#511551 - 03/31/04 12:11 PM
I assume George is going for the ICON
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Poelo
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After reading George's posts for over three years now, I'm pretty sure he's going for the new ICON-controller from Digidesign.
In retrospect, I wonder how anyone could ever have seen a future in digital consoles like Oxford, AMS and such. Not that I myself was ever overly smart, but I always saw the end of it coming with the increasing horsepower of computers.
It all depends on your budget of course, but look at all the big digital consoles out there and how much money people invested. What if they had gone for an analog kind instead, and what a difference in secondhand value.
/Poelo
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#511552 - 03/31/04 12:41 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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gm
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Actually, I have no plans for the ICON at this time. I would like to look at it closely, and shall do so at the earliest opportunity provided by Digi.
George
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#511553 - 03/31/04 01:46 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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Originally posted by Poelo:
In retrospect, I wonder how anyone could ever have seen a future in digital consoles like Oxford, AMS and such. Not that I myself was ever overly smart, but I always saw the end of it coming with the increasing horsepower of computers.
/Poelo
A control interface dooes not make up for a console. Not by a longshot.
Not yet, anyway.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511554 - 04/01/04 01:34 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Touchwood Studios
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I have had a chance to look at ICON up close it's much more than any console, mic-pre's, convertors, recording/editing. The layout of the desk is great the full size desk is big so the ergonomics would be great for mixing. Digi I think finally has a product that will compete with Euphonics/Fairlight & SSL. It looked pretty interesting to me.
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#511555 - 04/01/04 02:01 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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It's not a console though.
It has no eq, or mic-pre's
It's a controller.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511556 - 04/01/04 02:30 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Nika
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Hench - ICON indeed does have mic pres, converters etc.
D-Control does not.
Nika.
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#511557 - 04/01/04 03:06 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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I see. It's all just a bi confusing how this is presented.
So it's the $120k version that gives you all the mic pre's?
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IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511558 - 04/01/04 03:07 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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I see. It's all just a bi confusing how this is presented.
So it's the $120k version that gives you all the mic pre's?
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511559 - 04/01/04 03:56 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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tc4542@home.com
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It's a glorified Pro-Control. If you spend all of your money and buy all of their stuff you'll end up with ICON. The sound, be it acceptable or unaccceptable, will not change as it uses all the current HD stuff available now. This is how I understand it. It depends on how many PRES, 192s, etc. you buy separately. It will be more than 120K,more like 150K+.
Thanks,
Ted.
http://www.upstairsproductions.com
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#511560 - 04/01/04 03:59 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Nika
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"ICON" is a name for a completely integrated Protools system, that may or may not include the following components:
Protools HD Accel
192/96ios
SyncIO
MidiIO
DigiPRE
D-Control
X-Mon
etc.
The D-Control is just the surface. It is not that much different than, say, a large desk that can be purchased somewhat modularly - different options add or change certain functionalities.
Nika.
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#511561 - 04/01/04 05:07 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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It is really funny to see some typical naysayers just bashing about things that they have not even put hands on. If the price for the icon is ok or not depends on how well it is integrated with the Software. On most if not every digital mixing system there is a controller and a mainframe. The Audio does never pass the knob you are turning. The knob is just giving information what to do in the mainframe. Good digital mixing systems try to act so, that you believe that the audio is going to the knob you actually turn.
ProControl or C24 are not very well integrated into the software. the D- Control may be integrated perfectly or not, but to know one first has to try. Then it will be clair if it is just a "controller" or a well integrated mixing (and btw etiting and record) system.
Daniel
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#511562 - 04/02/04 02:06 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Injun Killer
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150K for a Pro Tools system.
That will be obsolete in 3 years.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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#511563 - 04/02/04 02:22 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Bill Mueller
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From what I can see there is absolutely nothing wrong with the ICON, except maybe the price.
The concept is such that if Digidesign were really smart they could eliminate almost every other high end console on the market. Just like they accept software plugins from other manufacturers, Digidesign could accept hardware plugins for the system. Perfectly integrated tube preamps, surround compression systems, time based efx, exotic dynamics, SSL or GML eq's etc, etc. Not emulations, THE REAL THING. Hardware then becomes rack mount boxes with interface software and Digi builds the controler, recording/automation/editing system. Manufacturers just build their control software to Digi's specs.
We can then all have fully customized, unique systems, all totally compatable with each other. The only thing missing is high speed data transfer from studio to studio, including auto backup via T3 lines to a huge central Digi data bank.
I was foolish to suggest this to Tascam a few years ago when I thought they might actually be interested in professional audio. It is only natural that Digi complete the circle and bring the Portastudio to its ultimate conclusion. A professional, fully integrated, hardware/software compatable console/recorder.
