#512827 - 03/22/02 12:02 AM
i can't finish songs
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carne_de_res
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 210
Loc: udine,AK,ITALY
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my problem is that i can't ever finish songs.
i'll get a chorus in my head,but the verse will never come.
or i'll get a melody that to me sounds like a verse,so i'll try and search a good chorus...noway.
i don't have any real musical education and structuring chords is not my forte,
but I KNOW there's a songwriter in me.good,bad,i don't know.i just know that
i like writing melodies that never end up has a finished song.
have you got any tips for this poor musician?
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#512828 - 03/22/02 01:26 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Jedi
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I'll tell you like one of my elders(who's starting to get smart in his old age) told me. Three ways to becoming a better songwriter.
1. Write.
2. Write.
3. Write.
If you're just beginning that's great. Finish a song. One by one. Finish the song . Notice I said finish, I didn't say judge. If ,when you Finish the Song , you realize that they really don't represent you(I nice way of saying you know the song could be better) don't worry about it. Allow your songs to suck for a while. A song can suck, that's O.K. Just keep writing and finishing songs.
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#512829 - 03/22/02 01:49 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Tedster
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To add a couple of thoughts...
You may consider getting a partner. Even the great Maclen Music team had these problems...I've posted on it on another thread on this here forum....
The other thing...and I need to take a dose of my own advice:
As Jedi said...some great songs have come from just writing volumes of stuff. Motown, in its heyday, had like three teams of writers. Each team would have to write 5 songs...A DAY...what is that, like 75 songs a week for all three teams? Well, at the end of the week, they'd sit down and listen to all the tunes. Of those 75...maybe 10 would actually get recorded, and of those ten, maybe 2 or 3 would get any airplay at all...much less those that were top hits. So, the philosophy was shoot a scatter gun against the wall and see what sticks.
As legend has it, when Tom Petty first moved from Gainesville to L.A...he got with a producer. Petty had like 100 songs. The producer told him only 10 of 'em were good enough to record. So that "Scatter gun" philosophy worked for Petty, too...
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#512830 - 03/22/02 01:54 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Jedi
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I had to post in the middle before I got kicked off line. Now What was I saying? Oh yes, finish the song.
I know you're probably saying, "If I knew how to do that I wouldn't be asking, DUMBASS."
But really, there is no magic formula IMO. It's like, for example, if someone asked "How do I stop overeating," one could answer by not putting too much food in one's mouth.
I keep over emphasizing the point of finishing the song no matter how odd or off or stupid some of the parts may be, because that is the only way for your writing to improve. Just take the judgements out of the equation. Don't Judge, just write. That's the secret. Writing is not a gift, it's a process. Some are hardwired for it, some have to work for it, but regardless of that bullshit, nothing improves songwriting better than completed songs. Even if they suck, especially if they suck. I used to have the same problem. In my case, I thought every song I wrote had to be the best thing since sliced bread and butter, and by putting all that unnecessary pressure on myself led to no songs, and therefore, no improvement. Don't give #%!!. Let them be. They'll grow, you'll grow, and the funny thing is when you look back over your earlier work you'll have one helluva of laugh.(or you might be surprised-something in there might be a keeper)
Hope this helps,
Jedi
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#512831 - 03/22/02 02:00 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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BassGuy
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Registered: 02/17/02
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Carne,
The chorus should sum up the point you're making with the song, in its most concise and memorable form.
The verses explain how you got to that point. Versus should tell the story beginning to end; or go from small to large; or from top to bottom; or from his point of view to her point of view; etc.
If you have a chorus, then think what kind of progression of ideas in the verses would justify the conclusion reached lyrically in the chorus. Write any old words to get down the ideas. Then revise the words to fit a consistent meter and rhyme scheme.
Once you have words for verses, they'll often suggest a melody. Combine the melody with an instrumental riff that contrasts with the hook of the chorus.
Voila, you're done.
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#512832 - 03/22/02 02:02 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Rim
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Registered: 02/21/02
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Loc: Alexandria,VA,US
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I'm having the same problem and I've been reading some books. Here's what may make sense in your situation: learn song structure.
