#512639 - 03/21/02 06:10 PM
Tips needed!
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Joachim P. Dyndale
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Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 1260
Loc: My den in Oslo, Norway
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I know this really is different from person to person, but I'll askk anyway:
1) Is there such as thing as "the best way to start writing a song is..."?
2)Lyrics or melody first?
I'd really appriciate it if anyone would care to share his/her song-writing experiences... How do YOU do it?
Regards,
Joachim Dyndale
_________________________
-Joachim Dyndale -------------------- Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits My Blog...
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#512640 - 03/21/02 06:39 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Deathtoallwhoopposeme
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Registered: 06/17/01
Posts: 341
Loc: Eagle River, Alaska USA
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It's a Preference..i'll usually come up with a piece of music that lends itself to some cool melodic ideas. Sometimes it's a RIFF, other times it's changes or chords. Then I start filling in the holes with melodies and after i get a good skelton, the words start happening. Sometimes i'll have a clear idea what I want the song to be about, sometimes it just develops out of me looking for some cool phrase or catch title...But I'll always write the song about something that has personal significance. If you don't put a nice chunk of yourself into it, it's not real..It's just one of those cookie cutter, paid staff writer pieces of trash...And you CAN hear the difference....Just listen to Country Radio....I also tend to think a lot or Great tunes have some type of universal theme many people can relate to. Also, I Lean towards believing that Melody is KING...the Single most imporant element is a strong melody. That's what's gonna grab people first..They will be humming it before they even know the words. Getting a great melody, interesting lyrics and some decent changes(not just stock major minor, 1-4-5 type progressions--add something interesting!), all together in one 4 minute song and you'll have GOLD...Now, first you have to have the talent, then develop it and work the craft..It's a process....Good luck.
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#512641 - 03/21/02 07:45 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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JLsound
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Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 365
Loc: Stratford,CT,UNITED STATES
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I write music first, and force fit the melody. I only have one song that I actually came up with a melody first, but it took me a while to put the music behind it. Generally, I am more comfortable with writing music first.
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#512642 - 03/21/02 08:09 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Philip O'Keefe
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
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Boy, it really depends on the writer(s) and the situation...
As a producer, I occasionally do co-writing with artists. In those cases, I'm basically working on re-writes of existing material, or fleshing out a prelim. idea the artist / writer has. Sometimes that means writing a bridge, reworking a chorus, etc. etc. For me, this is probably one of the easiest forms of writing - collaboration. Nothing gets me going faster than a great idea. The energy of that - the excitement - really inspires me, and hopefully, my ideas and contributions inspire my writing partner(s) and the song benefits.
When writing by myself, I normally write concurrently. I'll sit down at a piano or guitar and start playing an idea I was hearing in my head and work on fleshing it out. Melodic, harmonic, rhythmic and lyrical ideas all get worked on at the same general time. And even though I have a very nice studio, I normally don't work in a DAW or with loops or drum machine patterns. It's normally a pencil, manuscript paper, a piano or acoustic guitar, and maybe a small handheld digital recorder for taking notes, recording idea snippets, etc. That's it. I work on arrangement things later - even though I may have some very specific ideas of where I want to go with that as I'm writing. But I just find it easier to concentrate on WRITING and not have to worry about engineering. I like the flow of things better that way...
Sometimes the inspiration is a word or phrase. Sometimes it's a melodic "hook" or rhythmic figure / pattern, but my methodology is usually the same.
I HAVE written lyrics first, but I always seem to be less than satisfied with the results I get when doing the music second. Certainly that approach can work for other writers though. Look at Elton John / Bernie Taupin. But for me, it's normally easier to write lyrics at the same time as the melody or to write the melody first and then work on the lyrics later.
So my suggestion is to TRY writing in different ways - they don't have to be your greatest songs (people tend to "edit" themselves too much in the initial "creative" stage anyway - there's plenty of time for that later...) - just write! And see which method(s) YOU'RE most comfortable with.
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://www.ssrstudio.com
pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com
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#512644 - 03/21/02 08:25 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Steve LeBlanc
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Registered: 12/22/00
Posts: 6091
Loc: Los Angeles, CA,UNITED STATES
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I don't think there are any rules...I write both and all ways...sometimes I just have one line that I wrote on a napkin or something...that one line will come up in a jam later then even later I'll think of a bunch of lyrics to go with the line.
On some songs I just sat down with some coffee or a beer (depending on time of day  ) and wrote all the words in less than 20 minutes without any tune in my head.
I have quite a few that the entire melody was written for months before I could figure out what I wanted to say...these are the most agonizing for me because I want to finish the song so bad but I also know that patience can bring about the best stuff.
Some writers develop a definite formula that works for them everytime...I haven't really tried to.
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#512645 - 03/21/02 08:36 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Tedster
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Registered: 09/21/00
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Steve's right...no rules. (Except KORN RULEZ, of course)...
Whatever pops into your head. It might be a great guitar riff...could be a chord sequence, or a great hook line.
My "songwriting shop" is kinda like an auto junkyard...bits and pieces laying around waiting for something else to make them complete..."Wow, what a killer chorus (to me at least)...Now, all I've gotta do is wait for the right verse" or vice...er, versa...
