#510838 - 03/22/04 01:54 AM
Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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mchimes
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Loc: Alexandria,VA,UNITED STATES
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I have an audiophile buddy who I've been wanting to come check out my new control room. It's a pretty nice RFZ room . . . designed by an acoustician, symmetrical splayed walls, soffited monitors, bass trapping, rear wall diffusion, etc.
He has some very pricey audiophile gear at home ($500 for a 2 ft. power cable) but no acoustic treatment. He basically has a bunch of gear in his living room. So I was excited for him to hear some of his gear in a "good" room.
So he came and listened in my room and to my suprise wasn't blown away. I think the room sounds great . . . but I'm admittedly biased. Hey George, we checked out some Jennifer Warne's and Lovett's JJR . . . awesome stuff!
One thing that really suprised me was he said that the imaging in his living room was "better."
At my request he defined what "better" meant . . . better placement, depth, localization, soundstage, . . . indeed all the things you think about "good" imaging.
Now of course, there are people (including my friend) that will tell you that an expensive 2 ft. power cord can make something "deeper," but wouldn't the acoustics of a living room be a detriment to what we think of as "good" imaging.
For your info, I am running Tannoy System 1200s (dual-concentric which ironically are considered "good" for imaging)with a Meyer amp.
He did say the bass was much tighter in my room and that the clarity was more pronounced . . . but that imaging and depth were worse than his living room.
I guess I'm wondering what I should make of this. I do trust his ears to some extent . . . he is a good musician and listener. If the imaging in his living room is indeed "better" why would it be scientifically? or does he mean that he just likes the way it sounds better?
Thanks,
Mike
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#510839 - 03/22/04 02:18 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Extreme Mixing
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He is probably just more used to the sound in his room. Most audiofiles just have too much money and too much time on their hands. As long as your mixes sound good to him in his room, you should be OK. Does he have one of those $500 volume knobs? According to the reviews, they make a huge difference in the sound, too.
Steve
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#510840 - 03/22/04 03:17 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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joeq
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you mention your buddy's expensive power cords but you don't say what he has for speakers. you think those cables are expensive...
Does he own the same Tannoys that you use?
Did he bring his speakers down to your room?
Did you pop them in your soffits?
When you say you are comparing the 'imaging' of the rooms, what other variables are in there?
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#510841 - 03/22/04 03:21 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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joeq
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you mention your buddy's expensive power cords but you don't say what he has for speakers.
Does he own the same Tannoys that you use?
Did he bring his speakers down to your room?
Did you pop them in your soffits?
When you say you are comparing the 'imaging' of the rooms, what other variables are in there?
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#510842 - 03/22/04 03:49 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Curve Dominant
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posted by mchimes:
I do trust his ears to some extent
My experience with "audiophiles" is that they have the WORST ears.
That's why they buy all the most expensive stuff...$500 cables and the like. They don't hear the "imaging and depth" of the sound. They hear the "imaging and depth" of the price tags.
Which explains why SACD is so popular with "audiophiles." SACD is inherently flawed, and inferior to standard Redbook CDs. Yet "audiophiles" will buy the SACD rigs, along with the pricey cables that the appliance store salesmen invariably convince them "MUST BE USED TO APPRECIATE THE DIFFERENCE!!!"
Then the "audiophile" proceeds to lecture you in idiotically unscientific terms such as how much "imaging and depth" you are missing out on.
Don't believe the hype. Trust your ears. Have confidence in what you do.
YMMV.
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#510843 - 03/22/04 05:46 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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There are several possibilities.
1) A great listening room often should sound different than a great studio room. In the listening room a little more reverb time is wanted, as well as more diffusion. A bigger living room with lots of books and other stuff can actually have a good amount of diffusion and must not necessarely sound bad.
2) You did not mentioned his speakers and what amp(s) he uses. In many studio imo the engineers do not spend enough attention to speakers. There are some great speakers out (for hifi and studio applications) but they are expensive. Audiofiles often have "better" speakers and amps than studio. With most speakers used in todays studios you reallly can not make an audiophile happy.
