Thought this might be better in it's own thread - here goes...
Last night was "ribbon mic shootout" at the studio - we had: 1) Beyer M160 (stock) 2) Beyer M160 DX mod 3) Royer R-121 4) Royer R-122 5) Royer SF-1 6) Coles 4038 7) AEA R84
Used them all at a distance of 12 inches to a couple of feet from violin, trombone, and acoustic guitar - ran out of time to do percussion, but we did get a clear picture of each mic's strengths (and weaknesses) - all mics ran through the same brand of cable, into the same pre-amps, then through the same converters so the playing field was fair - now for the session...
Overall, bottom of the list went to the M160 (both stock and modded, but for completely different reasons) and the AEA-R84, except on raunchy acoustic blues, where the R84 sounded best of the lot - it also sounded OK on pizz. strings. Maybe the scooped mids, and proximity/tubbiness for the R84 would allow it to shine as a single mic on a vocalist/instrumentalist, but not as appropriate as a spot mic... The others all sounded quite good on the violin/trombone, but prize(s) went to the Coles 4038 and the Royer SF-1 for best detail - the royer a bit more present in the mids, and the coles a darker bottom, yet nice soft top detail on the violin - 4038 was my choice on the fiddle... trombone - well, again it's a matter of preference, and what context for the part, but again, 4038/SF-1 seemed to be the best marriage - both the R-121/R-122 were harder sounding in the mid range, which is often a great thing for brass (as opposed to the "scooped" sound, somewhat like the R84/M160 DX) - also need to mention - the R121-122 are very, very similar, but the 122 has a bit of a brightness lift, somewhere in the high mid, to high freq. area: (2 to 4 Khz?) enough to differentiate the 2, esp. noticeable with bowed strings, etc...
Now, the M160DX was one of the most unmusical mics used for these applications - nothing it stood in front of was of musical value - however, I think if we would've thrown a vocalist (which we didn't have) in front of it, the value of the mic might become apparent: it has a very bright top, and higher noise/lower output than the others - but I think could have it's applications, just like anything else, only not as versatile...
So, in this test - the most natural sounding, and useful mics were: 4038, and the SF-1 The next rung was the R-121/R-122, both sounding great on trombone, and a bit less pleasant on the violin/guitar - the other AE uses his (R-122) on female vocals/acoustic guitar, and loves it - I've used the R-121 as a 2nd mic on vocalists (for GIRTH), but never the only mic - and almost never on acoustic guitar - too dull - maybe the 122 brightness lift is the ticket... Last is the R-84, and the Beyer M160 stock and DX - all in all, they are still useful mics, but not quite as indispensible as the others...
IME as a brass player, and from using it fairly often, the 4038 is a very useful ribbon mic: I've never used it for overheads, but as a room mic, (kit) trombone/trumpet/tuba/sax/fiddle etc., even voice - it always seems to win over the Royer, tho not by much: SF-1 is a really sweet mic, and seems "truer" to the source, but the 4038 is flattering in such a pleasant way, it's hard to want the "truth". Tho the R-121 and R-122 can sound "harder" in the mids, I think this is it's strength for gtr. cab: mid detail is killer on these mics, and tho I prefer the Coles to the Royers on brass, the R-121 has given me faithful, killer tone on horn tracks. It's a matter of inches, not miles.
I hope this is useful/helpful - not meant to be a review, but rather the experience relating to "my opinion" from last night's session...
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This is what I love about forums like this. Differing opinions.
Audio gear is like ice cream. You say "I tried 7 different flavors last night and the butter pecan is absolutely the best of all, with chocolate chip mint a close second."
I say "Well I tried the butter pecan and it doesn't hold a candle to the cookies and cream, and I think the chocolate espresso is to die for. I could eat nothing but that for the rest of my life."
I had a 122, 121, SF-1 and my R84s in the studio for the preamp shootout last weekend. My conclusions were different than yours, though the preamps and instrumentation were also very different. (You didn't mention which preamps you were using, by the way.)
It just goes to show that there are "different strokes for different folks." And you can't put all your faith in one person's opinion (especially mine), no matter how much energy and experience the writer has.
I think your opinions are a good starting point for someone who is considering getting one of the above ribbons. But for the readers, know that for every opinion that is stated online, there is an equal and opposite opinion out there that you may not have read.
Use your ears.
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Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio: This is what I love about forums like this. Differing opinions.
Audio gear is like ice cream. You say "I tried 7 different flavors last night and the butter pecan is absolutely the best of all, with chocolate chip mint a close second."
I say "Well I tried the butter pecan and it doesn't hold a candle to the cookies and cream, and I think the chocolate espresso is to die for. I could eat nothing but that for the rest of my life."
