#513076 - 03/24/02 11:14 PM
Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dan South
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Have you ever agonized over a phrase while trying to find a rhyme for it? Have you ever rephrased what you wanted to say, or perhaps even changed the meaning of a line, to make it rhyme? Does this make sense?
Remember "Turn! Turn! Turn!" by the Byrds? The lyrics came from the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament. As far as I recall, the lyric doesn't contain a single intentional rhyme. Alliteration, yes. Rhythm and pace, certainly. Recognizable, repeated patterens, definitely. But no rhymes. Yet, the song was a BIG hit, and lots of other artists covered it.
So, why sacrifice meaning for a rhyme? (rhetorical quesiton)
When did rhyming lyrics become popular? Opera doesn't normally contain rhymes, does it? (non-rhetorical questions)
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#513077 - 03/24/02 11:17 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Imbecilia
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Originally posted by Dan South:
Have you ever agonized over a phrase while trying to find a rhyme for it? Have you ever rephrased what you wanted to say, or perhaps even changed the meaning of a line, to make it rhyme? Does this make sense?
Remember "Turn! Turn! Turn!" by the Byrds? The lyrics came from the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament. As far as I recall, the lyric doesn't contain a single intentional rhyme. Alliteration, yes. Rhythm and pace, certainly. Recognizable, repeated patterens, definitely. But no rhymes. Yet, the song was a BIG hit, and lots of other artists covered it.
So, why sacrifice meaning for a rhyme? (rhetorical quesiton)
When did rhyming lyrics become popular? Opera doesn't normally contain rhymes, does it? (non-rhetorical questions)
-> See my own Thread! *lol*
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#513078 - 03/24/02 11:47 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dak Lander
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No, but it can be harder to come up with a straightforward melody. The song I posted on the "Is your music any good" post doesn't have a rhyme.
The one posted on the Raw Songwriting Sessions does & another one that I'm working on has a weird rhyming pattern. The first line of the first verse rhymes with the first line of second verse. Second line, first verse to second line second verse & so on.
If the words are there & a melody is there, use it.
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#513079 - 03/24/02 11:55 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Imbecilia
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Originally posted by daklander:
another one that I'm working on has a weird rhyming pattern. The first line of the first verse rhymes with the first line of second verse. Second line, first verse to second line second verse & so on.
If the words are there & a melody is there, use it.
Or take "21st Schizoid Man" by King Crimson. I adapted that pattern one day for my "The Lord`s Supper".
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#513080 - 03/25/02 01:06 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Tedster
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Think in terms of Cheap Trick's "Surrender". Again, no rhymes. But, it makes it a bit harder to remember the words when they don't rhyme. But I'd say what I wanna say...perhaps striving for a rhyme, but if it ain't there, I'm not gonna sweat it...
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#513081 - 03/25/02 01:33 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dak Lander
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Originally posted by Imbecilia:
I would not call this weird. Weird are the rhyming patterns of Roger Waters - look at the lyrics for "The Pros And Cons Of Hitch-Hiking"...
Or take "21st Schizoid Man" by King Crimson. I adapted that pattern one day for my "The Lord`s Supper".[/QB]
I dropped by your web site. Sorry man, I can't read German very well. I will take some time & see if I can find your tune.
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#513082 - 03/25/02 01:46 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Imbecilia
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Originally posted by daklander: Originally posted by Imbecilia:
I would not call this weird. Weird are the rhyming patterns of Roger Waters - look at the lyrics for "The Pros And Cons Of Hitch-Hiking"...
Or take "21st Schizoid Man" by King Crimson. I adapted that pattern one day for my "The Lord`s Supper".
I dropped by your web site. Sorry man, I can't read German very well. I will take some time & see if I can find your tune.[/QB]
If you searched for "The Lord`s Supper" you`ll find the lyrics here:
http://www.hexachord.org/Lyrics.htm
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#513083 - 03/25/02 04:39 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dak Lander
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Originally posted by Imbecilia:
[QB[/QB]
If you searched for "The Lord`s Supper" you`ll find the lyrics here:
http://www.hexachord.org/Lyrics.htm [/QB][/QUOTE]
THE LORD`S SUPPER (August 1998)
After threshold`s creed
Reversal psychos bleed
Punctual take your seat
The lord`s supper of blood and meat
Squeak out willow the wisp
Mechanized all plastic
A leviathan is on the lift
A dark mazurka calls you to the ship
Burn down civic filth
Metamorphosis sigma six
Honey sheep call the megs
Clamorous tatter city of rags
Whisper the great man`s name
Before you join in the game
Ghostly ghoulish miles insane
The lord`s supper in an ancient frame
Every line rhymes in an exact or semblance of a rhyme.
