#511885 - 04/08/04 01:53 PM
Thanks George
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3D Audio
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I would like to publicly thank George for his help in pulling off a gargantuan comparison effort. His loan of the primo GML mixers made our job much simpler and more time efficient. I appreciate his generosity and his willingness. And his dedication to the engineering craft.
Thanks George.
Here's a picture of the preamps that were assembled last week at Classic Studio here in Franklin. You can't see the Trident A-Range modules or the Neve 1073s in the back.
There are more pictures at 3dB.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511886 - 04/08/04 05:16 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Curve Dominant
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I'd be grinning ear-to-ear too, Lynn. Talk about a Gearslutz fantasy.
Drool...
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#511887 - 04/08/04 06:06 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Thermionic
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I hope you had good aircon with all that class a circuitry in the room :-)
A couple of Qs if I may: Is there any way I can get a chance to see the GML "primo" mixer? Any 'web-links?
Secondly, do you have a release date for the Preamps in Paradise DVD? I'm champing at the bit here.
Thanks,
Justin
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#511888 - 04/08/04 09:56 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Originally posted by Thermionic:
I hope you had good aircon with all that class a circuitry in the room :-)
A couple of Qs if I may: Is there any way I can get a chance to see the GML "primo" mixer? Any 'web-links?
Secondly, do you have a release date for the Preamps in Paradise DVD? I'm champing at the bit here.
Thanks,
Justin 
More info on 9100
I have slated the release for AES in the fall. If it's done sooner, you can bet I'll let you know.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511889 - 04/09/04 02:51 AM
Re: Thanks George
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PookyNMR
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Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
I'd be grinning ear-to-ear too, Lynn. Talk about a Gearslutz fantasy.
Drool...
_________________________
Nathan Rousu
HV Studio
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#511890 - 04/09/04 09:22 AM
Re: Thanks George
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Thermionic
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Looking forward to that DVD!
Cheers,
Justin
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#511891 - 04/09/04 11:36 AM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Let me tease you just a little bit more.
Jerry Guidroz, the PT wrangler on the sessions, had a great idea of incluing the PT session file on the DVD. So instead of having to line up 300+ sound files before you listen, anyone with PT can just double click on the session and it appears just the way we recorded it. It's 14 tracks wide and 24 playlists deep, one playlist per preamp.
So if you want to hear every instrument through a single preamp, you just choose Playlist A, B, C, all the way up to X. Voila! Every instrument recorded through a Neve, or Trident, or Manley or Cranesong or Great River or Summit at the touch of a button. Better still, you can switch playlists on the fly. So you can listen to drums through Pre A and then switch to Pre B right in the middle of playback. Then just keep switching until you get the combination you like. Then go back and see which preamp you liked on drums, which on bass, which on elec. guitar, which on acoustic guitar, piano, voice.
Isn't that amazing? I think it's so cool.
It reminds me of having a jukebox where you can punch buttons and hear different preamps. It's just that easy. I love it.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511892 - 04/09/04 01:52 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Kendrix
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Registered: 09/06/01
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Sweet.
Reporter to Willie Sutton
Q: "Why do you rob banks?"
A: "Cause thats where the money is."
So Lynn, whats your address?? 
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#511893 - 04/09/04 02:21 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Don't bother. That's not my studio in the picture. And the studio where it was is heavily protected.
18 of those preamps are out on loan to other producer/engineers right now. Many are already on their way back to the manufacturers (three of them were units that no one else has ever heard before).