I had a 122, 121, SF-1 and my R84s in the studio for the preamp shootout last weekend. My conclusions were different than yours, though the preamps and instrumentation were also very different. (You didn't mention which preamps you were using, by the way.)
It just goes to show that there are "different strokes for different folks." And you can't put all your faith in one person's opinion (especially mine), no matter how much energy and experience the writer has.
I think your opinions are a good starting point for someone who is considering getting one of the above ribbons. But for the readers, know that for every opinion that is stated online, there is an equal and opposite opinion out there that you may not have read.
Use your ears.
I'm wondering if this experiment would have come out very differently if distances up to 6 or 10 feet were used instead of just 1 and 2 feet as described. I've read that the R84 has a proximity effect that is active to 6 feet- could this account for the boomy/tubbiness described here? I recall Lynn writing something about ribbons like "if you want less bass, move it back- WAY back!"
Thoughts?
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I play trumpet. I compared four ribbons. My results: 1. R84 2. Royer 121 3. Beyer M260 4. M260 with DX mod
It was not much of a contest for me. The R84 was big, smooth, and real. The other 3 ribbons, like nearly all other mics I've played into, seem to exaggerate the difference in character between a trumpet played soft and easy and one played loud and hard. The result is not exciting or dynamic; it's kind of false, and it makes the player sound a bit out of control. The only other mics I've seen get this right (other than the R84) are old RCA's, Neumann 47, and maybe a Coles ribbon. Other than this problem, that Royer is a great mic. It has a tone similar to the Beyer 260 but smoother and more robust. If you play an instrument often and well, you get real familiar with its sound, and then recorded sounds of that instrument are usually not satisfying to the player. To me, most recordings of trumpets done in the past 35 years sound poor, like a little synth sound. Back in the 50's and early 60's trumpet was a more mainstream instrument (it sure isn't now!) and they went for a full-bodied sound, using big beautiful sounding rooms and those 1950's signal chains. Today, with small dead rooms, headphones, and signal chains that lack tone, the trumpet doesn't have a chance.
Originally posted by Mats Olsson.: Thanks for posting, very intresting!
What distance did you use for trombone and other horn instruments?
I really like the sound of Coles 4038 but have not used any other model on a regular basis.
/Mats
The trombone was about 3 feet away, the acoustic gtr about the same, sometimes to about 2 ft. away, and the violin was 18 inches to 2 feet away - so IMO, fairly close distances, but not right up on the mics...
FYI, the mics all ran through mogami/neutrik cables, into Ramsa DA7 pre's, and through lightpipe into DAW... not spendy outboard, just identical, enabling accuracy - the shootout wasn't for killer sounds through mic pre's, it was solely to find the sonic differences of the mics we had in our inventory - something neither of us has done with ribbons: and yes, this is about as subjective an area as you can get - even on a quick second listen today, I was astounded by the first reactions I posted this morning, tho all opinions are mine, and still stand after a really quick refresher tonite: as for the "distance" test, there was hardly enough gain (60 dB on the board pre's) to get recorded signal hot enough to print at a couple of feet - some strips were wide open - maybe if we were recording kit, or other loud brass, but how loud is a fiddle/acoustic guitar? We'd need 80+ dB to get any distant miced signal into the DAW: not to argue, but unless it's a distant sounding instrument required for the track, I'll almost always go for a close(r) spot mic, rather than a distant one, but then again, YMMV...
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FWIW - I did a session with two Jamaican brass players a few weeks back - Bobby Ellis (72 yrs old! & a veteran of at least 3,000 album recordings for Studio One, Bob Marley etc) was on trumpet & I used a Beyer M160 as 'spot mic' and a Coles 4038 about 5 feet back - the sound was great, not thin or 'synth like' at all. I know what the previous poster means about the prevalence of thin horn sounds. Ov course the player & instruments make a big difference as well..
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Quote:
Originally posted by dougtune: I play trumpet. I compared four ribbons. My results: 1. R84 2. Royer 121 3. Beyer M260 4. M260 with DX mod
It was not much of a contest for me. The R84 was big, smooth, and real. The other 3 ribbons, like nearly all other mics I've played into, seem to exaggerate the difference in character between a trumpet played soft and easy and one played loud and hard. The result is not exciting or dynamic; it's kind of false, and it makes the player sound a bit out of control. The only other mics I've seen get this right (other than the R84) are old RCA's, Neumann 47, and maybe a Coles ribbon. Other than this problem, that Royer is a great mic. It has a tone similar to the Beyer 260 but smoother and more robust. If you play an instrument often and well, you get real familiar with its sound, and then recorded sounds of that instrument are usually not satisfying to the player. To me, most recordings of trumpets done in the past 35 years sound poor, like a little synth sound. Back in the 50's and early 60's trumpet was a more mainstream instrument (it sure isn't now!) and they went for a full-bodied sound, using big beautiful sounding rooms and those 1950's signal chains. Today, with small dead rooms, headphones, and signal chains that lack tone, the trumpet doesn't have a chance.
