#511318 - 03/28/04 02:10 AM
Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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I need to start making money with my gear so I'm considering live band recordings. My target market (here in Indianapolis) will be the indie/prog/alt/rock genre where there's usually a drummer, 1 or 2 guitarists, a bass and one main singer (and maybe some back-ups). The problem is that I want only to lug out my Tascam DA-78 which has only 8 tracks, and an 8 channel preamp mount (besides mics and cables and such). Is it possible for me to track bands like this in a small venue where the instruments aren't miked with only 8 tracks and no mixer involved? I actually have 2 DA-78's so I could use that one too if necessary and I also have an 8 channel mixer too, but I just really dont' want to go that route. Am I fooling myself or should I add a mixer and maybe the other DA-78? Anyone else out there completed a good sounding live recording with only 8 tracks?
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#511319 - 03/28/04 05:02 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Dasher
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They used to make great sounding recordings live with 3 tracks-and before that, even one! Orchestras sometimes are recorded with only two mikes...
Mike quality and placement is everything. Of course it helps to have some way to compress or limit the sound on the way in, live can be unpredictable.
Dasher
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It's all about the music. Really. I just keep telling myself that... The Soundsmith
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#511320 - 03/28/04 06:16 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Philip O'Keefe
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I'd rather have 16 tracks, or at least a mixer, but yes, you can do it with only 8, if you're willing to give up some flexibility later on when you go to mix.
Assuming the mixer was available, and it was a live recording I'd have something like this:
Trk 1 / 2 Drum submix
Trk 3 Bass
Trk 4 Gtr 1
Trk 5 Gtr 2
Trk 6 Ld VOX
Trk 7 BGV's (submix if needed)
leaving track 8 open for kick or whatever the situation called for. And if there's no BGV's, I'd add a snare mic and make tracks 1/2 a overheads / toms submix.
There's lots of options available, and I'd prefer the 16 tracks (an audience / ambience mic, extra drum mics, BGV's printed to individual tracks, etc. etc), but if you had to capture something live on 8 tracks, it can be done.
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#511321 - 03/28/04 09:59 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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This real cheap recording for a club.
Two PZM mics high, away from the crowd. Then use additional mics to catch the voices.
It gives a good representation of what the band sounds like.
Here's a recording with only two PZM mics mounted on walls about 15 to 25 feet away from the band.
Chandler Travis Live at the Midway Cafe, Boston, MA
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#511322 - 03/28/04 01:08 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Tedly Nightshade
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Yes.
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"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#511323 - 03/28/04 02:41 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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ustah
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I made some recordings with Alesis HD 24[24 tracks] really happy with it[if you can swap your tascam for this or ??].Also as Phil explained in previous post,that's how I did with only 8 tracks[with motu 828]of course I took sub out's from main mixer.!
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#511324 - 03/28/04 03:18 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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Original MSG Poster here: Thanks for all the input on this so far, especially you Philip O'Keefe. I was kind of thinking along those lines already (directed to Philip).
Unfortunately I was unable to listen to the music posted...my computer and connection both suck! Just to clarify though, I've heard my share of Phish bootlegs and thats NOT the sound I want. I would prefer to have a more "in your face sound" than the "here's exactly what it sounds like when you're there" small sound that bootlegs generally have.
Everything I read about live recordings suggestions picking up on the audience, but I just don't understand that. I find that to be a major distraction when I listen to most live recordings, one I'd rather not have. Is that acceptable for that to be "my style" - a lack of audience presence? Afterall, I'm not going to be able to eleminate the audience altogether, especially whistles and screams and during silences. I can always fade out on audience banter after songs are over.
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#511325 - 03/28/04 03:27 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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Before you dismiss the recording, you should hear it. It doesn't sound like a bootleg.
http://music.multifarity.com/AnotherThing.mp3
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#511326 - 03/28/04 08:43 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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What I was saying was that I couldn't hear it because of download/computer problems, but only made the bootleg comment to clarify what I was going for.
Oh yeah... I feel like an idiot for asking because I thought I was pretty up on my mic knowledge, but what's a PZM mic? 
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#511327 - 03/28/04 10:12 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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tonyl
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I used to do portable recordings before I had a drum room with one black face adat. an 8 channel comp/gate and a tascam m-208 8 chan. board. Before I got two adats I used to do the whole band to one. And I made money and it sounded good.
Later on when I expanded the studio (more gear no drum room still) i used to do the drum track's somewhere else(Any place I could find!) and then do the rest of the band in my small one room studio. Where there is a will there is a way.