Here's a sample & I'm not putting in anything other than the pertinent lines, OK?
1st line, 1st verse:
I remember the night
finish the verse & no rhymes, then the first line of the chorus, not intended, happens to be:
So we danced all the night
(4 lines in that chorus)
(there are 5 lines of verse between 1st verse & chorus)
1st line, 2nd verse:
You were such a sight
finish the verse and no rhymes & so on...
Make sense? It's not even close to what you have there as far as weird rhymes go.
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#513084 - 03/25/02 05:23 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Bobro
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A mix of slant rhyme, straight rhyme, a little alliteration spread out so it's not too obvious, and some punning works for me.
your firm buttocks
couldn't crack 'em with a mattox
should I break the sod
and salt my cod
or simply slap the haddock?
-CB
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#513085 - 03/25/02 06:05 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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halljams
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Given that as i write words, i always am hearing a melody along with them, and that is determining my syllable count, or having an effect on it anyway, i always decide how necessary the rhyme is but what is happening at that point in the song and whether a rhyme is as important as tying together a statement or maby getting a rhythm to standout or cap off at the end of a phrase.
Basically, it's what ever feels the most important, takes precedence.
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#513086 - 03/25/02 01:30 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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LiveMusic
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I've been reading songwriting books for six months now. I am now convinced that the lyric doesn't "have to" rhyme. There are terrific songs that don't rhyme at all. However, I find that I do it automatically. And it sure seems cool when a song is well-written and it DOES rhyme. I marvel at great rhyming lyrics.
And I am also convinced that rhymes can be soft rhymes and be just fine, the heck with Jimmy Webb and Steven Sondheim. It's great that they strive for that but Jeez, it sure frees you up some to be okay with soft rhymes. There are countless songs that I am crazy about that contain soft rhymes.
_________________________
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For ~courteous~ musicians
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#513087 - 03/25/02 03:56 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Anifa
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Dan,
In your original message you wrote:
So, why sacrifice meaning for a rhyme? (rhetorical quesiton)
Often times it is not necessary to sacrifice the meaning for the rhyme once you learn a few techniques utilized by experienced songwriters. Two of the most beneficial tools that I have found in songwriting have been the Thesaurus and the Rhyming Dictionary; I use both frequently.
The Thesaurus offers a variety of synonyms ranging drastically in syllable count and pronounciation. If you are experiencing difficulties in ryhming a word without changing the intent, reference the word in question in the Thesaurus, this works well also in helping to gain the proper syllable count. If you cannot find a word that rhymes with the word you are using in the alternate verse, then try running a check on that word to see if perhaps you can change it to a word that will work with the rhythm and rhyme in the other verse. Keep the rhyming dictionary handy to view all the options, plus, it helps to give you many ideas of single or multiple syllable counts. I do not know if it is allowed to post hyperlinks to websites within this forum since I am a new user, but if it is permitted and someone authorizes me to do so I will post it. I have a professional music resource website that has a page set up for songwriter tools. It includes links to an online thesaurus and a rhyming dictionary, also it has many other options and features for music business professionals.
Prior to learning about the tools and tricks of songwriting, I used to ponder for hours on trying to find a rhyme... Yes, I like the rhymes although they are not absolutely necessay. As mentioned by Tedster, it helps to make a song easier to remember when there is a rhyming pattern present in the lyrics. A quickly memorable lyric accompanied by a catchy tune is what makes a hit song and Producers seek marketability when selecting materials for their Artists' upcoming projects. The more philosohpical free verse style songs that do not contain rhymes are not as likely to be selected for production projects as are those that instantly grab ones' attention.