Doug,
Your post is dead on. Trumpets don't sound right (balanced, real) until you get at least 4 feet away. That seems to be the distance where all the harmonics and fundamentals catch up and come together. I don't like the sound of a trumpet any closer than that. I also don't like the sound of a LDC on a trumpet. I don't know why but maybe it's the tensioning of a condenser mic. At large excursions, which the trumpet is very capable of--not because it's loud but because the air pressure is traveling in only one direction out of the bell of the horn, condensers seem to clamp down and become strained and stressed sounding. This exaggerates the natural brilliance of the horn played loud and can make it like fingernails on a chalkboard.
The R84 deals with that issue magnificently. It is smooth without being dull at full volume, even with three players blasting fff. And yet it stays wonderfully present when a solo is playing pp. The 121 is good at this also, but tends to get shrill at louder volumes, at least to my ear. The 4038 is good for trumpet but I would rank it third behind the other two I just mentioned.
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Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio: Audio gear is like ice cream. You say "I tried 7 different flavors last night and the butter pecan is absolutely the best of all, with chocolate chip mint a close second."
I say "Well I tried the butter pecan and it doesn't hold a candle to the cookies and cream, and I think the chocolate espresso is to die for. I could eat nothing but that for the rest of my life."
Agreed, however - I bet of those seven flavors, one would consistantly come in last place and I would say that it's unlikely that anyone would put Vanilla at the very top, so you do have a guide range, so to speak.
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Originally posted by 3D Audio: I also don't like the sound of a LDC on a trumpet. I don't know why but maybe it's the tensioning of a condenser mic.
I've recorded a number of trumpet solo's for a big band recording with an M149 (overdubs) and it sounds wonderful, but I must add the player didn't play any loud.
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The M160 Beyer sounds great to my ears on electric guitar. I also use and love the Royer 121 for electric guitar. The Royer sounds a darker than the Beyer.
I have heard recordings using the Royer 121 for Trumpet, and I thought it sounded great.
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Yep, different strokes all right. I love the Beyer M160 on drum overheads particularly, as well as electric guitar and sax (it's killer for sax). I've used it to great effect on strings as well. Have not tried the R84 but I've compared the Beyer to the 4038, Royer R121 and RCA 44's and 77's. Frankly the Royer didn't impress me much except on trumpet, which I also think sounds great with a 4038 or RCA. I think the others are right on about trumpet though - I don't think ANY mic sounds very good on trumpet unless the player is 4 to 6 feet back from the mic.
But then again vanilla is my favorite ice cream flavor, too.
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I've had fantastic results on trumpet with a Manley Gold (LDC) through Manley Dual Mono just a couple inches from the *back* of the bell. I play plenty loud, but no higher than high C or D, big fat type tone rather than shrill theatre-orchestra screamy stuff. The flow of dynamics from pp to fff and the whole range of the horn from low F# to the highest notes works very nicely indeed. This was to analog tape though, maybe that has something to do with it.
Still I'm interested in trying a ribbon (also and especially for mic'ing whole small ensembles) and my readings, no substitute for listening, I know, have inclined me towards the R84 or it's big brother (probably more than I'm likely to shell out).
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
Originally posted by NE-One: and I would say that it's unlikely that anyone would put Vanilla at the very top, so you do have a guide range, so to speak.
what a thing to say!
Count me as one of those who would rank a good vanilla first - and here's one reason why: you can really judge an ice cream by their vanilla- there's no place to hide. If it isn't totally fresh and creamy you are going to know it.
throw enough nuts, fruit and cookie dough in there and people will expect less from the ice cream itself
I am sure there is an analogy pertinent to ribbon mics in there somewhere and I would love to tell you about it but I need to go to the store right now...
Originally posted by dougtune: I play trumpet. I compared four ribbons. My results: 1. R84 2. Royer 121 3. Beyer M260 4. M260 with DX mod
It was not much of a contest for me. The R84 was big, smooth, and real. The other 3 ribbons, like nearly all other mics I've played into, seem to exaggerate the difference in character between a trumpet played soft and easy and one played loud and hard. The result is not exciting or dynamic; it's kind of false, and it makes the player sound a bit out of control. The only other mics I've seen get this right (other than the R84) are old RCA's, Neumann 47, and maybe a Coles ribbon. Other than this problem, that Royer is a great mic. It has a tone similar to the Beyer 260 but smoother and more robust. If you play an instrument often and well, you get real familiar with its sound, and then recorded sounds of that instrument are usually not satisfying to the player. To me, most recordings of trumpets done in the past 35 years sound poor, like a little synth sound. Back in the 50's and early 60's trumpet was a more mainstream instrument (it sure isn't now!) and they went for a full-bodied sound, using big beautiful sounding rooms and those 1950's signal chains. Today, with small dead rooms, headphones, and signal chains that lack tone, the trumpet doesn't have a chance.