Best Regards,
Bill
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#511564 - 04/02/04 03:10 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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Originally posted by Bill Mueller:
It is only natural that Digi complete the circle and bring the Portastudio to its ultimate conclusion. A professional, fully integrated, hardware/software compatable console/recorder.
Best Regards,
Bill
By a few years.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511565 - 04/02/04 03:18 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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popstar
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Originally posted by Bill Mueller:
The concept is such that if Digidesign were really smart they could eliminate almost every other high end console on the market. Just like they accept software plugins from other manufacturers, Digidesign could accept hardware plugins for the system. Perfectly integrated tube preamps, surround compression systems, time based efx, exotic dynamics, SSL or GML eq's etc, etc. Not emulations, THE REAL THING. Hardware then becomes rack mount boxes with interface software and Digi builds the controler, recording/automation/editing system. Manufacturers just build their control software to Digi's specs.
Best Regards,
Bill
"open up" the system so that other good manufacturers can "share the love" so to speak? I'd sure be happy to see a more open approach.
poPsTAr
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#511566 - 04/02/04 04:10 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Curve Dominant
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It's always easy to bash something before you see where it's going.
This ICON system is only the latest step in an ongoing evolutionary cycle.
The initial offering price of a new system like this is usually about 60% higher than what it will eventually settle into in a few years, once demand increases and production is streamlined.
Then there are the possibilities, which will only be realized by the people who are willing to dive in and realize them.
I'll bet that in the near future, an ICON system equipped with MDW-designed EQs and dynamics will be the defacto "large console" equivelent of the systems past.
And I'll bet there will be peeps who will bitch about that. Same as it ever was.
You gotta give Digi this: They do not stand still. These folks are f'real-f'real when it comes to Pro Tools world domination.
I don't see ANY other company stepping up like that. Motu? Emagic? Mackie?
Neve??
Sony???
Nuendo - close, but no cigar.
Fairlight? They had their chance. Coulda/shoulda/woulda...but no cross-platform compatibility with smaller and more economical models = no cross-market growth. So Fairlight got outflanked by Digi, end of story.
Patterns emerge.
Digidesign always played their cards their own way, and they always came out on top. Every time peeps said they were on the verge of obsolesence, they came out with something that changed the game.
They were first on the scene with Mix+ and the "ProControl."
Then, they hit the "down" market with the 001.
Then before you could blink, they hit the "up" market with HD.
Then hit the "down" market again with the 002.
And now here comes ICON to hit the "up" market, preceeded by Accel.
This is a company that has demonstrated a history of willingness and ability to get out on the bleeding edge in a mass way.
Given those odds, I think that any audio engineer would be remiss to pass up any opportunity to at least demo this system.
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#511567 - 04/02/04 04:31 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Duardo
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In retrospect, I wonder how anyone could ever have seen a future in digital consoles like Oxford, AMS and such. Not that I myself was ever overly smart, but I always saw the end of it coming with the increasing horsepower of computers.
/Poelo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I, as you may have read in the Icon thread, completly disagree.
A control interface dooes not make up for a console. Not by a longshot.
Not yet, anyway.
The main advantage to that is that when one component of the system becomes outdated it can just be replaced....and in this case, the most expensive component (the D Control surface) is the least likely to become outdated. When Digi replaces the HD systems with something else, the control surface will still be able to work...even if they move over to a DSD-based system.
With a digital console, for the most part you're stuck...stuck with its converters, processing power, preamps, or whatever. Sure, the OS can be updated, but they're much more likely to become obsolete sooner.
-Duardo
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#511568 - 04/02/04 04:35 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Curve Dominant
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even if they move over to a DSD-based system.
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#511569 - 04/02/04 04:45 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Gtoledo3
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Curve, they didn't hit the scene with the mix+...
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#511570 - 04/02/04 04:52 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Curve Dominant
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Whatever.
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#511571 - 04/02/04 04:55 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Curve Dominant
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They did something.
Have a cocktail or something, Toledo. You need to lighten up.
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#511572 - 04/02/04 09:56 AM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Bill Mueller
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Henchman,
Actually, fairlight beat them to the punch.
By a few years.
Bill
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#511573 - 04/02/04 02:00 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Injun Killer
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If I'm following you, Bill, you're saying Digi will achieve/maintain supremacy by extending the "plug-in" concept to analog consoles. A modular analog console with standardized connectors, that will accept EQ's, comps, or complete channel strips from a variety of manufacturers. Digi's forward thinking will drive AMS-Neve and SSL out of business.
That's actually a great idea, but it's not what Digi is doing. Digi are a bunch of tin-eared mooks who are firmly committed to all-digital recording and mixing. In MIX magazine's infamous Digi-written retraction of the Dangerous 2-Bus review, Digi heaped scorn on the idea of using an analog summing bus, even thought a LOT of their users work this way.