AniFa
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#513088 - 03/25/02 04:54 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Sylver
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Yes, a thesuarus is a must when writing lyrics, whether they rhyme or not. Lyrics don't have to rhyme, but as in the original post, it does have to have SOMETHING to hold the phrases together. Meter, alliteration, and other prose devices anchor the lyrics to the music. I would say especially meter is important.
But to me, a well crafted lyric is an amazing thing. A well crafted lyric that makes use of rhyming and meter, AND that makes sense in it's content and message, AND is matched in intensity and emotion by the music is a thing of beauty.
Grammer on the other hand, can be thrown out the window.
Jack
_________________________
I really don't know what to put here.
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#513089 - 03/25/02 05:26 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Imbecilia
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Originally posted by daklander: Originally posted by Imbecilia:
[QB
If you searched for "The Lord`s Supper" you`ll find the lyrics here:
http://www.hexachord.org/Lyrics.htm [/QB]
After threshold`s creed
Reversal psychos bleed
Punctual take your seat
The lord`s supper of blood and meat
Squeak out willow the wisp
Mechanized all plastic
A leviathan is on the lift
A dark mazurka calls you to the ship
Burn down civic filth
Metamorphosis sigma six
Honey sheep call the megs
Clamorous tatter city of rags
Whisper the great man`s name
Before you join in the game
Ghostly ghoulish miles insane
The lord`s supper in an ancient frame
Every line rhymes in an exact or semblance of a rhyme.
Here's a sample & I'm not putting in anything other than the pertinent lines, OK?
1st line, 1st verse:
I remember the night
finish the verse & no rhymes, then the first line of the chorus, not intended, happens to be:
So we danced all the night
(4 lines in that chorus)
(there are 5 lines of verse between 1st verse & chorus)
1st line, 2nd verse:
You were such a sight
finish the verse and no rhymes & so on...
Make sense? It's not even close to what you have there as far as weird rhymes go.[/QB][/QUOTE]
The weird rhyme patterns are in ROGER WATERS' Lyrics, not in mine or KC's. You misunderstood me.
I just like the pattern in "21st schizoid man" and adapted it. Itīs not very weird. I know.
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#513090 - 03/25/02 05:46 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Anifa
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After browsing through the forums a bit, I feel comfortable in posting the hyperlink to the page containing the online thesaurus and rhyming dictionary, you may wish to bookmark it to keep it around for when you are writing. MusicBizBuzz Tablatures, Fonts and Writing Assistants
Musical Regards,
AniFa
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#513091 - 03/25/02 08:09 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dan South
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To those of you who like to use a thesaurus and other reference materials, more power to you, but it's never worked for me. I have yet to find a practical application for a thesaurus on ANY type of writing project.
In songwriting - again, only my experience -these tools lead to awkward rhymes and phrases. I have a fairly extensive vocabulary. If I have never heard of a particular word, it's probably too obscure to use in a song anyway. For me, the best approach is to relax, take a little time, and let a solution dawn on me. Again, if rhyming dictionaries work for you, that's terrific. For me, these tools detract from the process. Would you search for melodic ideas in a thesaurus of scales? You might discover some interesting stuff, but my bet is that the end product will sound forced or contrived.
Sir Paul McCartney, in a song of encouragement that he wrote for a young songwriter (Julian Lennon), gave us a number of hints -
- the movement you need is on your shoulder
- you're waiting for someone to perform with
- so let it out and let it in, hey (songwriter), begin
- and don't you know that it's just you ... you'll do
- take a sad song and make it better
- don't be afraid
- any time you feel the pain ... refrain
- etc.
Use whatever tools work for you. Everyone's creative process is unique. Personally, I prefer to trust my head and my heart than a whole library of reference books.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#513092 - 03/25/02 09:01 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Anifa
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As a thesaurus is a critical tool for seasoned songwriters, I am not saying that it needs to be used in all instances. As far as rhyming goes, if you have began a song using a rhyming format, then you need to keep the structure throughout the song. This is a time when the tool comes in handy. Some of the absolute greatest groups in history have written masterpieces not using rhyme. I have not listened to it lately, but if I'm not mistaking, Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd does not have an absolute rhyming pattern, but in no way does the song lack. It is one of the greatest songs that I have ever heard. It all depends on the song, the performance and the market that you are targeting as to how critical it is to have a rhyme. It takes a talent to bring the listeners back for more and more, and although I cannot remember the verses written inside of many of Pink Floyd's tunes since the many do not have absolute rhymes; I would stop the what I'm doing to turn up the tune and listen. They are breathtaking; it's the message that is relayed and the musicianship that keeps people returning over and over again and they will continue to attract new listeners throughout time.