Doug,
Your post is dead on. Trumpets don't sound right (balanced, real) until you get at least 4 feet away. That seems to be the distance where all the harmonics and fundamentals catch up and come together. I don't like the sound of a trumpet any closer than that. I also don't like the sound of a LDC on a trumpet. I don't know why but maybe it's the tensioning of a condenser mic. At large excursions, which the trumpet is very capable of--not because it's loud but because the air pressure is traveling in only one direction out of the bell of the horn, condensers seem to clamp down and become strained and stressed sounding. This exaggerates the natural brilliance of the horn played loud and can make it like fingernails on a chalkboard.
The R84 deals with that issue magnificently. It is smooth without being dull at full volume, even with three players blasting fff. And yet it stays wonderfully present when a solo is playing pp. The 121 is good at this also, but tends to get shrill at louder volumes, at least to my ear. The 4038 is good for trumpet but I would rank it third behind the other two I just mentioned.
All of this I can relate to, and understand: horns never sound the same up close as they do in a room, and I agree about the LD condensers: just not right for flattering brass recording. That said, I don't think getting large distances away from mics makes for a very focussed sound - it really depends on the context of the music - "Buena Vista" sounding horns = roomy, soloistic vibe. Tower of Power/funk/contemporary latin = focussed, close sounding brass i.e - close micing, as it were in a "live" setting. I couldn't imagine a "roomy" sounding "tight" horn section - I'd want something "tighter" and possibly "brighter" sounding, but is context dependent...
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Good point - indeed for most music these days a big huge distant miked wooly old school sound would not be appropriate - instead the more thin, keyboard style sound would be just what the doctor ordered. IMO ov course.
I once did a session with 6 bonists in a nice room and I put them in a circle around 2 77s crossed at 90° into Neve 1066s followed by 2 LA2As and API 550bs (no eq applied but not in bypass). It sounded nice in the room, it sounded nice to me and the producer through the monitors. They were playing over a midi generated bed that was going to be replaced after they had done their tracks and solos (?). I can't begin to describe what happens when you put 6 boners in a room together, all of them quite famous. The session ended up being recorded with 4 421s and 2 RE20s, all of them at point blank range, this is the sound they preferred. The producer liked the first set up, me too, but when a couple of players asked to hear their sound, it was all over. There weren't enough tracks to put up both. It was my first gig not being an assistant and I was recording Robin Eubanks and Steve Turre. I was right, the producer was a wimp, the bonists were boners and it turned out alright anyhow. I like a JV74 on tpt, and the Coles is my next choice, a 44 seems a little big and doesn't sit right with Tbon either but it's good old blue eyes for vox. Beyer 260 500 for Flugel, If I have enough space in a session I'll put up an LD and a ribbon and mix for tenor sax. The problem with ribbons is their tight pattern, 4 ft gives you a good image of the instrument but you have lo output (output or make up gain on a compressor usually solves this, you don't have to hear all that noise of an open mic amp) and a lot of bleed which at times is unacceptable. I've temporarily modified ribbons by mounting a piece of foam covered cardboard over one side thus giving a pattern and frequency response similar to a half omni, so you can get closer without noticing the P effect which is big on ribbons, (P effect is good for vox, vio and ac gtr). The good thing about ribbons is the hi-end, it seems truer to the source, faster and less distoted than a diaphragm mic, I noticed the same thing with a Milab square diaphragm mic although it didn't sound like a ribbon there was a clarity to the high end. my Faves are the RCA 44 for vox or tenor or baritone sax, the RCA JV74 for tpt, tbon, ac gtr and the Coles 4038, pno and anything else you would use a ribbon for, I like the Beyers but they're in a different league and work in different ways, overheads, small gtr amps, I prefer the 260 over the 160 bcause it has a "simpler" sound. I use them as cymbal spots alot. I've been shooting out for years, But I've never heard the Royers or the AEA stuff and i've never heard the B&O which is supposed to be HIFI. The Coles commentater mic has a special sound, coupled with a broadcast limiter, which is at the most difficult to immitate.
orignally posted by PlugHead and I agree about the LD condensers: just not right for flattering brass recording.
I've heard trumpet thru a U67 that sounded great! Try it, you may like it
Yeah,
I have tried it - with U67's - stock, and modded: no contest against the Coles or Royers, tho for a certain (horn) sound, I know it could be the right mic - heard a few trumpets recorded on U67's and they did sound damn fine: must be an issue with the player's sound, as well as the room...
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