Usually melodies come to me first. Sometimes a bit of verse will sing itself to me as I'm humming the melody..."Great, a few lyrics"...but I really have to fight for the rest of the lyrics.
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#512646 - 03/21/02 11:24 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Dan South
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Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 12979
Loc: Metuchen,NJ,UNITED STATES
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In many instances, a hook just comes to me - words, melody, chords, rhythm - almost as though I'd been listening to it on the radio earlier in the day. I have kind of an internal radio station, and I try to stay tuned into it. It gives me better ideas than the things I come up with consciously.
The next step is to build an arrangement using MIDI. Once I have some basic tracks, I listen back and (usually) improvise lyrics. For me, improvising always yields better results than forcing out ideas onto paper. YMMV.
Aside from this approach, I get ideas when I'm playing with synths. Sounds are very inspiring. Sometimes a single synth program sets off the whole idea.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#512647 - 03/21/02 11:32 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Joachim P. Dyndale
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Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 1260
Loc: My den in Oslo, Norway
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This is great guys! I have very little experience writing songs... The ones I've tried thus far have turned out to be instrumental songs. Lyrics are a major problem for me. I really suck at making any good ones. Maybe they'll come to me easier if I have a good melody first, and kind of absorb it before I try making the lyrics.
If anyone has anything to add, please do! I need all the tips & tricks I can get. Keep it coming! Thanks a million...
-Joachim
_________________________
-Joachim Dyndale -------------------- Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits My Blog...
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#512648 - 03/22/02 12:14 AM
Re: Tips needed!
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Dak Lander
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Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 7716
Loc: Temecula, LoCal, USA
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Tip? You wanna tip? I'll give ya a tip! Get outa town!
:p 
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#512649 - 03/22/02 01:10 AM
Re: Tips needed!
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Jedi
Platinum Member
Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 1321
Loc: D.C area, Home of the Bad Brai...
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Originally posted by sventvkg
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It's a Preference..i'll usually come up with a piece of music that lends itself to some cool melodic ideas. Sometimes it's a RIFF, other times it's changes or chords. Then I start filling in the holes with melodies and after i get a good skelton, the words start happening. Sometimes i'll have a clear idea what I want the song to be about, sometimes it just develops out of me looking for some cool phrase or catch title...But I'll always write the song about something that has personal significance. If you don't put a nice chunk of yourself into it, it's not real..It's just one of those cookie cutter, paid staff writer pieces of trash...And you CAN hear the difference....Just listen to Country Radio....I also tend to think a lot or Great tunes have some type of universal theme many people can relate to. Also, I Lean towards believing that Melody is KING...the Single most imporant element is a strong melody. That's what's gonna grab people first..They will be humming it before they even know the words. Getting a great melody, interesting lyrics and some decent changes(not just stock major minor, 1-4-5 type progressions--add something interesting!), all together in one 4 minute song and you'll have GOLD...Now, first you have to have the talent, then develop it and work the craft..It's a process....Good luck.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is easy to be cocky and put on a role and do a lot of fancy movements. To be blinded it by that. But to express oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, but to express myself ....honestly
That my friend is very hard to do"
Bruce Lee
Hope this helps
Jedi
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#512650 - 03/22/02 06:13 AM
Re: Tips needed!
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Dan South
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Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 12979
Loc: Metuchen,NJ,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by dblackjedi@hotmail.com:
I'll just add that at this moment in my process of becoming a better songwriter I've realized that you've got to come from the center. You've really got to shift away all the bullshit and come from the gut if you want your song to have any significance.
I'm going to be working soon on a song about something that enraged me. I should be doing my "improv" session sometime next week. I don't have a preconceived idea about what I want except for one phrase at the end. I just plan to let my emotions go wild. I'm already excited just thinking about the process, but at the same time, it scares me a little bit. There's nothing like coming face to face with yourself for a little jolt of reality.
_________________________
Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, warmth, and humor. Our time together means a lot, and I should express that more often. I'm sorry that I never got a chance to say these words to DafDuc.
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#512651 - 03/22/02 07:23 AM
Re: Tips needed!
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halljams
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2689
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As far as finding good lyrics it is hard to find a comfortable approach.
It sucks the life out if you are constantly editing yourself as you come up with words. using a ryming dictionary does the same thing.
I find it better to approach it more organically, either by just letting the pen fly and coming back later for a look, or just stepping up to mic and mumbling and muttering things into it over a basic track and recording that. I'm having some good luck with this latley.
sometimes there are certain vowels and sounds that if you are letting yourself go over the music, will become important permanent little landmarks in the song and you can build around and assign words to them.
Most of the time i find they already are words and you can form sentences around them.
I have a tune i'm going to post next week that was created like this, the groove is very simple and the melody and words were almost completely born from this type of approach. It's really fun.
Also, something new i have been working at is trying to make the lyrics surprising to the listener, especially at the first listen. There are obvious places that sentences want to go or resolve to, words that are commonly used together, and if you can find those spots, and manipulate those spots in an exciting way, it can be very succesful IMO.
