#511947 - 04/09/04 11:45 AM
Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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I normalized a song file which was a mix of acoustic guitar and male vocal and I am finding that while the new file is louder it seems to be "boomier" with a disproportionate boost in the 100-200 Hz region. This is what I did to get this:
1) Mixed the tune in DP3 w/ Metric Halo CS
2) Applied some gentle limiting on the master bus (at this point the avg. RMS was around -18 db with peaks hitting -9db)
at this point the mix sounded clean, balanced, and open . . . but just too soft relative to just about anything I put it against
3) Bounced the mix from 24 to 16 bits (using DP3 stock dither)
4) Normalized bounced file w/ DP3 normalization
At this point the file became louder but "boomier"
Do you think this is a psychoacoustic thing w/ the Fletcher Munson curves or is the normalization process skewing the bottom end of the mix in the file?
Any thoughts? Am I doing this right? Wrong?
Thanks,
Mike
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#511948 - 04/09/04 12:14 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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Ruairi O'Flaherty
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Registered: 01/04/02
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Loc: IRELAND
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Hi Mike,
I've never seen normalization have any effect on frequency content. Perhaps this is obvious but how did you compare the normalized and regular files? Did you line them up in a DAW and level match them using faders? If you simply played them back at the respective different levels perhaps the louder of the two was provoking room resonances or revealing non linearities in your playback system.
BTW I got your email re the Millennia, I'll keep it in mind - funds are low just about to get a bunch of Realtraps. I'll pass word onto a few people that I know,
cheers,
Ruairi
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#511949 - 04/09/04 12:16 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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edmann
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Registered: 08/26/03
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Originally posted by mhimes11:
I normalized a song file which was a mix of acoustic guitar and male vocal and I am finding that while the new file is louder it seems to be "boomier" with a disproportionate boost in the 100-200 Hz region. This is what I did to get this:
1) Mixed the tune in DP3 w/ Metric Halo CS
2) Applied some gentle limiting on the master bus (at this point the avg. RMS was around -18 db with peaks hitting -9db)
at this point the mix sounded clean, balanced, and open . . . but just too soft relative to just about anything I put it against
3) Bounced the mix from 24 to 16 bits (using DP3 stock dither)
4) Normalized bounced file w/ DP3 normalization
At this point the file became louder but "boomier"
Do you think this is a psychoacoustic thing w/ the Fletcher Munson curves or is the normalization process skewing the bottom end of the mix in the file?
Any thoughts? Am I doing this right? Wrong?
Thanks,
Mike
First - do all of your DSP (i.e. normalize etc) while you file is still 24 bits. I also think that your average levels are too low by about 6 - 9db
make sure that your mix faders in DP are as high as possible (reasonable) otherwise you are reducing the resolution of your trax
hope this helps
Ed
_________________________
Ed Mann
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#511950 - 04/09/04 03:30 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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Ruairi O'Flaherty
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Ed,
I'm not sure at all that the best way to mix is with the individual channel faders higher up. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly (and I could be) both Nika and Paul Frindle have recommended that it's better to hit the mix bus at lower levels and then make up the gain in one step on the master bus. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I do agree that any and all processing should be done while the file is at 24bit. Obviously this is not what Mike was hearing though,
cheers,
Ruairi
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#511951 - 04/09/04 09:40 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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Thanks for the comments guys . . . couple of things. I did compare the normalized vs. non-normalized files at the same volume setting, however I didn't try to match levels between the two and compare then.
I usually monitor at around 75 db. Maybe when the file is boosted 5-10 db it enters a zone in the in the Fletcher Munson curve that is more effecient in trasferring LF so it seems louder (which I guess means it is on some level!)
Ruairi . . . as far as how I handle gain staging in the DAW, I guess generally I try to keep the master fader at unity and adjust the track faders (which have some compression on them as well) to bring the peaks with in 5 db or so on the master fader. But I'm new at this and I may not be utilizing these tools to their utmost (hence the post!)
I then apply some limiting on the master and bring it up a couple more db, but the voices of the experienced resonate in my head, "don't over limit and squash the track." So maybe I am just not limiting enough.
One other issue which may have to do with my CD rendering/burning process (from DP to iTunes and burned from there). The sound of the file in DP is a good bit louder than the sound of the track on the burned CD. So somewhere between export to iTunes and hitting play on my Denon, it is losing volume. And this is with the exact same settings on my mixer. Maybe the CD player isn't calibrated like the outputs of my 828 mkII.
Thoughts?
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#511952 - 04/09/04 09:41 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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Originally posted by mhimes11:
Thanks for the comments guys . . . couple of things. I did compare the normalized vs. non-normalized files at the same volume "setting," however I didn't try to actaully match levels bvy ear and compare them.
I usually monitor at around 75 db. Maybe when the file is boosted 5-10 db it enters a zone in the in the Fletcher Munson curve that is more effecient in trasferring LF so it seems louder (which I guess means it is on some level!)
Ruairi . . . as far as how I handle gain staging in the DAW, I guess generally I try to keep the master fader at unity and adjust the track faders (which have some compression on them as well) to bring the peaks with in 5 db or so on the master fader. But I'm new at this and I may not be utilizing these tools to their utmost (hence the post!)
I then apply some limiting on the master and bring it up a couple more db, but the voices of the experienced resonate in my head, "don't over limit and squash the track." So maybe I am just not limiting enough.
One other issue which may have to do with my CD rendering/burning process (from DP to iTunes and burned from there). The sound of the file in DP is a good bit louder than the sound of the track on the burned CD. So somewhere between export to iTunes and hitting play on my Denon, it is losing volume. And this is with the exact same settings on my mixer. Maybe the CD player isn't calibrated like the outputs of my 828 mkII.
