#513543 - 04/09/02 11:24 PM
The Sudnow method
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Griffinator
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Anyone gone through this course? I mean, I've got 5 years of classical piano training, but it's been so long all I remember is the theory and notation. I want to get into playing rock keyboards (as my guitar skills pretty much don't measure up) - and I thought this might be a good way to fast-track to a competent level.
Is it a total waste of money? Or does it deliver?
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#513544 - 04/09/02 11:43 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Steve LeBlanc
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IMHO, FWIW...I think you're too old and experienced to get anything out of a course...you could be the exception but as a rule once people get to a certain age/experience level it just doesn't work to cram more info into your head.
John Lords didn't need no keyboard course to jam Rock keys...why would you?
My advice, take it or leave it, is to give yourself more credit...boost that confidence level and just play everyday.
All that said...I have heard good things about the Sudnow method, I suppose if you want to try that it couldn't hurt.
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#513546 - 04/09/02 11:53 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Cowfingers
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well, i was in the same situation a couple of years ago, so to play rock keys easily i just learned chords from songs on OLGA then improvised over the top of them. i found it worked pretty well (though my two hand independance isnt totaly up to scratch). getting a couple of scores of decent bands with keys and learning their music helped alot too - Jon Lord, Ray Manzerek, that kind of thing
good luck
-starfucker
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#513547 - 04/10/02 01:44 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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LiveMusic
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Griffinator, if you do a search on Keyboard forum for "Sudnow" you will find some posts I made.
In summary... I bought the course a year ago. Went through all the CDs, read the book, started "Misty." Gave it up for whatever reason. Maybe golf got in the way. Took it up little over a month ago, again. Now, I've wavered again, after getting halfway through Misty. I don't know if I'm going to stick to it or not. And I don't know if it has anything to do with his method. Maybe I'm just not good at structured methods. Because his deal takes time. I'd say at least a half hour a day, preferably an hour. And that's hard for me to do.
Conversely, in those other threads, I mentioned that I have taken a quantum leap forward just by learning how chords are constructed and playing my Yamaha PSR740 keyboard, which has auto-accompaniment. Blows me away how fast I advanced just by doing that. (I am not trained like you.)
I have been trying to decide if I'm going to do it or not, as I do like the proposed theory... that by learning a dozen or so "standards"... with rich, fat chord voicings from the getgo... and then, along the way, figuring out your own rich, fat voicings (as per his method)... that you end up in a year or so (or more, depending on lots of variables) being able to play by ear in grand style. That's what I want. Am I willing to do his method? I don't know yet. It's hard and tedious to me. I want to PLAY. I want to make MUSIC. I'm not as disciplined as I wish when it comes to practice stuff like that.
I am certain, however, that you would advance far faster than me. So, you might give it a shot. Also, I'll say... this guy talks REAL fast. As fast as anyone I've ever heard. He's brilliant. Entertaining. But a bit hard to follow. So, be prepared.
Basically, he proposes that piano teaching as the world knows it is bullshit. He would LOVE you. Because you are proof of his theory... that people who trained for years and then get away from it, can't remember how to play even what they spent years learning to play. He says with his method, you learn to play by ear, which he says is what everyone WANTS to do. And importantly, he says that with his method, you learn to build rich, fat chords, not plunk, plunk, plunk but very rich sounds.
My deal is I don't necessarily dig the sound of cocktail piano bar type stuff... the old standards... but if it would get me where I want to go, that'd be okay. It's not my bag at the moment, but even if I did if for no other reason that learning a dozen or so standards in cocktail piano bar style, that wouldn't be a bad thing to have under my belt. Only thing is, I'm not willing to do it for that reason alone. Because my bag is rock/pop/country.
And... I suspect that if I _did_ stick with his method, I would achieve my goal of playing by ear. Just not sure I'll stick with it. It will require quite a commitment.
It's weird. Or maybe it's not weird. I was gonna say... in golf, I _love_ to practice. I mean, I have almost as much fun practicing as I do playing. But with guitar/piano, nope. I'd rather play songs. It's hard for me to bite the bullet and do drills.