3) The Desk: If a desk is used in a studio imo forget about a great sound. It might still be possible to mix, but the early reflection coming from the desk will kill a natural immiging.
4) Bad Acoustics: In more than the half of the studios in my area the acoustics has mistakes. A great sounding acoustic is rare, and if it is not great it will make problems in the soundfield.
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
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#510844 - 03/22/04 05:48 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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deleted, double post (stupid safari!)
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#510845 - 03/22/04 06:26 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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John Sayers
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That all makes perfect sense to me.
A control room is a work environment and your control room sounds like a good room to work in because your low end is tight, your panning will be true - center phantom speaker is less than a foot wide and sounds like a center speaker and your total imaging up/down forward/back is correct. That's what a RFZ control room is all about.
As Daniel correctly said before, his room is obviously different and would have no low end correction so a longer low end verb time - in fact he'd have a longer general verb time. But I bet his center image is about 3 foot wide and due to all the reflections and phase cancellations the whole image appears wider. Play the same recording in your car and you'd get a totally different picture. These are all environmental factors.
That's why control rooms are a reference point, a calibration, because your mix has to work in all environments, not just on an audiophile's system.
I'd prefer to work in your room.
cheers
john
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#510846 - 03/22/04 10:25 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Homero
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I have learned a lot with "audiophile guys", I think that there is some inexplicable prejudice against then. I have applied some "audiophile tricks" in my small mix studio with superb results. Better cables, new monitors (Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE), Bryston Amps, carefully positioning and de coupling of the monitors have rendered a plus to my small mix studio. Maybe to enhance your stereo image it is only a matter of revise your monitors placement, I do not think that a good image has only to do with more or less room reverb. Better transparency is another question, I am a mastering engineer too and owner of a very nice mastering facility, there you find mostly very fine "audiophile" gear , with no console in front of the speakers, nice acoustics, expensive cables and so on, its the price you have to pay for to get the most on transparency, image and tonal balance. After all it does not mean that your studio does not have a nice sound, it only could be better with some adjustments, always inspect and follow the weak links in your setup.
regards 
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#510847 - 03/22/04 10:53 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Thermionic
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In my experience a control room would be far too "dry" for your average audiophile. I'm screwed if I can figure out how they hear the difference between peripherals that improve the sound by 0.0001% without a treated room, placebo affect methinks...
I recently had a visit from a vinyl dealer who sells rare jazz records. He sits down in my control room and states that there's no way he will listen through the cheap cable rigged from the preamp. So, I leave the cheap one attached but connect a decent XLR to the main o/p, but, at the same time leaving signal routed through the cheapy. I turn the master volume back up and he states "Yes, that's much better"...
Part of my job involves dealing with hi-fi nuts, this is a true story from the week before last: I visit a central London dealer to demo them something on behalf of an oem. I'm sitting in their demo-room surrounded by outrageous hi-fi (not to mention those travesties that are WattGate connectors...). Dealer is wiring up a record deck stating "this is the cheapest mc cartridge we sell at £1500". I say to him: "You don't have much solid-state gear here, why's that?". Dealer responds: "Our clients tend to prefer valves, we don't get much call for s/state". Dealer then goes on to recant various cliches regarding valves sounding "euphonic" etc, blah, blah. I say to him: "Tim de Paravincini has gone on record in numerous interviews stating that he's equally content designing for valve or s/state signal paths, he opts for valves on account of commercial viablity and claims he can attain similar quality results in either discipline". Dealer retorts "Ah yes, our clients have complained that the EAR valve mono-blocks sound too clinical"...
If T d P's transformer-coupled valve amps sound "too clinical", then in my books that means he's doing his job too well. I'm now beginning to think that selling a product to the "audiophile" market is a lottery, dependant not just on your marketing clout, but also whether your product contains some kind of design-flaw that is perceived as appealing colouration... You just can't win...