Lyrically, if you have a chorus, then the verses have to support it but each verse has to add something new. The verses should also not say the same thing as the chorus. For example, if you're writing how good love is in the chorus, the first verse could be how you met, the second verse how it turned sour and the third how you got back together. This is also a good example of writing a song that goes somewhere - like writing a story or movie. You should try to establish the characters, introduce the conflict, and then end with a resolution.
Melodically, the verses should also be different than the chorus. Does your chorus contain few words and long, held notes? Then try making the verse contain more words per measure with shorter notes. Does your chorus melody contain fairly large intervals (skips notes of the scale)? Then try making the verse melody go up in down in steps, not skipping too many notes in between. Try to make the chord progression of the chorus different from the verses. If the chorus starts with a major chord, try starting the verse with a minor chord (try the relative minor - if you know what that means).
Before other folks start yelling at me  , yes, there are a ton of great songs out there that don't fit this scheme. I just want to give some concrete things to try which may or may not work, but should keep the songwriting process moving.
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#512833 - 03/22/02 10:39 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Faust D
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Songwriting is 15% inspiration 95% perspiration. So first be willing to give 110%. The 15% inspiration is that verse or chorus that just comes to you be it God, a little nymph, abusing your physical self, whatever. The other 95% is what songwriting is; very diffficult very creative work ripped out from your heart and mind. Learn as much as you can about chord movements and great hooks. Then be prepared to work your brain to its' limits.
It is so very worth it.
Faust D
_________________________
It's not that I am developmentally disabled ... I just have a latency problem.
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#512834 - 03/22/02 12:59 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Jedi
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It is so very worth it.
Faust D
I love the concrete advice you guys are giving on this thread. I'm also glad that we all acknowledge that there are songs where those techniques may not apply. In short, the techniques given are useful, as long as they don't become a prison. The song, ultimately, must come from the source of your being. The more from the source the better it will be.
Namaste
Jedi
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#512835 - 03/22/02 06:05 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Nickelg11
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Hi Carne!
I had/have that problem too. I have a ton of songs that aren't finished, but as I think someone else posted, you should trust yourself to just finish a song. Pick one of your chorus ideas and committ to finish it! If you don't like the final outcome -YOU CAN CHANGE IT!!!
When you get just one song done, it will probably give you the confidence to go on to the next one and the next one. I think if you are coming up with so many ideas, there are many more in there!! just go for it.
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#512836 - 03/22/02 06:17 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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strat0124
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Registered: 04/03/01
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I don't know many songwriters that don't have 100 ideas waiting to be put together, with no set finish in sight. I've been hashing together twenty years of songs I've written for an upcoming project, thats gonna use several musicians and singers that play in different bands/groups in my area. Its tough when you have limited time to devote. Add a family in the mix, a job, if you own a home, pets, social comittments, and if you gig regularly....doesn't leave much "Me" time.
My only suggestion is to have some way to record little sketches. I have a notepad in my truck, another by my chair in the living room, and I built a studio in my garage so I can walk in within ten minutes and "record" ideas. You can do it without a studio though. I used a walk in closet for years as control room, bedroom and living room as live rooms!!!! You don't even need to get fancy, get a little minidisc and you're rollin. I used to have a little digital voice recorder that served me well for those super cool phrases you think of driving down the road, or whatever. My problem is I lose alot of sleep because those full arrangements are in my head all the @#$%ing time. I damn near have to medicate myself to stop the overactive mind thing. Funny though.....my wife doesn't see my mind that way....
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#512837 - 03/24/02 10:04 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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SkiNNY MulLIGan
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you think you got it bad......i have a thousand songs i haven't even STARTED yet..... 
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#512838 - 03/25/02 02:08 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Tedster
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Well put, Rammer. I have a different problem. Sometimes I can't finish posts. I lose my tr
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#512839 - 03/25/02 05:59 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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SkiNNY MulLIGan
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Tedster...i know what you mean...the hardest part for me is comin..................................
cking bridge
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#512840 - 03/25/02 10:04 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Dan South
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Registered: 01/04/02
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Loc: Metuchen,NJ,UNITED STATES
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I'd be careful about the "volume" dimension. If your top priority is to write thousands of songs, you may not spend enough time on each of them to give it your best shot. However, the converse is true, as well. You don't want to get stuck forever trying to perfect a small number of projects.