The ICON is designed to look and feel like an analog console without actually being one. Some people have said that PT would be a perfect system if it just had a real tactile interface like an SSL. The ICON should make them happy. It will also impress technically ignorant clients. But it won't make the analog junkies happy.
The ICON would be a good product for film sound, where 150 grand is not a lot of money and speed is of paramount importance. But for music, it's ludicrous.
Apparently you guys are so grateful that Digi FINALLY gave you features that native DAW's have had for years, such as plug-in delay compensation and the ability to run DSP-intensive plugs at 96k, that you actually think Digi is innovative. Charging an analog price for a digital product is not innovative.
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#511574 - 04/02/04 02:10 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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Originally posted by Duardo:
[QUOTE]But all that a digital console is is a control interface with an integrated computer. Same thing as the Icon system will be, except the computer and processing will be in a separate unit.
-Duardo
The Icon is a faderpack, with no built in processing,
that is relying on the computer that is running the daw, to do everything.
Big difference.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511575 - 04/02/04 02:34 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Touchwood Studios
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I think it's a great marketing move. If you bought an SSL Axiom a few years ago your stuck @ 48K very expensive to upgrade. With Icon components can be upgraded, You can add 3rd party, pre-amps, Convertors, upgradeable CPU, expandable DSP. I think it's a lot better than any closed system.
Everything depreciates a Synclav could have cost $150K or more in the 80's
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#511576 - 04/02/04 02:54 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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The fact that most post-production is still being done at 48k, kinda makes that point completel;y irrelevant.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511577 - 04/02/04 03:41 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Loco
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Stop the presses!!!! Curve has spoken!!!
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
The initial offering price of a new system like this is usually about 60% higher than what it will eventually settle into in a few years, once demand increases and production is streamlined.
Yep. Like your posts...
They were first on the scene with Mix+ and the "ProControl."
Then, they hit the "down" market with the 001.
Then before you could blink, they hit the "up" market with HD.
Then hit the "down" market again with the 002.
And now here comes ICON to hit the "up" market, preceeded by Accel.
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"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
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#511578 - 04/02/04 03:49 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Duardo
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No. A digital console is a dedicated piece of hardware with a dedicated processor, usually designed to do one thing very well. And that is, be a mixer.
The Icon is a faderpack, with no built in processing,
that is relying on the computer that is running the daw, to do everything.
Big difference.
The Icon (as Digidesign has designated it) is actually the complete system which includes the control surface and the DAW itself. And even though it resides in a computer, most of the processing is being done on Digi's dedicated hardware. It's really not that different at all, except that when the market demands something new (higher sampling rates, bit depth, DSD format, or whatever) you can upgrade just that one part of the system, whereas with a dedicated digital console, you can't.
I guess this is all kind of moot until we see how well the D Control actually works...
-Duardo
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#511579 - 04/02/04 04:56 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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Henchman
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What you are not understanding, is that you are tied to the way the PT's mixer is set-up and works.
Which isn't exactly great.
When you have a console, it is much easier and faster to do certain things, that you cannot do a sfast and seamlessly in the current way Pro-Tools is set-up as a mixer.
So, for me, a separte Mixer and Daw si still the best, becasue you hav e the best of both worlds, instead of soem hacked together kludge of a pretend mixer.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#511580 - 04/02/04 05:52 PM
Re: I assume George is going for the ICON
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charles_maynes
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This thread has gotten really idiotic-
The AMS and Harrison digital consoles have always been "Control Surfaces". Their back ends have always been remotely located.
The Euphonix has always been this way as well.
The ICON surface is stylistically a similar sort of device. The thing that is really attractive about it though is the ability to scale it pretty inexpensively. That is actually the strength of the Surface being more expensive than the engine-
I think it is unfair to totally write Digidesign off because of the gaff regarding the 2 buss business. They were dumb, and ended up looking bad but it does not invalidate the system. Sure, ProTools has evolved a lot over the last 10 years, but that is what we expect. PT didn't start out as the Synclav of it's time, but It has perserved and made it's way into a truly industry standard system. Some people think the internal mix buss sucks, Others are earning a fine living with it. No one is being forced to use it.
As to the ICON, It has taken a long time for Digi to be able to field such a high end piece of gear- But they have built both a physical and financial infrastructure to support their decision.
Is it done- certainly not, Are there improvements to be made- I would expect so.
The interesting thing about the ICON, is that it may actually generate some new, good facilities. 180k for a surface is a lot more affordable than an equal-sized SSL or Harrison desk. So in that way it will allow for a lot more bang for the buck.
End Rant-
charles maynes
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