But stay tuned at my site and I can tease you some more with video clips from the testing. I hope to have some posted by next week. It was a fun time.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511894 - 04/09/04 07:00 PM
Re: Thanks George
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ckevperry
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Registered: 04/10/02
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Originally posted by 3D Audio:
[QB]
So if you want to hear every instrument through a single preamp, you just choose Playlist A, B, C, all the way up to X. Voila! Every instrument recorded through a Neve, or Trident, or Manley or Cranesong or Great River or Summit at the touch of a button. Better still, you can switch playlists on the fly. So you can listen to drums through Pre A and then switch to Pre B right in the middle of playback. Then just keep switching until you get the combination you like. Then go back and see which preamp you liked on drums, which on bass, which on elec. guitar, which on acoustic guitar, piano, voice. QB] 
_________________________
Kevin Perry
Nashville, TN
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#511895 - 04/09/04 07:33 PM
Re: Thanks George
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mantovibe_dup1
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Hi Lynn.
I have a simple question.
Given the fact that the GML 9100 is a bit of a "never to come true dream" for pretty much everybody here, if you needed a VERY HIGH QUALITY unit that would cover the same functions, what would you buy.
I would ask the same to George but I am afraid he wouldn't settle for anything less than the 9100
Thank you much.
Renzo Mantovani
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#511896 - 04/09/04 09:29 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Originally posted by mantovibe: Hi Lynn.
I have a simple question.
Given the fact that the GML 9100 is a bit of a "never to come true dream" for pretty much everybody here, if you needed a VERY HIGH QUALITY unit that would cover the same functions, what would you buy.
I would ask the same to George but I am afraid he wouldn't settle for anything less than the 9100
Thank you much.
Renzo Mantovani
Are you asking if there are cheaper alternatives? Just want to make sure I understand the question.
There are a few other high quality options, but be more specific before I answer.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511897 - 04/09/04 10:43 PM
Re: Thanks George
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mantovibe_dup1
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Hi Lynn and thanks.
Sorry for not being more specific.
I was under the impression that the 9100 was no longer in production. If it is, I certainly would like to know how much it costs although I am sure that a no compromise unit like that comes with a "no compromise" price.
And yes, I would like to know which other high quality options you would point out, including maybe one or two cheaper ones.
Thanks again for taking the time.
-----------------------------
Renzo Mantovani
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#511898 - 04/09/04 10:48 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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I'll turn it over to George then. He would know if it's still available in production and the price. The price I know about is in ca. 1995 dollars. Once George has answered these, I'll have a better idea.
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Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511899 - 04/09/04 11:48 PM
Re: Thanks George
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gm
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Guys, the price to go back into production on the 9100 is so high as to be more or less unmentionable, especially here.
You've got to remember, all of the pots were custom-made. The pan pots are actual sin-cos taper (most folks think that the P.O.S. pan pots in Neve's and SSL's are actual pan pots - they're not). Our main attenuators are custom-designed, custom-fabricated 4-ink/break elements (compared with the typical 2 ink so-called "log" pots commonly available), and more closely correspond to a real audio taper. (In other words, the level changes linearly with constant pot rotation.)
We built this to try to come to terms with whether anyone would really appreciate an ultimate-quality mixer. You could say our research was successful. Precious few have a limitless, all-consuming interest in performance. Not enough to warrant a production run by any means.
George
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#511900 - 04/10/04 03:36 AM
Re: Thanks George
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Saint Johnny B
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GM,
Would it possible to get the POTs themselves into production? Would that be a good step. I know a double-E who says most of the pots out there are crappola. So who knows? Could be good.
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#511901 - 04/10/04 05:32 AM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Originally posted by Johnny B:
Would it possible to get the POTs themselves into production? Would that be a good step. I know a double-E who says most of the pots out there are crappola. So who knows? Could be good.
In all honesty, when you look at the price per channel of the mixer, it's no more than you'd pay for a premium channel strip. But how many people are looking to buy 10 channel strips? It's a huge investment.
I would start by saying that I don't think there's a comparable mixer on the market today that is in the same league. The alternatives out there that I would consider include (George may not agree, but since his is no longer available I'll answer the original question)
1) The Millennia Mixing Suite
 more info on Millennia
I don't even know if this is still available either but it is listed on the Millennia web site still. According to the individual module prices listed, this mixer (with preamps) would cost about $21,000.