Thoughts?
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#511953 - 04/09/04 09:41 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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Originally posted by mhimes11:
Thanks for the comments guys . . . couple of things. I did compare the normalized vs. non-normalized files at the same volume setting, however I didn't try to match levels between the two and compare then.
I usually monitor at around 75 db. Maybe when the file is boosted 5-10 db it enters a zone in the Fletcher Munson curve that is more effecient in trasferring LF so it seems louder (which I guess means it is on some level!)
Ruairi . . . as far as how I handle gain staging in the DAW, I guess generally I try to keep the master fader at unity and adjust the track faders (which have some compression on them as well) to bring the peaks with in 5 db or so on the master fader. But I'm new at this and I may not be utilizing these tools to their utmost (hence the post!)
I then apply some limiting on the master and bring it up a couple more db, but the voices of the experienced resonate in my head, "don't over limit and squash the track." So maybe I am just not limiting enough.
One other issue which may have to do with my CD rendering/burning process (from DP to iTunes and burned from there). The sound of the file in DP is a good bit louder than the sound of the track on the burned CD. So somewhere between export to iTunes and hitting play on my Denon, it is losing volume. And this is with the exact same settings on my mixer. Maybe the CD player isn't calibrated like the outputs of my 828 mkII.
Thoughts?
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#511954 - 04/09/04 09:46 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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Sorry bout that . . . I meant to edit my post and I was hitting the " " icon instead . . . duh!
Ruairi, off the subject a bit. I know you're in Ireland, but are you Irish?
If you would, plaese tell me what you know of the first name Riley. Is it more of a boy's or 's name over there? Is it common?
Thanks,
Mike
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#511955 - 04/10/04 12:17 AM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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Ruairi O'Flaherty
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Hi Mike,
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mhimes11:
Thanks for the comments guys . . . couple of things. I did compare the normalized vs. non-normalized files at the same volume setting, however I didn't try to match levels between the two and compare then.
You need to import the normalized and regular files in to a new session and compare them with the levels matched, it is very difficult to make a tonal judgement if tracks you are auditioning have different levels
Ruairi . . . as far as how I handle gain staging in the DAW, I guess generally I try to keep the master fader at unity and adjust the track faders (which have some compression on them as well) to bring the peaks with in 5 db or so on the master fader. But I'm new at this and I may not be utilizing these tools to their utmost (hence the post!)
I then apply some limiting on the master and bring it up a couple more db, but the voices of the experienced resonate in my head, "don't over limit and squash the track." So maybe I am just not limiting enough.
if you are trying to match super hot commercial recordings level wise a simple limiter on the mix bus is not enough. You would need to smash the mix in order to get the average level up there. If I need a mix to be hot I approach the compression on the individual channels and groups a little differently, compressing harder. I also look for hotspots level wise and deal with them manually using fader automation. When it comes time to home master my chain is usually MDWEQ (if eq is necessary)-Waves LMB-Waves L2. I find the Linear Multiband to be my secret weapon and it can be quite transparent when used correctly. I am catching peaks in the various bands with no more than 2-3 dbs of compression. Then at the limiting stage I never go above 1.5 to 2 dbs of limiting, anymore and the L2 destroys the lowend (at least to my ears). If I need more than 2 dbs of limiting to get the level up there I would go back to the mix and change that.
One other issue which may have to do with my CD rendering/burning process (from DP to iTunes and burned from there).
I'm not sure about the quality of the burn from itunes, can it burn a proper red book master - anyone? I use Jam, Emagic Waveburner is also popular.
The sound of the file in DP is a good bit louder than the sound of the track on the burned CD. So somewhere between export to iTunes and hitting play on my Denon, it is losing volume. And this is with the exact same settings on my mixer. Maybe the CD player isn't calibrated like the outputs of my 828 mkII.
I assume you are monitoring your DP playback and cd playback through an analog device. The level difference is just an analog calibration issue. Try playing your track from the cd player into your DP session using a SPDIF connection and the level should be exactly the same.
Ruairi, off the subject a bit. I know you're in Ireland, but are you Irish?
100% and sometimes proud of it
f you would, plaese tell me what you know of the first name Riley. Is it more of a boy's or 's name over there? Is it common?
I have never heard of anybody here with Riley as a first name. What is common here is the surname Reilly or O'Reilly.
Ok that's me done, its 3.15am here on the Emerald Isle and my 6 year old will be taking no prisoners at 8am 
cheers,
Ruairi
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#511956 - 04/10/04 01:19 AM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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mhimes11
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Thanks so much for the reply! Lots of food for thought in there.
As far as the name . . . we're having our first kid in Aug. (a ) and have been looking through the name books. We came across Riley and immediately liked it. The book said it was Irish so I thought I'd ask : )
Thanks again for all the audio tips.
Thanks,
Mike
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#511957 - 04/11/04 03:43 PM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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Loco
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Originally posted by mhimes11:
2) Applied some gentle limiting on the master bus (at this point the avg. RMS was around -18 db with peaks hitting -9db)
4) Normalized bounced file w/ DP3 normalization
Second... those peaks at -9db.... use the limiter to recover those 9 db plus some 3 db more BEFORE you bounce to disk. On DP that means you still are working at mix bus resolution, so there are more than 40 db to spare.
Third... use the masterworks multiband compressor so you can get a little bit more level and thighter sound. Use all this before bouncing so you can use all the resolution of the mix bus all the way to the end. After the multiband, place the limiter and apply dither to 16 bit right there.
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"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
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#511958 - 04/12/04 08:50 AM
Re: Normaization . . . boosts LF content more?
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Neil Wilkes
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Also, monitoring at 75dB is a tad low.
You are going to notice differences in the mix.
Try going up to 83/85dB.
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