HOWEVER, it just occurred to me that practicing golf, there is more of an instantaneous end result, as there is in really playing golf (for me). I don't do many golf drills, in fact, hardly any. I either chip or putt or hit full shots over and over. But the end result is that I have the benefit of enjoying the track of the ball or the flight of the ball, as in real golf. Many golf instructors advocate drills but I have never been able to get into that. Maybe I should have but it's worked okay for me to just beat balls by the zillions.
Sorry, long-winded, as usual.
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#513548 - 04/13/02 01:03 AM
Re: The Sudnow method
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henrysb3
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I started taking piano and vocal lessons from the same teacher, one half hour after the next. It's costing me $20 a week, but I've translated some of the skills to my band playing and singing. I'm also getting some theory that helps me understand song structure better. I just decided that I'd reached a point in life when I could afford it, at least for a year or so.
You might look in your public library for a series of videotape lessons by a guy named Talc Tolchem (sp.). This guy's a cool keyboard player who gives some basic lessons with scales, crossovers, chords etc., then goes into a great ear training session with "A Little Help from my Friends". It's at least ten years old, so the technology he uses may seem arcane, but the lessons are really good. He does one tape on composition using a sequencer, again, nothing like what is available today, but the methodology is good, and the teacher (Talc) gets into a good groove almost right away.
BTW, is that Misty the "Look at me, I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree" Misty?
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#513549 - 04/13/02 03:50 AM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Dan South
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Originally posted by LiveMusic:
Griffinator, if you do a search on Keyboard forum for "Sudnow" you will find some posts I made.
In summary... I bought the course a year ago. Went through all the CDs, read the book, started "Misty." Gave it up for whatever reason. Maybe golf got in the way. Took it up little over a month ago, again. Now, I've wavered again, after getting halfway through Misty. I don't know if I'm going to stick to it or not. And I don't know if it has anything to do with his method. Maybe I'm just not good at structured methods. Because his deal takes time. I'd say at least a half hour a day, preferably an hour. And that's hard for me to do.
Conversely, in those other threads, I mentioned that I have taken a quantum leap forward just by learning how chords are constructed and playing my Yamaha PSR740 keyboard, which has auto-accompaniment. Blows me away how fast I advanced just by doing that. (I am not trained like you.)
I have been trying to decide if I'm going to do it or not, as I do like the proposed theory... that by learning a dozen or so "standards"... with rich, fat chord voicings from the getgo... and then, along the way, figuring out your own rich, fat voicings (as per his method)... that you end up in a year or so (or more, depending on lots of variables) being able to play by ear in grand style. That's what I want. Am I willing to do his method? I don't know yet. It's hard and tedious to me. I want to PLAY. I want to make MUSIC. I'm not as disciplined as I wish when it comes to practice stuff like that.
I am certain, however, that you would advance far faster than me. So, you might give it a shot. Also, I'll say... this guy talks REAL fast. As fast as anyone I've ever heard. He's brilliant. Entertaining. But a bit hard to follow. So, be prepared.
Basically, he proposes that piano teaching as the world knows it is bullshit. He would LOVE you. Because you are proof of his theory... that people who trained for years and then get away from it, can't remember how to play even what they spent years learning to play. He says with his method, you learn to play by ear, which he says is what everyone WANTS to do. And importantly, he says that with his method, you learn to build rich, fat chords, not plunk, plunk, plunk but very rich sounds.
My deal is I don't necessarily dig the sound of cocktail piano bar type stuff... the old standards... but if it would get me where I want to go, that'd be okay. It's not my bag at the moment, but even if I did if for no other reason that learning a dozen or so standards in cocktail piano bar style, that wouldn't be a bad thing to have under my belt. Only thing is, I'm not willing to do it for that reason alone. Because my bag is rock/pop/country.
And... I suspect that if I _did_ stick with his method, I would achieve my goal of playing by ear. Just not sure I'll stick with it. It will require quite a commitment.
It's weird. Or maybe it's not weird. I was gonna say... in golf, I _love_ to practice. I mean, I have almost as much fun practicing as I do playing. But with guitar/piano, nope. I'd rather play songs. It's hard for me to bite the bullet and do drills.
