#512274 - 04/15/04 12:54 AM
How do You Respond to this?
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ptuzer
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Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
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I am working on a project for a small label. The producer is from Nashville (not that means anything but the label is spending money on this). The producer starting playing a lead vocal track with an obvious edit in it. Then he asks me to listen carefully and make a comment.
There was no compression OR eq on the vocal track at all. There was not a lot of difference - I do admit that. But I said wait and listen I added an eq and comp and you could hear more of a difference. What he had done was import the pre-production lead vocal track recorded on an Mbox w/ a Focusrite Track Master and a Rode mic. My set up is an HD 7 Accel with 192's and a Rosetta 800 w/ ISA 430 and a Manley Reference cardiod.
The Producer felt there was not a big enough difference in the quality especially when played with the music, we listened to the track in solo. He totally almost talked the band not to track vocals at all in my studio. My only saving grace is that the band's drummer engineers in my studio.
I find this very disheartening as I have worked for many years to get where I am and this is the attitude of some-not all of the people I have to work with. I do not have a small studio but there are 3 of us who make 100% of our income from the studio. In today's climate I find it hard to see the business quality slipping so much. I have no choice but adapt to the new realities of being in the studio business, falling quality.
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#512275 - 04/15/04 01:19 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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maarvold
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Registered: 08/26/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Simi Valley,CA,UNITED STATES
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It's a disheartening situation when you "cast your pearls before swine" and risk getting shot down. Yet we all have to make a living. I would suggest one or more of the following: A. [if warranted] Avoiding that producer in the future; B. Making sure that your criticism of the old vocal is rooted in reality and not conflict of interest due to income needs; C. Getting so good at your craft (& your equipment--maybe selection in this case) that only a deaf fool would be content with the old vocal.
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#512276 - 04/15/04 01:24 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Nathan_Eldred
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Posts: 562
Loc: Central FL, USA
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Very frustrating. What are you using for monitoring and stereo DAC? I've noticed that certain brands (even the more expensive and well respected "industry standards") 'homogenize' the sound, making a $3000 preamp sound more like a $300 preamp. When the right pieces are in place, the differences become extremely apparent, and it takes a brutally honest monitoring path (i.e. not 'pleasant sounding') to uncover the diamonds from the rough. I've seen it happen quite a bit, it takes a lot of A/B'ing and getting around preconceptions to get the right pieces for a monitoring chain.
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#512277 - 04/15/04 01:27 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Loco
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Did he talked bad about the apogees as well? Did he tried to engineer himself over your shoulder? I think I know him. No, wait. Marti is from LA....
Next time, get an out-of-this-world sound with your gear and ask him to match it with his. If he dares to say he has better ears than yours, ask him to tell the obvious difference when you tweak the knobs on your 3P-III Palindrometer. The band will have a cool story to tell to RollingStone.
_________________________
"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
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#512278 - 04/15/04 01:40 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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3D Audio
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Loc: Franklin, TN, US
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Originally posted by maarvold:
C. Getting so good at your craft (& your equipment--maybe selection in this case) that only a deaf fool would be content with the old vocal.
Sometimes there are factors that are more influential than the sound.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#512279 - 04/15/04 01:55 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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DAS
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Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville
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Lynn's right. There can be many things that go on as to why things are done the way they are done. At best, it may be the producer knows the singer is limited and nothing short of a full root canal will come close to bettering the demo vocals. (I've seen that happen) Middle ground, the budget it stretched to the limit and short of paying you and your studio less for what you are doing, this is a way around it. Lastly, as Lynn says, the producer may be lining his pocket with studio cash. (I know some who do that as well.) One other possiblilty is he's just lazy!
You gotta do your best, but sometimes you may win the battle and lose the war. Doing your best with what's given may make a "next time" possible where the producer has seen that you know your stuff and he trusts you more. Sometimes it is "pearls before swine." You just gotta know if it's a swine or not.
