#510817 - 03/21/04 11:43 PM
DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Jono
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Registered: 03/21/04
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Hi,Can anyone suggest a console fitting my criteria at a price to fit my new studio. I have filtered down to; Sony DMX R 100 - Yamaha DM 2000 - Amek BIG- Soundcraft GHOST, but I have not used any of these myself and can not make a comparison. (I could stretch to $13000 for a console). I record mostly acoustic music & vocals and some midi on keyboard. Occassionally radio/tv commercials. Currently on Cubase SX /RME card/lightpipe to Adat HD24/ Delta 1010 converter/ DBX 386 pre/Powercore. I would like total recall but need very good sonic quality (Pre's/Converters/Eq's/ Dynamics etc).24 channels is probably enough. The analogue / digital argument has arisen.
Thanks for any help.
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#510818 - 03/22/04 01:07 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
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In my opinion, get an analog console.
Digital consoles are a few things combined.... A/D, mic pre, effects, D/A. Maybe more. So what happens when you want to upgrade any one of these things?
Also, digital consoles tie together the input and output formats, which I found to be quite inconvenient.
I like seperates. I have seperate converters, mic pres, effects, .... I don't actually have a console anymore, but if I did, it would be analog. I've owned both, and recently donated my Tascam TM-D4000 to the local symphony hall.
Here's what I have learned... if anything... since the introduction of computers to audio. The computer-based stuff gets outdated very quickly. Anyone want an 1176? Anyone want an FB-01?
No doubt in some facilities, a digital console enhances the work flow. But I did not find that to be the case in my little room.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#510819 - 03/22/04 08:10 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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gm
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I agree, sort of. I'd say get the best possible analog gear that you can afford. It holds it's value much longer than the various digital components (consoles, converters, DAW's & etc)
I don't know which modern analog consoles represent the best value. Better to go on what you like working with.
George
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#510820 - 03/22/04 11:34 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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errol
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Originally posted by gm:
I agree, sort of. I'd say get the best possible analog gear that you can afford. It holds it's value much longer than the various digital components (consoles, converters, DAW's & etc)
I don't know which modern analog consoles represent the best value. Better to go on what you like working with.
George
Did you ever worked with it?
And ofcourse, did you like it?
Thanx in advance.
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cut-n-clear Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
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#510821 - 03/22/04 11:57 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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System 8
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I think you have to work with what you like. However with that being said, most people use outboard mic pre’s, and eq a lot, not to mention plug in eq’s, and other effects. With this being the case, the advantage of controlling your DAW with a digital mixer, and all it’s effects, to me make a digital mixer a better value.
In talking about digital equipment getting outdated faster, look at what Yamaha did. They updated the software for their digital mixers adding more features and more plug in effects. Can’t do that with any analog gear.
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#510822 - 03/22/04 12:01 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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gm
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Originally posted by errol: Originally posted by gm:
I agree, sort of. I'd say get the best possible analog gear that you can afford. It holds it's value much longer than the various digital components (consoles, converters, DAW's & etc)
I don't know which modern analog consoles represent the best value. Better to go on what you like working with.
George
Did you ever worked with it?
And of course, did you like it?
But it is expensive, and is not for everyone. And you've got to like digital.
George
p.s. One of the considerations at the G.O.O. was interoperability with Nuendo. They have a pretty big Nuendo system running on a Racksaver DAW64 with RME MADI interface cards. After some problems with another machine & a sync card that seems to be working pretty well.
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#510823 - 03/22/04 01:36 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Jono
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Thank you all for your input it is very helpful. I have the option to buy a Euphonix CS-2000 .....
( http://syeco.com/mailer/Euphonix-Console.jpg )
listed as 48 I/O'S ....V 2.6 software...like new condition ... but I would not be able to physically see it/test it before it was shipped to me from CA to OH and that scares me a little as again I have not used one of these before. Does anyone have a comment about this console; I can not find anything on the Euphonix web site about it (specs. /tech details)but an independent Euphonix tech. told me that these were good and similar to a CS-3000 less a few upgrades,(a little sketchy )and I understand it is has total recall. What are your thoughts on using control surfaces for Cubase SX / Nuendo, what's best ?