Well see next week i guess, but my new song is an experiment in this type of stuff. I'm having alot of fun with it.
I really am searching for something different.
I want my music to have very distinct Character and still be very digestable to most people.
So i am searching for ways to open up cracks and expose new things in a 3-4 minute song.
There's lots to do.
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#512652 - 03/22/02 10:21 AM
Re: Tips needed!
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WFTurner
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Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 1128
Loc: PA, USA
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Personally I've never stumbled upon one set way,
a formula for creating music. It's been said a
writer's songs are much like children. In this way it's
true. Like our children, each song is different,
from it's conception, thru the gathering of the germs
of ideas that will decide it's basic form to the
development of the arrangement that will result in
the recording, the portrait which will reveal the distinct
and hopefully unique character of our creation, our new
child. Of course with our songs, if they don't turn out
to our liking, we can break down all the ideas and start over
again.
As far as lyrics go, the simple advise which was mentioned in
another thread in this forum, write, write, write is probably
the best. Approach everything you do concerning the use of
launguage and putting it in a piece of paper as a writer.
Keep a daily personal diary, write those long overdue letters
to old friends or family, take a creative writing class.
Find any reason or opportunity to write in non-lyrical
forms and you'll be surprised in a bit of time how it
will lend itself to helping you become a better lyricist.
_________________________
William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it.
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#512653 - 03/22/02 02:11 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Joachim P. Dyndale
Platinum Member
Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 1260
Loc: My den in Oslo, Norway
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WOW! You guys are the greatest! Thanks a lot for all the excellent advice. It's great to read of your experiences with song writing. I'm confident now that with time, and a lot of patience, I'll be able to write songs more easily, and write better songs. I doubt you'll ever hear any of them on the radio, but who knows?  )
I'm a much more optimistic now.
Have a great day folks!
-Joachim Dyndale
_________________________
-Joachim Dyndale -------------------- Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits My Blog...
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#512654 - 03/22/02 02:51 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Arjay
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Western Mass, USA
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Great replies, everyone. I'd like to add to William Turner's comments about writing, writing, writing, which is usually how I approach any new song.
I suppose I should say "how any new song approaches me," as I am often surprised by whatever I end up writing about, almost as though I am spirit-writing, or channeling some muse. I don't mean to get metaphysical here, just trying to say how songs happen in my head.
Probably 80% of the time for me, the lyric comes first, quite often a title or verbal hook/phrase, around which I will eventually build an entire song. I always "hear" a melody as I go, and quite often I hear all the parts, the instrumentation, and the backup singers...comes from being a producer, too, I guess. My cranium gets pretty crowded at times.
I write a lot of different types of tunes, and sometimes come up with a song for my rock band, sometimes for an acoustic duo I'm in as well, and sometimes it ends up being a song I want to keep for myself. Very occasionally, as I write a tune, I will hear it in my head sung by someone else...like one I wrote ten years ago, which I KNOW Bonnie Raitt would deliver PERFECTLY.
The wonderful First Rule of Songwriting is: There are No Rules. As Robert Frost once said, "I became a poet not because I had any great wisdom to impart, but because I wanted to play with words." Or words to that effect.
Ain't life grand?
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#512655 - 03/22/02 03:18 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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CMDN
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 5965
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
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Howdy.
You all might laugh, but what usually happens to me is this:
I'm at work, bored shitless. My imagination creates loop of sounds to amuse itself -- usually a very rhythmic thing. In an effort to "get it out," I start tapping my desk and humming. Soon, I have a little groove and melody going -- I actaully sit there and bob my head and rock out. Yes, my co-workers think I'm crazy.
Once I have all this happening, I start assigning words to the sounds. These don't have to make sense -- I just want them to sound "good." Then, I sort of examine the words I've been noodling with. If any of them seem coherent, I see if they can be linked together to create a concept. That's how I do it.
For example, a recent musing had me muttering something like, "Slip... I can't retrieve it... Slip... I lost my grip... Slip... etc." I was doing my usual "desk dance" when I started to think about slipping, losing cohesion, making a mistake. Suddenly, the concept for this song hit me: a drug/alcohol addict who "slips" and has a relapse. I was done with the whole thing in less than 10 minutes -- and I never touched an instrument at all. When I got home and played my guitar, I already knew what the parts would sound like because I had already played them in my head. I'm also very lucky to play with musicians who are intuitive and can pick up on my ideas very quickly. I think we're going to record this song in a week or two.
Hope this helps.
_________________________
\m/
Erik
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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#512656 - 03/22/02 05:56 PM
Re: Tips needed!
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Nickelg11
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Registered: 03/21/02
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Joachim,
I agree with most everyone's reply: It's up to the individual songwriter.
The best advice I ever got regarding songwriting was to just write. Whenever you get the inspiration, whether it be lyrics, melody, or a riff -whatever, just go with it. You can edit later but not while you have the inspiration!!
Good Luck
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Moderator: nursers
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). Anyway, that's kinda how I usually start then it could branch out ten different ways. I wish I could just wake up in the middle of the night and grab a guitar and write "Yesterday," but it hasn't been quite so easy for me thus far...