(The MM mixer and the GML mixer share a very similar layout and identical chassis and the MM website points out that the modules are interchangeable. I have never understood the link between these two mixers though they both bowed at the same time. George?)
2) Another option would be the API rack mixer.
more info.
Though limited in functionality compared to the GML, I would suspect that this mixer would sound very good (I have never heard one, but based on API's reputation alone, it should be very nice sounding.) The major limitation here is that you would likely only want to do static mixing on it since the standard API knobs are so small and the faceplate format would make it difficult for doing realtime mixing. The resolution on the GML volume pots, on the other hand, made it easy for us to make calibration moves within hundredths of a dB.
3) Or if you want preamps, EQ, compression and aux sends, the 7600 would do the trick.
[img]http://store4.yimg.com/I/mercenary-audio_1789_13499653[/img] *(This image hijacked from Mercenary Audio, so call Fletcher and tell him where you saw it. Maybe he'll send me a T-shirt!)
more info
By the time you add up 10 of these and the master section, though, you're looking at about $30,000. Add the monitor section to that (above) and you're looking at even more. By API console standards (if you haven't priced new APIs recently) that's a serious bargain. To the rest of the world, that's a huge chunk of change.
4) I've also heard people talking about the Daking mixer as a comparable unit. There are two different versions. You can get the full blown version with EQ and preamps for (don't quote me) under $24,000 (10 channels, mind you), or you could go with just the monitor mixer, which I suspect is cheaper but I don't know. Either of those would do the job but they're still not cheap.
more info
Those are the ones that I currently know about. They're al in about the same price range as the GML was 10 years ago, some with more or fewer functions.
I hope that helps.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511902 - 04/10/04 10:56 AM
Re: Thanks George
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Thermionic
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Am I the only guy here to suspect if the 9100 had been released 10 years later that the sales situation could be a different story? The concept strikes me as being considerably more in line with current thinking / proliferation of DAW-based facilities than what was happening in '95.
Shall we start a petition for GML to reinstate the 9100? :-)
Justin
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#511903 - 04/10/04 01:12 PM
Re: Thanks George
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jackpine
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Sure... I have a great idea. We'll all chip in and buy one together. Then share it yeah that's it sharing. It can start out at my shop. :rolleyes:
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#511904 - 04/10/04 02:58 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Curve Dominant
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posted by GM:
The pan pots are actual sin-cos taper (most folks think that the P.O.S. pan pots in Neve's and SSL's are actual pan pots - they're not).
That would seem to beg the question: If a pan pot on a mixer is not an actual (sine-cosine) pan pot, than what is it they are using instead?
Sorry for such a geeky question, but I get curious about these little details.
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#511905 - 04/10/04 03:03 PM
Re: Thanks George
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mantovibe_dup1
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Lynn......A MILLON THANKS! 
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#511906 - 04/10/04 03:14 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Originally posted by Thermionic:
Am I the only guy here to suspect if the 9100 had been released 10 years later that the sales situation could be a different story?
The economics of producing and selling a $30,000+ line mixer these days are daunting. Remember we're not talking preamps, EQs, dynamics, or lots of bussing. We're talking Line In, Insert In and Out, Direct Out, a Stereo Mix Bus and 4 Auxes. 10 Channels. There are plenty of people out there who would want something like that. But in these days of computer driven, multifunction boxes that cost under $200, everyone would want to spend $2000 for it. It can't be done. I have it on good authority that the GML mixer has $750 worth of pan pots in it. And that's just with them sitting in a box on the workbench.
Nevertheless, if you could gather up two dozen people with $40,000 each that wanted one of the GML mixers and was willing to pay upfront, then I bet George might be willing to listen. Short of that, I'd save your breath.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511907 - 04/10/04 03:15 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Disclaimer:
That last part was pure speculation on my part.
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Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511908 - 04/10/04 04:15 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Thermionic
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I see your point Lynn. The industry in '95 compared to now? Rather different animals...