No rhyme is NOT necessary, but it does not need to pose a problem to those who choose to utilize rhyme. I agree that music is of the heart, and to depend on crutches can sometimes take away from the sentimentality of writing a song. I do not normally need to use tools when writing as words seem to flow naturally; but I am not opposed to making my life easier when I'm crunched against a deadline. Also, I'm not opposed to fine tuning a good song and making it great.
AniFa
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#513093 - 03/25/02 10:23 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Cowfingers
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just out of intrest, how many times have you seen (or done) a little list down the side of the lyrics sheet, with a load of words that rhyme with a line yourve just finished?
(does that make sense?!)
-starfucker
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#513094 - 03/26/02 12:42 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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coolhouse
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While there are some excellent examples of non-rhyming
hit songs that have been pointed out,I would offer this qualifying caveat.
If you do not have a record deal,and are trying to get a song cut,it better rhyme. Also the syllable count should be meticulous,there should be no gender switching,soft rhymes should be pretty darn close,and you may not sacrifice meaning for rhyme...or vice versa. Those who have yet to fatten anyone's bank account are not allowed to bend the rules.
later,
Mike
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#513095 - 03/26/02 12:44 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Anifa
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As I am not here to defend my purpose, but rather to offer my advice. If your question is directed at me Starfucker; I do not need a list running down the side of my page. When I run into a writers' block, I don't linger on the subject, I use reference directories to resolve the issues and move on to the next project.
I merely stopped by these message boards to get a feel as to how well the message boards offered by Infopop Corporation performed. I have been reviewing different options for putting a forum inside of my own commercial site and being of a musical nature, I felt compelled to offer my input.
Here is just a short sample of my writing style, and on this one, I did not need any crutches because the words flowed naturally.
Detours
When you find you're on a dead end highway
And you're not exactly where you want to be
Do you stop at the end and wait for progress
When you know this is not your destiny
When your fuel gage is setting on empty
And you're running your engine to the ground
Do you wait for someone to build that highway
Or do you back up and go around
(chorus)
Life is a road
A road with many detours
Stairways are scattered throughout time
Sometimes you have to back away to move ahead
unh hunh, How far you get is how far you climb
...............................................
There is more, but this is just to give you an idea as to my style of writing.
AniFa
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#513096 - 03/26/02 04:37 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dan South
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Originally posted by coolhouse:
If you do not have a record deal,and are trying to get a song cut,it better rhyme. Also the syllable count should be meticulous,there should be no gender switching,soft rhymes should be pretty darn close,and you may not sacrifice meaning for rhyme...or vice versa. Those who have yet to fatten anyone's bank account are not allowed to bend the rules.
The reason that I brought up the mildly troublemaking thread  was to inspire younger writers to CONSIDER a little flexibility. When I hear or read lyrics by inexperienced songwriters, I notice a tendency toward iron fisted rhyme schemes that somtimes result in awkward phrasing or a contrived tone to the lyric. My suggestion, and I think most others have echoed this, is that it's okay to loosen up a bit.
Granted, very few "hit" songs are completely rhyme free. I'm not suggesting that as an ideal. But I think it's fine to skip a rhyme here and there, or change your rhyme pattern at unpredictable intervals EVEN IF YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOP YOUR SONG. Sometimes a dash of variation can make an otherwise well-structured lyric that much more catchy.
Rappers, by the way, are masters at this. (Well, GOOD rappers, that is.) I think that as lyric writers, we can learn a lot from rappers, the way they use alliteration, the way they shift rhyme patterns to build and release tension, the imagery that they paint.