_________________________
DAS
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#512280 - 04/15/04 02:11 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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linwood
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Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 3302
Loc: Las Vegas,NV,UNITED STATES
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I've had that same problem before. I had a client that brought in vocals that were recorded in his bedroom that were a little distorted and looked like a 2x4. All the punches were noticeable to me, but he'd didn't mind and would rather live with it than to do it over and right. His check cashed just fine.........
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#512281 - 04/15/04 06:08 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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mark kramer
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 54
Loc: Dresher, PA.
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New construction wood smell in a can.
Hot tub.
Pool table.
Sexy studio lighting.
HDTV with giantic wave files in between sports events.
Platimum Cds on the wall.
Great coffee.
Massages.
LA type fitness center on the premises.
A video on "You too can have perfect pitch"
Regards,
Mark
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#512282 - 04/15/04 01:05 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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robdarling@mail.com
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Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 477
Loc: New York,NY,UNITED STATES
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As someone who spends more time producing than engineering, I will say that you, as the engineer, have only a limited role in the production and there are factors that you may not know about. Getting upset about things that are important to you without considering what else goes on will hold you back. Great engineers always understand that they are part of a team and other factors are always in play.
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#512283 - 04/15/04 01:47 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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drew
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 166
Loc: Maryland, USA
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Originally posted by robdarling@mail.com:
As someone who spends more time producing than engineering, I will say that you, as the engineer, have only a limited role in the production and there are factors that you may not know about. Getting upset about things that are important to you without considering what else goes on will hold you back. Great engineers always understand that they are part of a team and other factors are always in play.
make your case as diplomatically as you can, hear the answer and move on. The producer may feel that the "inferior" sounding vox adds more to the song. or he may be a rotten money grubbing a-hole. who knows. pick your battles wisely.
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#512284 - 04/15/04 02:46 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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gm
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Registered: 02/10/00
Posts: 2184
Loc: Williamson County, TN, USA
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Originally posted by robdarling@mail.com:
As someone who spends more time producing than engineering, I will say that you, as the engineer, have only a limited role in the production and there are factors that you may not know about. Getting upset about things that are important to you without considering what else goes on will hold you back. Great engineers always understand that they are part of a team and other factors are always in play.
That having been said, the path to being happy in the studio revolves around 4 basic rules:
You have to...
1. ...show up.
2. ...be a part of the process, paying particular attention to listening carefully to everything, music and all conversations.
3. Tell the truth, when asked. Always. Especially when you make mistakes.
4. Let go of the outcome.
This is no more or less important than the rest. However, it is a toughie for most folks, especially those who need or want to "own" the product.
Give it up.
George
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#512285 - 04/15/04 04:08 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Rader Ranch
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Registered: 08/29/00
Posts: 560
Loc: Altadena,CA,UNITED STATES
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ptuzer, the one things you didn't mention is the vocal performances, performance being what it's all about in the end, not the relative sounds.
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#512286 - 04/16/04 11:30 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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DAS
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Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville
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George,
Thanks for the "4 Basic Rules." A great bit of wisdom. It should be a pass/fail final for all those recording schools out there!
It's also true of every great session player, engineer, or producer I've had the privilege to watch.
_________________________
DAS
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#512287 - 04/16/04 05:46 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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ptuzer
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Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
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I really liked all the answers here but my point for the most part was that there are a lot of people working out there producing music on cheap DAW's some of it good some of it really bad as well. My main point is that people are settling for cheap gear and slapping together projects fast and saying that's good enough. For the most part I have no problem with that I can accept it. But at the same time if people are spending less money on productions than they have in the past, my concern is that with attitude what's the point of having a nice rack of GML, Manley, SSL & Neve outboard gear when some kid next door sets up an Mbox with a iMac and people say that's good enough for me.
My concern is that I may as well have a minimal set up as well, and if people want all the fancy stuff they have to rent it.
Not trying to be too negative here but as that seems to be the new realities of recording now. I hope this is not a trend only a bump in the road.
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#512289 - 04/17/04 04:09 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Henchman
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Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
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Originally posted by ptuzer:
My main point is that people are settling for cheap gear and slapping together projects fast and saying that's good enough.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#512290 - 04/17/04 04:34 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Bill Mueller
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 147
Loc: Maryland
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ptzer,
It could be that the producer does not believe that the singer can get a better vocal ANYWHERE, not just your studio.