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#511328 - 03/28/04 11:07 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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Here's a brief description of a PZM Mic:
"Like other Pressure Zone Microphones, the PZM-30D utilizes the Pressure Recording Process in which a miniature condenser microphone capsule is mounted in the “Pressure Zone” just above the boundary, a region where sound coming directly from the sound source combines in phase with sound reflected off the boundary. The benefits are a wide, smooth frequency response free of phase interference, with excellent clarity and reach, a hemispherical polar pattern, and uncolored off-axis response."
http://www.coutant.org/6.html
It's a omnidirectional microphone. The difference between this kind of microphone and a conventional microphone is it seems to record as your ears hear. For example, a conventional microphone picks up many room reflections that your ear doesn't perceive. Recording with a PZM microphone seems more congruent with the way you actually hear.
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#511329 - 03/29/04 09:24 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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Are you saying a PZM mic is one of those mics often used in plays and such, placed right off of the floor, or in this instance, off of the walls? Interesting. Never thought of using those, nor have I ever used any. What about venues where the stage placement in relation to the room is VERY asymmetrical (like many clubs in my area); wouldn't that cause problems? Can this be done effectively with one PZM for a mono capturing and mixed with other direct miked tracks (the DA-78 and my mixer can correct for phase/delay problems)?
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#511330 - 03/29/04 11:52 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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Yes, same kind of mic used for plays, also called boundary mics.
Instead of walls you could use a couple of boards. I'm not sure how big they have to be.
I've placed PZMs asymmetrically and have gotten good results. The file I posted had one mic facing the band at 180 degrees and the other on a wall at 90 degrees. One mic was about 25 feet away and the other 15. I just wanted to see how they would work. The band was pleased. I was only using an MBox so mixing the voices would have been a luxury. This band is really good at setting their own volumes, so the recording sounds really good.
I've also placed PZMs close to some bands on small dinner tables. Got an excellent band sound, but the voices were too low, because the PA speakers were behind the mics. The instruments sounded great.
I'm just doing this to record my kid's band so they can learn from their performances, but they come out sounding pretty good. I think a couple of PZMs and catching the vocals on a few other mics can get real good results. If you had three singers you'd use only five channels.
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#511331 - 03/30/04 12:15 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Uh Clem
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Man, that mix has the swirlies big time - maybe an MP3 thing, but at that rate (128) it should be better.
At any rate, you need more than whatever this is to have any control later (in a mix for instance).
What Philip said is my advice - I've done a ton of live stuff with DA78s - tough to get by on just one no matter what - for drums, 2 OHs and a kick can work really well - on a small kit you can use a kick and a mic up in the kit somewhere between the tom and snare but not pointed at either - takes some playing around to make that work.
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#511332 - 03/30/04 01:07 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Raw-Tracks
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Gaotu, I think your answer lies in your first sentence. You want to make money. Not to be blunt, but, if you want to make money, do the job right. You have the extra DA-78, use it. You will get better results if you afford yourself the extra flexibility of 16 tracks vs. 8 tracks.
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#511333 - 03/30/04 11:07 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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What are swirlies?
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#511334 - 03/30/04 02:05 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Extreme Mixing
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Originally posted by EricK:
Gaotu, I think your answer lies in your first sentence. You want to make money. Not to be blunt, but, if you want to make money, do the job right. You have the extra DA-78, use it. You will get better results if you afford yourself the extra flexibility of 16 tracks vs. 8 tracks.
Steve
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#511335 - 03/30/04 03:21 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by alcohol_:
What are swirlies?
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#511336 - 03/30/04 04:18 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Uh Clem
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: Originally posted by alcohol_:
What are swirlies?
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#511337 - 03/30/04 05:25 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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I'm either not getting the swirlies or I'm not hearing them. I got 55 year old years with more than a quarter century of playing in rock bands. Could be my hearing has been that impaired.
I'm going to ask a younger set of ears to see if they can hear em.
Thanks
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#511338 - 03/31/04 12:28 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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Well I'm all about doing it right, and I understand that I should do that to make money, but at the same time I know the latest White Stripes album was done with only 8 tracks. If I could only record on half that level, I think the local alt/indie/punk scene and the bands in it would be fairly satisfied with that. Of course I realize that this is live and not in a studio but still. I've captured very good sounding drums with set-ups not typical to contemporary methods (and hey... Led Zepplin's Kashmere recorded the drums using two ribbons) and have been very pleased with the results. Then again, it's not like I have to buy another DA-78, so maybe I'll just take the advice and use it. At the very least, I think I'll be incorporating a mixer if I'm only bringing along the one.