I didn't mean to suggest that rhyme-free songs are the way to go. Sorry if it came across that way. I don't write rhyme-free songs, but I do like flexible rhyme schemes. I think they add to the song, and I'll bet that many of your favorite songs employ this technique. Be cool.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#513097 - 03/26/02 01:45 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dan Worley
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Don't force a rhyme. That's no good. But don't run away from them either. If anything feels clumsy in your mouth (or head), it's going to sound clumsy when it comes out, and it's best to look for something better.
I like internal rhymes that aren't on the end-words. I especially like internal slant rhymes. Of course, you can use these with end-word rhymes, making things even more interesting. It happens accidently a lot of the time, it's just the way our mind works.
I've had songs that I thought for sure needed to rhyme on the end-words (of whichever number line); only to have my writing partner rewrite them without the rhymes, and I've liked some of them better that way. Some songs (and I think most, but I haven't given it much thought) just have to have the end rhyme. They just won't work without it. It's like a resolve.
Could you imagine the Beatles' "Getting Better" without the rhymes? Now that wouldn't be good.
Regards,
Dan Worley
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#513098 - 03/26/02 03:01 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Lee Flier
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I think you have to have an inner "compass" that tells you whether something works in a song. This applies to a lot of things, not just whether a lyric has to rhyme, but that's one of the things your compass needs to tell you. Some songs just wouldn't work at all if they didn't rhyme, other times it doesn't matter, most time it matters in some parts of the song and not in others. The key is actually knowing when it works and when it doesn't!
--Lee
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#513099 - 03/26/02 06:29 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Dan Worley
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
I think you have to have an inner "compass" that tells you whether something works in a song. This applies to a lot of things, not just whether a lyric has to rhyme, but that's one of the things your compass needs to tell you. Some songs just wouldn't work at all if they didn't rhyme, other times it doesn't matter, most time it matters in some parts of the song and not in others. The key is actually knowing when it works and when it doesn't!
--Lee
Regards,
Dan Worley
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#513100 - 03/26/02 10:33 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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coolhouse
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Hi Dan, (South in this instance)
I have no problem with mixing it up. Many songwriters in the 60's (including just about all of my favorites)had little use for the considerations I listed. However,most of those people were doing their own songs on their own albums.
Some of the greatest songwriters in rock history would not be able to get their songs cut in todays market if they were acting solely as songwriters. I don't like it,but I can't afford to ignore it either. My post was intended as a reality check for those interested in pursuing songwriting as a career.
Maybe it's time for the 60's to come around again. 
Minus 'Nam & bad acid of course. 
later,
Mike
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#513101 - 03/27/02 05:04 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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Cowfingers
Gold Member
Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 625
Loc: Cork ,IRELAND
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As I am not here to defend my purpose, but rather to offer my advice. If your question is directed at me Starfucker; I do not need a list running down the side of my page
-starfucker
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#513102 - 03/27/02 07:37 PM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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LiveMusic
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 4727
Loc: Louisiana
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The rhyming dictionary, I find invaluable. I think most songs are NOT written from inspiration but by crafting the song. What's the difference between me sitting there for four hours until I come up with a great rhyme for a line versus spending three minutes in a rhyming book. Nothing, to me. I only use it when I'm stuck but man, I whip it out in a heartbeat. I see no problem whatsoever in using one. Of course, maybe all my songs suck, I don't know.
By the way, some of the most successful songwriters of all time use one. If it's okay with them, it's okay with me. When I finally bought one, I thought man, why didn't I get one of these sooner!
Coolhouse, being in Nashville, I guess you write some (or all?) country songs. Good luck to you, by the way! I think you're the one who is seriouly pursuing writing? I am always amused when people slam today's country songs like they're all garbage. Phooey. The songs on country radio, most of them are extremely well-crafted. I tip my hat to the writers. Yes, many fit the predicted mold but many of them are just clever as hell. Sometimes I hear one and think, man, that is GOOD!
_________________________
> > > smallGig.com < < <
For ~courteous~ musicians
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#513103 - 03/28/02 01:51 AM
Re: Does a lyric need to rhyme?
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coolhouse
Senior Member
Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 250
Loc: Lafayette,TN,UNITED STATES
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Thanks for the good wishes Duke. Yeah,I'm trying to crack the big nut which in this case is country radio. You're right,of course,radio is no different now than it's ever been;some good,some bad.
later,
Mike
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