There may not be enough money left to do another vocal.
There may not be enough time left to do another vocal.
The producer just likes the original vocal enough to keep it.
The producer knows that the singer is doing his girlfriend.
In the end it is the producers decision, not yours. In fact you may have breached studio ediquite by eliciting a political ally (the drummer) instead of accepting your given role and fulfilling your duty as engineer. You did get paid din't you?
I've seen a certain famous Canadian producer put a vintage U47 an inch from a 9" snare drum and crush it's gain. I was horrified until I heard it in the mix and instantly recoginized that "Purple Flood" (you know who you are) snare sound.
To each his own.
Best regards,
Bill
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#512291 - 04/17/04 07:26 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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skiboy
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Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 37
Loc: The Pole
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Hi,
Bill...you nailed it..there are reasons beyond our senses.
ptuzer; you HAVE read the Mixerman sessions blog ?
This happens every moment everywhere...rise above the
immediate impulse response.
YOU are the MASTER of your world. Let go, wait a second before speaking, restrain from witty comments that elevate your ego only.
I tend to approach a session as a therapeutic group encounter where everyone should gain from other participants' strengths and not their weaknesses.
If you think you are there already, you are not ! 
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#512292 - 04/17/04 07:51 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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zele
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Registered: 01/12/01
Posts: 1136
Loc: carmel,CA,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ptuzer:
[qb]My main point is that people are settling for cheap gear and slapping together projects fast and saying that's good enough.
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#512293 - 04/17/04 08:37 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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3D Audio
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 1032
Loc: Franklin, TN, US
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Originally posted by ptuzer:
what's the point of having a nice rack of GML, Manley, SSL & Neve outboard gear when some kid next door sets up an Mbox with a iMac and people say that's good enough for me...
I hope this is not a trend only a bump in the road.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#512294 - 04/17/04 10:28 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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KenElevenShadows
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 8586
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by 3D Audio: Originally posted by ptuzer:
what's the point of having a nice rack of GML, Manley, SSL & Neve outboard gear when some kid next door sets up an Mbox with a iMac and people say that's good enough for me...
I hope this is not a trend only a bump in the road.
If clients really want to take that step up in quality, then they still have to pay for it... or not. Maybe they can't hear the difference, don't care about the difference, may not need that gear to produce their kind of music, or, just maybe, some of us are not doing a good enough job in making it sound better and they're just not impressed. After all, the difference between GML, Manley, SSL & Neve outboard gear and an Mbox with a iMac should not be subtle.
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#512295 - 04/17/04 10:40 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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dr.sound
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Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 156
Loc: Burbank, CA USA
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Loco
Platinum Member
Member # 4830
posted 04-14-2004 10:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did he talked bad about the apogees as well? Did he tried to engineer himself over your shoulder? I think I know him. No, wait. Marti is from LA....
I take it your talking about some other Marti from L.A. ?
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#512296 - 04/18/04 01:16 AM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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3D Audio
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Nectarphonic.
Cool name. Is that a band or a club?
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#512297 - 04/18/04 05:15 PM
Re: How do You Respond to this?
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Loco
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 1242
Loc: Miami Beach,FL,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by dr.sound: Loco
Platinum Member
Member # 4830
posted 04-14-2004 10:27 PM
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Did he talked bad about the apogees as well? Did he tried to engineer himself over your shoulder? I think I know him. No, wait. Marti is from LA....
I take it your talking about some other Marti from L.A. ?
Fun story: I was retracking some parts he recorded at LA and London with the famous ugly singer. Marti walked in and said that he didn't liked the color of the vocals. He started tweaking the Neve module and the 1176 until he was happy with it. When we were done with the tracking, the singer asked me about the preamp we were using. Before Marti could say the N word, I pointed my finger to that beautiful blue Focusrite ISA430...
I never saw Marti ever again.
_________________________
"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
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*Know your market*
