#511714 - 04/03/04 05:28 PM
Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
MartyBilecki
Member
Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Orland Hills,Il.
|
Offline
|
|
I'm tired of getting a clunky hi hat sound with my recordings.. Can you guys tell me what hat size,brand and models you have found to give you that bright chinky sound.. I'm tired of radical eq from the console to get close to what I think I like to hear . The hats I have in our house kit are a set of Zildjian rock a 14's and a set of a 14 mastersounds... My normal hat mic is a Neumann km 184 thru a Night Technologies pre eq3 .
I checked out the Zildjian web site and saw recording 12's and 13's.. Are these hats my best bet??
thanks Marty Bilecki Orland Hills,Il.
http://www.performancesound.com
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511715 - 04/03/04 08:58 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Allan Speers
Platinum Member
Registered: 09/07/00
Posts: 1277
Loc: Suffern,NY,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Marty, there is no easy answer.
I have been experimenting lately with the hats thing myself.
First, most drummers have told me that they choose 13's more for speed and feel than sound. I would agree with this. I have about ten pairs of 14's and five pairs of 13's, and some of the 14's are softer / quieter than any of the 13's. The big difference with the smaller diameters, in terms of sound, is that they typically give a tighter stick-closed sound. Personally, I prefer the 14" sound in most tracks.
Regardless of the above, one big question is: Do you really need to close-mic the hats themselves? Most engineers I know will mic the hats, but then never use that track in the mix, because of all the snare leakage.
So, that means you need really loud hats, to compete with the crashes in the overheads, and they must have the proper eq naurally built in. This is a daunting but noble quest, especially if you want to try the currently in-vogue "purist" drum-micing techniques. There is definitely something to be said for using just one kick, one snare, and one O-H mic.
-But lets throw out that idea for now and concentrate on what you are specifically trying to do:
quote: "I'm tired of getting a clunky hi hat sound with my recordings.."
Clunk usually comes from thicker, heavier hats. Again, it's not really a diameter thing. The Zildjian Z series is a good example of a very thick, clunky hat. Great for live, but awfully agressive and thick if close-miced. Your Zildjian rock a's are pretty similar.
A good example of a thin, crisp hat is the Sabian fast-hats. also their studio hats. Even at 14", you can get really close without an overbearing sound.
Old, thin Zildians are great, as are new beats and quick beats.
Bear in mind also that the thinner, lighter-sounding cymbals are lower in volume than what you're used to, so you will likely have more gain on the hats mic. Therefore, you may want to try a dynamic mic. Condensers will pick up a lot more of the snare, even off-axis.
A 57 will work, though I like the type of dynamic with no proximity-effect, or even an omni. Shure SM53, EV 635, etc etc etc ... there's lot's of 'em and they're relatively cheap, so experimenting is easy.
Lately, I've also been experimenting with a small baffle between the hats and the snare. Works great for me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This should get you thinking in the right direction. Now you just have to spend some time and money and experiment your butt off. Enjoy the journey!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511716 - 04/03/04 11:37 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Tedly Nightshade
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Allan's definitely talking good sense there, tagline too!
The one thing I will add is that it's unlikely that the hat will not be loud enough... loud hats are a real hazard on feeble playback systems- sometimes it seems like a solo hi hat track with a band and singer backing it up. That can work for jazz, where the backbeat is really the hi-hat, but most times is to be avoided. So I wouldn't worry about the hats not being loud enough if you go with thin hats.
The thinnest hat should go on top, where the stick hits it- of all my 14" hats, I have been going with a cheapie sheet metal 70s A Zildjian- the thing isn't even cast. But it's working nicely. The bottom hat needs to be a bit thicker, to prevent mush- the thinnest cast cymbal you can find will likely be thick enough, but usually the bottom hat is thicker than the top hat.
Then there's the air-lock issue- there's a little adjustment to let you tilt the top hat, and messing around with that will get you very different sounds. Get it just right, things will sound more like you want. Vented cymbals can help with the air-lock thing too, but are not necessary.
Also the little felt washers that the cymbal sits on can damp the cymbal too much. Cutting these to be smaller or using some of the more spherical rubber ones will make the cymbals brighter and more lively.
Definitely- let the cymbal ride free! Don't clamp it down and kill the vibrations. Let it wobble some in the fixture there.
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511717 - 04/04/04 03:14 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
PookyNMR
Senior Member
Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
|
|
Offline
|
|
I've had good luck with 13" Piaste hats. Also UFIP hats seem to get some nice clear sounds. Getting hats with (the bottom hat) a clam shell type shape seems to work nice too.
Nathan
_________________________
Nathan Rousu
HV Studio
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511718 - 04/04/04 04:26 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Bill Mueller
Senior Member
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 147
Loc: Maryland
|
|
Offline
|
|
14" Zildjian quick beats with a km84 above and across the hat aimed away from the snare. DO NOT add high end, roll off the bottom end all the way up to 500hz. Then if you decide to mix it in, you are only adding articulation, not grunge.