Cheers,
Justin
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#510848 - 03/22/04 11:13 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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mchimes
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Originally posted by Curve nt: posted by mchimes:
I do trust his ears to some extent
My experience with "audiophiles" is that they have the WORST ears.
YMMV.
Mike
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#510849 - 03/22/04 11:19 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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mchimes
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Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler: There are several possibilities.
2) You did not mentioned his speakers and what amp(s) he uses. In many studio imo the engineers do not spend enough attention to speakers. There are some great speakers out (for hifi and studio applications) but they are expensive. Audiofiles often have "better" speakers and amps than studio. With most speakers used in todays studios you reallly can not make an audiophile happy.
3) The Desk: If a desk is used in a studio imo forget about a great sound. It might still be possible to mix, but the early reflection coming from the desk will kill a natural immiging.
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
As far as my desk, I don't have a consloe, but I do have a desk there that does introduce some HF smearing. So I made these damping panels that sit where the reflection point is and they tame the phasing . . . in fact, I wanted my friend to hear the difference with and without the panels. I asked him to close his eyes and listen to the hi hat as I moved the panels ion and out of position. He really didn't hear anything dramatic . . . which was funny because it was very obvious to me (that's why I made the panels!) I guess phasey reflections are something he is used to.
Mike
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#510850 - 03/22/04 11:23 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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mchimes
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Originally posted by John Sayers:
That all makes perfect sense to me.
But I bet his center image is about 3 foot wide and due to all the reflections and phase cancellations the whole image appears wider. john
He also said that the tonal balance was strange . . . that there weren't enough mids for his taste- like some one dropped the mids on a graphic EQ. Or it could be that the bass response of his room is so amorphous that the mids are more prominent.
Mike
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#510851 - 03/22/04 11:31 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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mchimes
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Originally posted by Homero: I have learned a lot with "audiophile guys", I think that there is some inexplicable prejudice against then. I have applied some "audiophile tricks" in my small mix studio with superb results. Better cables, new monitors (Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE), Bryston Amps, carefully positioning and de coupling of the monitors have rendered a plus to my small mix studio. Maybe to enhance your stereo image it is only a matter of revise your monitors placement, I do not think that a good image has only to do with more or less room reverb. Better transparency is another question, I am a mastering engineer too and owner of a very nice mastering facility, there you find mostly very fine "audiophile" gear , with no console in front of the speakers, nice acoustics, expensive cables and so on, its the price you have to pay for to get the most on transparency, image and tonal balance. After all it does not mean that your studio does not have a nice sound, it only could be better with some adjustments, always inspect and follow the weak links in your setup.
regards
I guess the important thing is learning your room. The last mastering guy (a respected engineer) I went to has a room that seems so "weak" in it's design. It is not only smaller than my room, but doesn't have the smae treatment . . . and he uses nearfields up on the bridge, a sub, etc.
. . . but he knows the room and I guess that is the key.
Mike
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#510852 - 03/22/04 01:04 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Ethan Winer
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Mike,
Here is the defining point:
> he said that the imaging in his living room was "better" ... He did say the bass was much tighter in my room and that the clarity was more pronounced <
This guy is probably confusing the buzzword "imaging" with overall clarity. If you really think his ears are good, invite him over a few more times. He'll eventually come around to understanding why your room is far better than his.
--Ethan
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#510853 - 03/22/04 07:15 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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John Sayers
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You see, that's why I posted. He said exactly the opposite. He said my center image was bigger than his by a good bit. He said at his place it would be a small point right out front whereas mine was large and wider.
cheers
john
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#510854 - 03/22/04 08:32 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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You see, that's why I posted. He said exactly the opposite. He said my center image was bigger than his by a good bit. He said at his place it would be a small point right out front whereas mine was large and wider.
OK - so the next question is how far behind you is that Diffusor you said you had on the rear wall.?? Try covering it up with a mattress.
but to know for sure one had to see and hear both your studio and the audiophile's room.