(Pure speculation here) However, the reason I mentioned that a 9100-type mixer could have more of a niche today is partly due to that reason, i.e studios are not buying the 1mil consoles, and a modular system such as the 9100 would enable them to obtain cost-no-object performance without laying out the corn for a K-series. It is stupid for me to speculate though as I have no idea what the 9100 retailed for.
Another reason why I would cite the 9100 as “ahead of the pack” would be that, IMHO, studios of the future are likely to break away from the large-format consoles, why be stuck with 96chnls of one sound? To me, an ideal mixer would have several channels from numerous oems.
As we know, large studios are going the way of the dinosaur at the moment (not a good thing, there’s more to a pro studio than kit, acoustics anyone?) and one has to wonder if the composer’s studios (which do not have the constraint of trying to attract the next pop fad) will form a sizable part of the future market. If you take the commercial necessity for a large console out of the equation then the logical approach (IMHO) would be to use a “Frankenstein” set-up that gives you the strengths of a variety of oems topologies.
Having said that, if a 9100 costs a similar rate to say, a second-hand e-series, then I can understand why GML would be reluctant to re-release the product (I’m talking commercially here, not comparing class a to an e-series…)
Would it possible to get the POTs themselves into production? Would that be a good step. I know a double-E who says most of the pots out there are crappola. So who knows? Could be good.
Even with the state of the studio market, I still suspect that a 9100-type mixer could sell more units today than 10yrs ago purely on the basis of “fashion”, but maybe I’m wrong…
Cheers,
Justin
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#511909 - 04/10/04 06:05 PM
Re: Thanks George
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gm
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Originally posted by Curve Dominant: posted by GM:
The pan pots are actual sin-cos taper (most folks think that the P.O.S. pan pots in Neve's and SSL's are actual pan pots - they're not).
That would seem to beg the question: If a pan pot on a mixer is not an actual (sine-cosine) pan pot, than what is it they are using instead?
Sorry for such a geeky question, but I get curious about these little details.
The "normal" pan-pot as found in very nearly every console I've ever laid ears on is fabricated by taking a dual linear taper pot and "slugging" it. This means that a resistor is tied between the "top" of the track and the wiper on both sides such that the attenuation in the center is 3dB instead of 6dB (as would be expected of a linear pot into a suffciiently high load). Unfortunately, the taper is nothing close to a sin-cos taper. You who have sat for hours in front of a console mixing, and actively using pan pots to postion sounds, have wondered why you'll turn the pot from 0 degrees to + (or minus) 50 or 60 degrees with very little image movement, and then turning it through the last 10 to 20 degrees of rotation results in most of the movement happens. It's because it's not really a pan-pot!
Shhhh, nobody tell anybody.
George
p.s. I'd love to hear from anyone who knows of a modern manufacturer who actually uses sin-cos pots.
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#511910 - 04/11/04 09:47 AM
Re: Thanks George
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Fletcher
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Originally posted by Thermionic:
Am I the only guy here to suspect if the 9100 had been released 10 years later that the sales situation could be a different story?
If, if, if, if,... if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...
_________________________
Fletcher Mercenary Audio Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light
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#511911 - 04/11/04 04:00 PM
Re: Thanks George
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Gtoledo3
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GM,
Were the original pan pots, which I believe were designed by Disney, implemented in the proper way, or was it only later that a truly linear pan was developed?
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#511912 - 04/12/04 10:34 PM
Re: Thanks George
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3D Audio
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Originally posted by 3D Audio: [QUOTE]2) Another option would be the API rack mixer.
more info.
No endorsement, just offering options and information.
_________________________
Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB
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#511913 - 04/13/04 05:44 PM
Re: Thanks George
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adebar
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The API 8200A is already out - saw it at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt a week ago.
Lynn, to your list of line-mixers or small high-end systems i´d like to add the Integrator from ADT-Audio
http://www.adt-audio.com/Products/Integrator/IntegratorMainPage.html
The 9100 was a little ahead of its time - even the metering.
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