HOWEVER, it just occurred to me that practicing golf, there is more of an instantaneous end result, as there is in really playing golf (for me). I don't do many golf drills, in fact, hardly any. I either chip or putt or hit full shots over and over. But the end result is that I have the benefit of enjoying the track of the ball or the flight of the ball, as in real golf. Many golf instructors advocate drills but I have never been able to get into that. Maybe I should have but it's worked okay for me to just beat balls by the zillions.
Sorry, long-winded, as usual.
First, Duke, you don't want to hear this, but the more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it. You could spend a year following a structured method or ten years of noodling and trying various approaches. The faster method to success should be obvious. So if you REALLY want to "PLAY", you should find a way to stick with the method. In a short while, you WILL be playing.
With regard to the type of music presented in the lessons, I don't know of a single piano course that's geared to only songs that the player likes.  If you want to play football, you have to lift weights and do drills. Same with playing an instrument. It's not all just jamming on your top twenty tunes of all time. It's necessary to push yourself into uncomfortable areas in order to improve.
You say that you want to learn pop, rock, and country, right? Well, standards are more complicated harmonically than most songs in these idioms, so if you can get comfortable with Misty, Fly Me To The Moon, All Of Me, etc., rock and roll should be easy to pick up. And I'll be that after a while, you'll warm up to this music. It's important to see the songs presented in the lessons as a means to an end, not an end unto them themselves. Learn ten songs to be able to play ten thousand. Sounds like a bargain to me.
That said, I don't think it should take a year to learn to play by ear, at least simple things, so you're not going to have to wait the whole twelve months to see results. Furthermore, there's absolutely NO REASON why you can't start to figure out some of your favorite tunes at the same time that you're working on these lessons. You want to ENJOY music, not be a slave to it. Do what's required and then move (quickly) on to something fun.
Traditional lessons bullshit? Well, perhaps not completely, but I would tend to agree more than disagree. I know people who took ten or twelve years of piano lessons, got away from it for a few years, and now can't play a note. That tells me that something is VERY wrong with the process that they used to learn the instrument, regardless of how good they might have been at one time. They learned to react to symbols on a page instead of internalizing the underlying rules that made the music work in the first place. Classical teachers tell children NOT to play by ear, because they fear that if the kids start having fun, they're not going to be willing to work at reading. Reading is a critical skill for the serious musician and it's one that takes a lot of effort to learn. But it seems to me (a non-teacher) that it would be better to prime the student's "internal music computer" along the way. You want to develop a musician, not a human sequencer.
Some teachers are moving in this direction, but others cling to the old, unhelpful methods. I recently had a conversation with a young woman (early thirties) who was clearly a member of the old guard. She insisted that the students started reading from three books from lesson one. I took no issue with that, but when the subject of ear training came up, she dismissed it as "rote memorization." How pathetically stupid! Rote memorization is learning to play a tune by mimicking someone else. Ear training is the technology that links the musical ideas in the mind to the hands on the instrument. The ability to play by ear should be one of the goals of EVERY musician. At the same time, every musician should strive to be a competent sight reader. Any argument against either technique is foolhardy, but pushing one technique over the other is equally foolish.
Old Crusty Joke Number 1
Q: How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?
A: Put a piece of sheet music in front of him.
Old Crusty Joke Number 2
Q: How do you get a piano player to stop playing?
A: Take the sheet music AWAY from him.
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Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#513550 - 04/18/02 08:04 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Wrave
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OK, I'll bite the bullit and tell ya'all a little of my story. I started on guitar, taught beginners for a year or so and then played rhythm with some gguys until I went off to the Navy. Coming home nobody needed a second guitar (James Gang era) so I switched and played bass for 20+ years and one day put it in the case and have hardly touched it since then. A couple of years ago I got interested in making my own music again because I bought a Native American flute and fell in love with the tones and the peaceful mood it put me in.
One day, after buying some recording equipment to record my melodies, I decided that some strings in the background would sound good so I bought a synth. When I realized I didn't know much about keyboards, I signed up for piano lessons. Being taught the standard method, I am giving my first recital this coming Saturday evening, not because this was a goal but because a friend remarked that they'd yet to hear me play anything.