As for compression on the way in: is that really necessary as long as I watch the levels. Afterall I'll be recording with 24 bits which will allow me a liitle headroom. I can always compress in the mix later. The current article in Recording about Genesis'/Phil Collins' guitar player's live recording album stated that compression wasn't used on the way in. Has anyone here do it that way?
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#511339 - 03/31/04 01:26 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Valkyrie Sound
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You at least need the mixer....
Otherwise, how do you expect to hear the quality of your recording or listen for problems during the show? 
I do most of my live recordings with 8 or less tracks... but I'm also doing classical stuff.
Valky
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#511340 - 03/31/04 01:58 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound: You at least need the mixer....
Otherwise, how do you expect to hear the quality of your recording or listen for problems during the show?
I do most of my live recordings with 8 or less tracks... but I'm also doing classical stuff.
Valky
And no, compression on the way in is absolutely not necessary. if you don't peak higher than -18 on 24 bit you'll be fine- if you peak higher than that, that's cool too. No need to chase digital zero.
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"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#511341 - 03/31/04 11:20 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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gaotu
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Thanks for all the great help and advice thusfar. And to comment further...
Yea I realize the DA-78 has a mixer built-in, but I don't know about the head phone situation. Thanks to the person who pointed out the hearing problems aspect. That totally skipped my mind. Looks like I'm going to have to go with a mixer.
Anyone know of a reliable economical 8 or more channel mixer to get the job done, that preferably will be rack mountable? I'll probably get an 8-Channel pre to power any condensers I use so I won't necessarily want one with phantom power.
And to put in my 2 cents on MP3's. From what I've read and heard, if you use the original software program that made MP3's possible, it causes no degredation or unfavorable alteration to CD quality sound sources when converted back and forth. However, not all programs are created equal here, and many of the knock-off programs don't do nearly as good a job.
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#511342 - 04/01/04 12:34 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by gaotu:
Thanks for all the great help and advice thusfar. And to comment further...
Yea I realize the DA-78 has a mixer built-in, but I don't know about the head phone situation. Thanks to the person who pointed out the hearing problems aspect. That totally skipped my mind. Looks like I'm going to have to go with a mixer.
Anyone know of a reliable economical 8 or more channel mixer to get the job done, that preferably will be rack mountable? I'll probably get an 8-Channel pre to power any condensers I use so I won't necessarily want one with phantom power.
And to put in my 2 cents on MP3's. From what I've read and heard, if you use the original software program that made MP3's possible, it causes no degredation or unfavorable alteration to CD quality sound sources when converted back and forth. However, not all programs are created equal here, and many of the knock-off programs don't do nearly as good a job.
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#511343 - 04/02/04 08:55 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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I'm not detecting any swirlies and I had it checked out by some other people too.
One person thought that the stereo separation sounds very wide and thought that that might be the complaint.
I guess it's possible to place microphones too far apart so that they generate phasing problems. Is this possible? Is there a guidline for how far apart stereo microphones should be?
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#511344 - 04/03/04 11:37 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Uh Clem
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Originally posted by alcohol_:
I'm not detecting any swirlies and I had it checked out by some other people too.
One person thought that the stereo separation sounds very wide and thought that that might be the complaint.
I guess it's possible to place microphones too far apart so that they generate phasing problems. Is this possible? Is there a guidline for how far apart stereo microphones should be?
You get real timimg problems with sources that are different distances from either mic. Try collapsing this recording to mono - it just doesn't work - the sax sounds very strange and in stereo the delay makes the vox and sax sound chorused - unless that is what they sounded like.
The fidelity is not so bad, but the mic placement seems to work against it.
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#511345 - 04/04/04 11:35 AM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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alcohol_
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Thanks Steve,
Going to try a live recording with two tracks of the PZMs and a send from the vocals. This time the mics won't be so far apart.
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#511346 - 04/04/04 01:42 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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where02190
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I've done hundres of live recordings using a pair of post fader aux sends form the FOH console and a pair of audience mics going direct to DAT. Use the console subgroups to mix the house, don't assign the audience mics to anything xcept the aux for recording, and have a good set of headphones and a headphone amp. You can create a separate mix for the recording that you can do suble moves for both house and tape for solos.(the key here is subtle, major moves use the subgroups that don't affect the tape.)
Your first few might not be so terrific, and the room sound is key, but once you get the hang of it you'll get some great stuff. With 8 tracks you can take multiple submixes plus the aux mix, for some tweaking later.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#511347 - 04/04/04 06:45 PM
Re: Can you track a live band w/only 8 tracks
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Uh Clem
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Originally posted by alcohol_:
Thanks Steve,
Going to try a live recording with two tracks of the PZMs and a send from the vocals. This time the mics won't be so far apart.
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