Quick beat hats have holes drilled in the bottoms and the air goes out there instead of the edge, which removes all of the wind noise. These hats are the deal as far as I'm concerned, whether you use a close hat mic or not.
I also want to point out that most of the balance in a drum recording comes from the DRUMMER, not the mic levels. If you have a ham fisted drummer who can't lay off the hat (and then usually plays his snare behind the beat) there isn't much you can do but collect your check.
Best Regards,
Bill
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511719 - 04/04/04 01:27 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Injun Killer
Senior Member
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 263
|
|
Offline
|
|
I've never gotten a decent HH sound with a dynamic mic. I think the best HH mics are cheap, bright condensers, like Oktavas. A Neumann is too flat. I would try an MK012 with an omni capsule. Clamp it to the shaft so it moves up and down with the top hat; that way, you can place it extremely close, and the low-end rumble should be reduced.
_________________________
MEGATRON FOR PRESIDENT 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511720 - 04/04/04 01:35 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
where02190
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Pay attention to your overhead placement. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I sue a hat mic mixing. I get all my hat sound, and the majority fo my kit sound, via overheads and room mics. Let them capture the full sound of the kit, and use close mics for what you need the definitition on, usually kick and maybe snare. Les mics means less phase issues, which gives a fuller, ore natural sound.
Of course the sound of the kit and room play a huge part in this, and if either are below par, then the overall sound will suffer. Howeve rif you like what you are hearing acoustically, then work on your techniques of capturing that sound.
Having said that, my fav hats are our ancient Paiste 602's...14".
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511721 - 04/04/04 01:45 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
joeq
Senior Member
Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 141
|
|
Offline
|
|
what are you using for overheads? how are they positioned? a lot of the hi hat sound comes from them.
In fact, like many others, most of the time I do not use a dedicated hi hat mic
what about sticks?. wood ? nylon tips?
whatever you do, don't order new cymbals from the internet- especially Zildjians- they are like snowflakes: every one is different- you need to hear them in person
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511722 - 04/05/04 03:33 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Bardstown Audio
Senior Member
Registered: 06/17/01
Posts: 98
Loc: Bardstown, Kentucky USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
14" K Hi Hats of the K Zildjian Series work very well for all of my music recordings (primarily jazz) using overhead DPA B&K 4003's with nose cone attachments.
Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
http://www.bardstownaudio.com
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511723 - 04/05/04 03:54 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
tuchel
Senior Member
Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 96
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Try the heavier paiste HH. That real hi end is not prominent like in many Zil's, so you can get a smooth overall sound, if you boost 10k it won't make your ears bleed.
tuchel
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511724 - 04/05/04 04:37 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
GreggTL
Senior Member
Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 103
|
|
Offline
|
|
Question for A. Spears
Could you PLEEEASE give a photo or description of the baffle you talked about.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511725 - 04/05/04 02:34 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Tedly Nightshade
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Mmmm, I got to get an old 602 or two to complement the various Zildjian hats around here...
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511726 - 04/05/04 10:02 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
Allan Speers
Platinum Member
Registered: 09/07/00
Posts: 1277
Loc: Suffern,NY,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Ted,
Be aware that the 602's, while wonderfully complex, are not very bright. They are thus typically used by jazzers. They can definitely work for pop/rock with a good dose of eq, but I have not had good success with them if just using O-H mics, and I have three pairs
Greg,
I can't really explain my baffle in words, as it's a complex thingy that also dampens the hats when fully open. -I use two sets of hats and need to keep one set from ringing out when I let go and switch to the other set. however, for your purposes, just tape a hunk of dense, open-cell foam to a boom stand. Wedge it in-beteen the hats and snare. Pretty simple. It doesn't do a lot, but it does help.
--------------------------------------
Pricey, you wrote
"Clamp it to the shaft so it moves up and down with the top hat; that way, you can place it extremely close"
-That's a pretty cool idea, and I can't wait to try it (with a dynamic mic, sorry!) -However, doesn't this pickup some mechanical noise? How do you avoid that?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511727 - 04/06/04 03:16 AM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
GreggTL
Senior Member
Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 103
|
|
Offline
|
|
I clip an AKG C451B to the hat spindle. I locut at 150 on the mic (its locut doesn't go higher), and I usually locut it somewhere between 450-600 when I mixdown. Sounds good. This is pop music...I won't swear you won't hear some mechanical noise on light jazz, but I'm awfully sure you won't.
By the way, some kinds of tomtom mic clips will hold onto the spindle instead of the drum rim they were intended for...and some won't.
My hihat clip is actually a tomtom clip...it says 'B&K' on both knobs.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#511728 - 04/06/04 04:30 PM
Re: Help me get a better hi hat sound please!!
|
tsunami
Senior Member
Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 31
Loc: Kuala LUmpur,,MALAYSIA
|
|
Offline
|
|
try mic from the bottom of the hats ! pointing upward n away from snare..
It give a smoother hi end sound without the hitting stick sound!
It may not work on more rhythmic song though..
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