Sorry, this is a bit of a long story but I'll just say that I am nervous as heck. I performed for years and I know my keyboard work is less skilled than a seven year old that's had an equal amount of lessons. I suck! Right now I am dreading Saturday night and wondering why the heck I agreed to do this. When I started my goal was to learn enough synthesizer that I could sequence some backgrounds and NOT perform.
Still, if I look at the music I have been taught and instead of trying to "read" the music and just let my ear lead my fingers, I can play a few of these tunes halfways decently. Of course, there's no spontaniety or feeling as long as I concentrate on reading. You talk about "rote" learning.
So now, my goal is the same one I started out with. Learn enough to use the synth in some compositions that aren't found in any "lesson" book. Unfortunately, I am gonna have to get through this Saturday night before I get back to enjoying this again. The best news is my brother is coming (guitar) and he and I are gonna jam a little (get the bass outta the case) and I AM looking forward to that.
Folks, wish me luck!
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#513551 - 04/19/02 04:00 AM
Re: The Sudnow method
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sudeep
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does the sudnow method teach you how to play solo for these standards? (like cocktail piano) or is it more to play in a trio?
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#513552 - 04/19/02 11:52 AM
Re: The Sudnow method
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RobT
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Dan South - thanks for your reply. I was going to touch on something similar as what you get out of something is in proportion to what you put into it
So in saying that are there any keyboard hacks, beginners, etc who've tried this and seen it work?
I've done the 30 min to 1 hour thing just concentrating on music theory for about nine months or so and seen it really help my understanding. So I'm figuring I'd like to try my hand at improving my piano/keyboard skills. My first preference would be a real live teacher and until I find one that I like or comes recommended I think I'd like to try something like this.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
RobT
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RobT
Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
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#513553 - 04/20/02 02:55 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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LiveMusic
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Originally posted by sudeep_rao@hotmail.com:
does the sudnow method teach you how to play solo for these standards? (like cocktail piano) or is it more to play in a trio?
Yes, (to whomever asked it), the "Misty" is the one about "kitten up a tree."
Sudnow's songlist consists TOTALLY of standards. Songs that have at least two chords change per measure. All others are cast aside. He's a jazz guy and he only deals with standards. If there is a modern song that changes at least two chords per measure, I guess that would be just as good.
I keep coming back to Sudnow, knowing in my mind that he's on to something. And yes, Dan, he tells you in his material that you have major advancements along the way, even in the first six months to a year. (That even if you suffer through learning several songs and if it takes you a year, you still pass through nice voicing plateaus along the way, spurring you on.)
My point was that I can ALREADY pick out songs decently. Better on guitar than piano. But not good enough. Hence, my interest in his method. I feel confident I could get what I want by using his method. Just being honest, though, I have yet to stick to it. (Because it's hard and I have so much more to do musically that is more fun and not as hard.)
On piano, my fingers do not automatically go to the right chords as well as they do on guitar. He says that comes with time and that with his method, you will train your fingers to go to RICH, FAT chords, not just simple stuff.
Your advancement might be twice as fast or five times as fast as mine, depending upon what each brings to the table.
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#513554 - 04/20/02 04:44 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Griffinator
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I've actually decided to go for it. I have the theory, music reading, all that under my belt - this is a course I believe I can get excited enough about to work my way through the practices. Especially with an opportunity staring me in the face right now to play keys in a prog band that I write songs for.
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#513555 - 05/01/02 05:11 PM
Re: The Sudnow method
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Wrave
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Griffinator, I went ahead and ordered this method. I haven't started it as yet, still waiting to access some of the materials on the web site. I plan on going ahead with my regular keyboard lessons, that is serving as a good refresher in theory and reading and every other "formal" aspect of music that I gave up when I began performing.
My ear was pretty good when I quit performing but since I was a bassist I was listening to the low end and concentrating more on the rhythmic aspect. I can imagine this method broadening my knowledge base and providing an opportunity to develop "ear" skills that I have let grow a bit dusty.
Of course, my intention is not to get back into performing but to concentrate on writing and recording. And any study that keeps me in the music area will be helpful. It'll be interesting to maybe trade notes on this a bit later.
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