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
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#510855 - 03/23/04 01:41 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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natpub
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Audiophile listeners are going to want something more euphonic, though they may deny it. Euphony does not equate to accuracy. Often mix rooms may sound downright bland. They are not made to be flattering, they are work rooms.
That said, audiophile grade gear can be very amazing in a mastering setting.
KT
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#510856 - 03/23/04 02:42 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Bill Mueller
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I had a client/friend who was an audiophile. He bugged and bugged me to check out his system with this huge sound field, so one evening I went over to give a listen. We sat down, he put on a record and...his tweeters were out of phase! I swung back and forth in the center space a couple of times and told him what was up. He didn't believe me until I pulled his tweeters out of his cabinets and showed him his cables were wired backwards. He had blown a tweeter shortly after installing the system and the local shop had wired his replacement backwards. So much for golden ears.
Best regards,
Bill
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#510857 - 03/23/04 04:18 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Saint Johnny B
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Not too good with shorthand or acronyms, please explain the term "RFZ." Thanks.
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#510858 - 03/23/04 10:12 AM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Bill Mueller
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Reflection Free Zone
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#510859 - 03/23/04 01:47 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Ethan Winer
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Johnny,
> please explain the term "RFZ." <
See the Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on my Articles page:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html
In particular, read the sidebar "Creating an RFZ" for a complete explanation.
--Ethan
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#510860 - 03/23/04 02:00 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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maarvold
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Hopefully without pissing anyone off, it is interesting to observe this forum's take on audiophilia. I am happy that comments seem a bit less shrill than they used to.
Regarding an audiophile's definition of imaging: a pretty strong case could be made for "the abso!ute sound" being the most purist of the audiophile publications. The definition of 'the absolute sound' is: real [acoustic] instruments heard in real space. The ultimate goal of an abso!ute sound-approved reproduction system would be to make the [electronically] reproduced sound indistinguishable from the sound of the original performance. Therefore, imaging refers to not only all 3 dimensions of the soundstage (width, depth and height), but also to the ability to fully flesh out the image of any single instrument (or sound source), to make it believable enough to convince you that you could get up and walk in a circle around it. Not to mention that the quest for an absolute sound in reproduction implies complete tonal accuracy.
Now, before the shrill among you start to sharpen up your claws on me, think over the information above. Have you ever heard a system that could create an absolute sound (with appropriate source material)? I never have. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Not necessarily. Are we--as engineers, artists, producers, etc.--required to create music that, when reproduced on an audiophile system, pursues the definition of absolute sound? Nope. Could we all probably benefit in some way from owning a system that can produce absolute sound? Speaking for myself, I would say YES!!!
To repeat something I have said earlier in this forum, are many audiophiles 'lost in the woods'? Probably. Are all of them? No way. Are there talented designers who can continue to hone their craft and produce gear that benefits us all because they derive income from the audiophile world? As far as I can tell, yes. I'm guessing people like Ed Meitner, Tim de Paravincini and Hutch (at Manley) are all examples.
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#510861 - 03/23/04 04:03 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Nathan_Eldred
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Originally posted by mchimes:
[QUOTE]I'm not sure what kind of speakers he has, but I know they are powered, he doesn't have a stand alone amp. I think the speakers are in the $4000 range (not super expensive).
If that's true, don't even begin to worry about it. $4000 powered speakers for a "snobby" audiophile? Heh.
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#510862 - 03/25/04 01:19 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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yo yo mixi mix
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"Dealer retorts "Ah yes, our clients have complained that the EAR valve mono-blocks sound too clinical"..."
He's joking, right?
Perhaps he should spend some time with "pro audio" power amps....
I'll confess I've never met a $500 power cord that meant much but Tim's EAR amps are superb...
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#510863 - 03/25/04 02:42 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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cram
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Therefore, imaging refers to not only all 3 dimensions of the soundstage (width, depth and height), but also to the ability to fully flesh out the image of any single instrument (or sound source), to make it believable enough to convince you that you could get up and walk in a circle around it. Not to mention that the quest for an absolute sound in reproduction implies complete tonal accuracy. 