The key is to force yourself to finish every song, even if you have to write a goofy, nonsensical lyric to do so. Just write SOMETHING! ANYTHING! Select words at random from the newspaper and see what you get. It's easier to improve a mediocre lyric than to create a brilliant song out of nothing.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#512841 - 03/26/02 02:12 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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coolhouse
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Registered: 03/18/01
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Loc: Lafayette,TN,UNITED STATES
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Carne,
Some great advice here! Jedi,Nicole,and Dan all nailed it. It might help you to think in terms of being in it for the long run. At your present stage of development,writing the perfect song may not be possible. In time,however,becoming a great songwriter is entirely possible. Good luck! Keep writing!
later,
Mike
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#512842 - 03/26/02 01:43 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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PWP
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carne,
you sound exactly like me.it was almost like hering myself be explained.i have about a million ideas for a chorus or melody but thats where it stops.i have never ever finished a whole song and i have been scared to get a partner because i felt like they would get frustrated with me or feel that they were wasting their time with me.but through it all i have always knownthat there is a songwriter in me and i am still waiting on my first song to pop out!also like you i really have no musical education and i am just trying to wing.it eases my mind to know that i am not the only one though.
sincerely,
wayne
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#512843 - 03/27/02 05:23 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Mark LaCoste
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Registered: 05/19/00
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Yep. Me too, Carne and PWP. Hard to finish! I recently attended a songwriting workshop -- not hoping to learn much, but to set time aside for writing and give a push in that direction. It did work. I completed one song and added to some of the hundreds of unfinished ones. It's really like a muscle, you know. It can atrophy with disuse or become strong with excercise. That said, I think we three have a certain problem that hasn't been addressed by the many excellent and well meaning posts in this thread.
When I have a good idea for a chorus, verse, whatever (this happens most often while playing guitar) I usually have a good guitar part, and certain words seem to "suggest themselves". This should give me the framework of the song. It all works together, and I know the result would be a good song. It is difficult to complete the song (or even just the verse/chorus/whatever) with this framework intact. Seems like too many constraints, and yet IF I ONLY COULD...
_________________________
Rubber Lizard Studio
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#512844 - 03/27/02 06:24 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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Dan South
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Registered: 01/04/02
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Originally posted by Rubber Lizard Studios:
Yep. Me too, Carne and PWP. Hard to finish! I recently attended a songwriting workshop -- not hoping to learn much, but to set time aside for writing and give a push in that direction. It did work. I completed one song and added to some of the hundreds of unfinished ones. It's really like a muscle, you know. It can atrophy with disuse or become strong with excercise. That said, I think we three have a certain problem that hasn't been addressed by the many excellent and well meaning posts in this thread.
When I have a good idea for a chorus, verse, whatever (this happens most often while playing guitar) I usually have a good guitar part, and certain words seem to "suggest themselves". This should give me the framework of the song. It all works together, and I know the result would be a good song. It is difficult to complete the song (or even just the verse/chorus/whatever) with this framework intact. Seems like too many constraints, and yet IF I ONLY COULD...
One thing came to mind when you mentioned starting with a guitar part. I was trying to build a song around a cool riff one time, and I couldn't get anywhere. Finally, I decided to place the riff at the beginning and the end of the song and between the verses. Until I gave myself to come up with different music for the verses and chorus, I was stuck. I felt like the chimp with his hand stuck in the cookie jar. He can't break free, because he won't let go of the cookie.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#512845 - 03/27/02 07:38 PM
Re: i can't finish songs
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carne_de_res
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Registered: 02/21/01
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thank you all.lots of precious advice here,you all have been great to me.
you'll be happy to know that i'm finishing me first song.it's a love song about i girl i miss...words don't come easily,but i feel like i'm onto something good (decent,that is).
i have lots of questions on songwriting,so i'll stick to this cooool forum.
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#512846 - 03/28/02 03:55 AM
Re: i can't finish songs
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SkiNNY MulLIGan
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Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 113
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"a love song about a girl you miss"...now why didn't i think of that????....lol...just kidding, if it comes from the heart, it will show....good luck
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