#511298 - 03/27/04 09:46 AM
Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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sfere
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Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 7
Loc: NY
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I've been a lurker for a while and have found this forum to be of great use. So I come again, though now as a member, for your help. I've been slowly moving away from my analog desk and hardware by mixing in the box but I have yet to find any plug-ins that match the sonic depthness that some of my hardware posseses. It's starting to irk me quite a bit as I find myself more an more willing to just buss out and seperate all my tracks from my HD192's to my desk for sweetening. I ask you are there any better plug-ins available than the one's I already posses for delay?
Oh by the way I'm vst based......I can hear the groans already.."no wonder!"
Ohm-Boyz - sounds kinda thin...stereo seperation seems narrow regardless of panning
PsP42\psp84 not bad but still not quite right
Waves Super Tap
Now what worries me is that these "quality" plug-ins don't sound better than a TC Electronics D-Two Delay that I've compared them to!!!
Anybody have any suggestions?
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#511299 - 03/27/04 01:01 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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Albert
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Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 163
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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This may not seem too helpful, but I would suggest you go with your ears and use whatever sounds best to you. If that's hardware, then stick to it. Just because other people have jumped into plugins doesn't mean you need to, there's no rule that says everybody has to use plugins.
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#511300 - 03/27/04 01:56 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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Raki
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Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 40
Loc: Seattle/United States
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I like DP's delay...
Other than that, I don't find any useful delay plug.
It's actually interesting.
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#511301 - 03/27/04 09:46 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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sfere
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Posts: 7
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hmm..2 replies? I guess i don't have much to look forward to eh?
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#511302 - 03/27/04 09:51 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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sfere
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Originally posted by Albert:
This may not seem too helpful, but I would suggest you go with your ears and use whatever sounds best to you. If that's hardware, then stick to it. Just because other people have jumped into plugins doesn't mean you need to, there's no rule that says everybody has to use plugins.
peace
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#511303 - 03/28/04 01:49 AM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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el biciclista
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Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Oregon, USA
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Well, you probably won't like my input, but.....
I tried for four years to make mixing-in-the-box work for me. And I had top quality plug-ins......which I repeatedly paid to upgrade, because each next upgrade would finally get me there.
I have now moved to a hybrid system of using ProTools HD for recording and editing, and doing all my processing in hardware. I don't even sum in ProTools any more; I go out 24 D/A's to processing/reverb, then to a 32-input passive analog summing device. The summing is clearly better. Three conversions total: record thru A/D, out D/A for processing, final A/D to burn CD.
Sorry, but plug-ins just aren't there yet. I really, really wanted them to be. One of these days, with enough horsepower, they'll approach dedicated hardware. But it'll be years, and I'm too old to wait it out!
Specifically for delay, I have:
-TC 2290
-Korg SDD-1200
-Korg SDD-3300.
Can also use: KSP-8, Ensoniq DP/Pro, Lexicon 300, PCM70.
Some oldies, but real goodies.
I really think you are going to be disappointed, if you are accustomed to good quality hardware. I'm sure there are guys who have learned how to make plug-ins work reasonably well.......I'm just not one of them. I'd strongly recommend you not sell any of your favorite hardware, until you are certain you can get equivalent results in the box.
Good luck.
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#511304 - 03/28/04 12:01 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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el biciclista
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Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Oregon, USA
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One comment I forgot to make. I don't think the issue is the 192 converters. My 24 D/A's are:
-Rosettta 800 - 8
-192 I/O - 16
-Total - 24
There is not as much difference between the Rosetta 800 and 192 I/O as I expected, but there is a difference. The Rosetta 800 is warmer, and is usually my first choice for the key tracks.
I believe the issue is more the processing in ProTools. As I said above, analog summing gives a much wider field than summing in ProTools. The only calculations I do in ProTools is level control on the tracks. I send the Outs direct to the 192 I/O interface, without using the busses. Any bussing or manipulations seem to cause degradation.
Also, I am using the HEDD clock as master, with a Big Ben distributing to other converters. I believe the clocking has helped some, also.
Good luck.
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#511305 - 03/28/04 01:27 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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Albert
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Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 163
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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As far as routing:
I have my hardware fx all connected directly to digital I/O on my DAW's hardware. I also have configured the software so that the I/O on each hardware unit appears by name, and can easy be routed to simply selecting it's name in a pull-down menu. It's literally as easy as selecting a plugin. So the hardware fx are integrated into the DAW environment in a seamless manner. Best of both worlds in my opinion.
Like el biciclista, I also have a Kurzweil KSP8 and Ensoniq DP/4. I also use a PCM-81, which has nice delays. Another nice box for delays is the Kurzweil Mangler, really excellent and not expensive. I used to own a Korg SD-3300, but found it a bit noisy. Beautiful delays you can get on that though.
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#511306 - 03/28/04 02:08 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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el biciclista
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Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Oregon, USA
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Albert,
I've also got some hardware connected via AES/EBU. The problem is that when I operate at 96k, most of my units won't work with digital I/O (except HEDD, DSP7000, Reverb 4000).
Alas, always trade offs in the audio world. :rolleyes:
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#511307 - 03/29/04 01:58 AM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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TinderArts
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 5705
Loc: Bowie, MD
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If you have Logic, try the tape delay plug.
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#511308 - 03/29/04 02:21 AM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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Matt.Hepworth
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 2972
Loc: Riverdale, UT
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I'm either retarded or picky as hell, but I have NEVER found a plug-in delay that's even CLOSE to a delay sound I'd want on an album. Nothing sounds right to me and I've tried about everything out there. Trust your ears and don't use it if your ears think it sucks!
_________________________
No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it.
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#511309 - 03/29/04 02:34 AM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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sfere
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Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 7
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thanks you guys...just as I thought...I'll have to stick with a combination of both. Is it me or is there some kind of stereo imaging lost upon summing a whole bunch of tracks to a buss in the box....while doing it on my board doesn't have the same negative results....
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#511310 - 03/29/04 04:39 AM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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doug_hti
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Registered: 05/20/02
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Loc: Calabasas Hills, CA, UNITED ST...
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Pitch Blender is the only thing that I have found that is remotely close for delays. You may have to tweak things, but I think the modulation is as good as plugin delays get.
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#511312 - 03/29/04 12:53 PM
Re: Delay Plugins vs. Hardware...I'm not happy!
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el biciclista
Senior Member
Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Oregon, USA
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sfere,
No question that the image is not as good when summing in ProTools. You'll find plenty of discussion of this and various analog summing devices at gearslutz.com. Life would be much simpler if it were not the case.
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