_________________________
Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
non fui, fui, non sum, non curo
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#510864 - 03/25/04 03:03 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by cram: Therefore, imaging refers to not only all 3 dimensions of the soundstage (width, depth and height), but also to the ability to fully flesh out the image of any single instrument (or sound source), to make it believable enough to convince you that you could get up and walk in a circle around it. Not to mention that the quest for an absolute sound in reproduction implies complete tonal accuracy.
It doesn't seem to be something you can just twiddle a knob and achieve.
:p
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#510865 - 03/25/04 03:12 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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cram
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It doesn't seem to be something you can just twiddle a knob and achieve.
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Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
non fui, fui, non sum, non curo
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#510866 - 03/25/04 03:22 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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Thermionic
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Originally posted by yo yo mixi mix:
"Dealer retorts "Ah yes, our clients have complained that the EAR valve mono-blocks sound too clinical"..."
He's joking, right?
Perhaps he should spend some time with "pro audio" power amps....
I'll confess I've never met a $500 power cord that meant much but Tim's EAR amps are superb...
How often do you hear someone claim a transformer-coupled valve amp sounds clinical? I have read reviews that claim Audio Research amps to be "clinical"; what do A/Research and Tim de P have in common? They both design gear correctly.
As I've said before, I think selling anything into the hi-fi market is a lottery, literally. I've heard so many "placebo" stories it's unreal, ie: Review states unit A doesn't sound right, and informs oem. Oem sends over courier for unit. Oem waits a few days and then dispatches an identical model, but tells reviewer "Cap A in the feedback loop has been changed". Reviewer writes glowing review for identical unit stating that the removal of cap A made all the difference.
HTF can any hi-fi reviewer comment unless in a seriously well-treated room? Room-acoustic / humidity / temp are going to swamp any perceivable difference between high-end products (presuming they are well-designed products with a generally flat response / reasonable thd). How anyone can hear the difference between different cabling in a non-treated living-room is utterly beyond my comprehension, I'd even go as far as to say that the differences reported were probably due to listening to the units at different times of the day, ie humidity / temp.
What really bugs me about the hi-fi brigade is the way they present subjectivity as scientific fact, read any hi-fi publication to see what I mean (not that I'd wish that kind of hardship on anyone...). The "letters" pages are the most hysterical: "What preamp should I partner with pwr-amp Z?", "Well, everyone knows that your preamp has a bright top with a laid-back mid, therefore you need pwr-amp Y because it has an upfront mid and laid back top, this is fact you know...".
If any of these morons had even a junior school knowledge of electronics they would be able to explain many of the artefacts they perceive, i.e better psrr + superior psu regulation = more top-end sparkle + cleaner bass. If one unit has "more powerful bass" maybe that's because it has 100,00mfd of reservoir caps rather than the other amp which only has 20,000mfd? (Excuse the bleeding obvious analogy, it's just to make a point).
Don't think that I'm trying to over-simplify the concept of subjective appraisal, there are obviously many factors that would take considerable research to explain therefore we all resort to subjective appraisal sometimes, I just think that in the case of hi-fi many industry personnel abuse the privelege...
Justin
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#510867 - 03/25/04 04:41 PM
Re: Audiophiles & Control Rooms
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maarvold
Senior Member
Registered: 08/26/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Simi Valley,CA,UNITED STATES
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Where is the height knob located?
Frankly, this comment irritated me. It's not exactly mean-spirited, but it IS headed in that direction. I'd like to know about any reading/experiments/real-world experience you can convey about the height aspect of stereo reproduction. At the very least, I hope you know what the LEDR test is. As Senior Technical Support for a well-known manufacturer, it seems like [the quest for and dissemination of] knowledge would be a most valuable asset.
Michael Aarvold
P.S., If stereo can only image in the horizontal plane, why can binaural recordings (with headphones) be so, so convincing in 3 dimensions? Maybe some sort of comb filter/phasing between the panner and 'the depth knob'? Or does depth also not exist?
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