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#510824 - 03/22/04 01:54 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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System 8
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Steinberg stated they will have the Mackie Expander working with their DAW’s in the next couple of months. Tascam just came out with a 24 channel controller which looks great. The only thing it is missing is the led track display that the Mackie has. http://tascam.com/product_info.php?pid=342
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#510825 - 03/22/04 03:50 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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errol
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Originally posted by gm: Originally posted by errol: Originally posted by gm:
I agree, sort of. I'd say get the best possible analog gear that you can afford. It holds it's value much longer than the various digital components (consoles, converters, DAW's & etc)
I don't know which modern analog consoles represent the best value. Better to go on what you like working with.
George
Did you ever worked with it?
And of course, did you like it?
But it is expensive, and is not for everyone. And you've got to like digital.
George
p.s. One of the considerations at the G.O.O. was interoperability with Nuendo. They have a pretty big Nuendo system running on a Racksaver DAW64 with RME MADI interface cards. After some problems with another machine & a sync card that seems to be working pretty well.
I was thinking of the analog euphonix.
I still don't like to mix only in a digital domain. I tried it with protools but it didn't gave me the satisfaction I have know with an old Tascam M3500.
The only big problem is that I have to finish a mix before I can go to another one.
The keyword is totall recall.
A second hand euphonix could be the solution for me in the future.
But I was wondering what your experiences are with the analog consoles from Euphonix.
Thanx in advance.
_________________________
cut-n-clear Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
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#510826 - 03/22/04 04:10 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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miroslav
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Originally posted by errol:
I still don't like to mix only in a digital domain. I tried it with protools but it didn't gave me the satisfaction I have know with an old Tascam M3500. 
I have...and love...my M3500! 
My Baby
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#510827 - 03/22/04 05:13 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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jdunn
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Registered: 05/19/02
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FWIW, I heard the Euphonix analog consoles are full of T-Fets, and those don't sound especially great. I heard the digital System 5 sounds really good though. The compressor is supposed to be excellent.
I have a Sony DMX, and it's not bad. As someone else here has said previously, the eq and comps aren't great, but the summing is okay and it doesn't color your tracks much. A lot of analog consoles don't have great eq either, and don't even have compressors. There's always plug-ins.
An important consideration is the formats you plan on working with. If you want to use a Genex multitrack DSD recorder or something like that, analog is the logical choice. The Sony goes up to 96 khz. Unless you want to work at 192khz, a DMX wouldn't be a bad choice probably.
I think 192 khz is overkill personally. For multitrack, kind of ridiculous. These new audio formats (SACD/DVD-A) aren't exactly taking over the world. I think at this point we've probably reached the point where a really good sounding 96 khz converter and console should be useful for a while, not just a year or two.
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#510828 - 03/23/04 12:49 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Bill Mueller
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Registered: 06/22/03
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In my opinion the DM2000 makes a lot of sense these days.
I think we should look at the console/recorder as a single system. If you are recording to a digital format like Pro Tools, you are really working in the digital domain. It is just a matter of where you’re analog to digital and digital to analog converters exists, in the console or the recorder. If you have a Studer A80 then it is a fundamentally different question.
In a digital console like the DM the AtoD exists after the line amp insert. Therefore if I want to use an 1176 or GML EQ I can plug it in the insert. If I want a tube preamp (I do and I have 4 channels) then I do the same thing. If not, then I have 24 nice preamps connected to one hell of a mixing console.
If I want to change the input/output formats, I select an my8 or my16 card that fits my recorder of choice. I happen to use TDIF but I could use AES, or lightpipe just as well. The DM can control Pro Tools or Nuendo directly. With an analog console the functionality of Pro Tools or Nuendo is locked inside of the computer and the engineer is left having to deal with the console as a separate entity.
The DM does 24bit/96k with all channels lit. I don’t think that format will be orphaned in the next two years. If it is I may loose some of my investment, but I think I will make most of the console investment back by this summer, so no biggie. This IS different however if the console costs more than three years salary. The DM is bargain basement by those standards.
It is true that Yamaha is releasing new features for the DM. I love it. That did happen in a way with our SSL consoles as the automation system was improved, however anybody who did a Total Recall setup will tell you, it ain’t EXACTLY the same every time. The DM recall is EXACT.
The idea that analog gear lasts forever is false. Anything with moving parts will wear out. The pots get noisy and have to be replaced. New pots don’t sound the same or have a different taper and the box sounds different. “Vintage” analog consoles can be a nightmare. Neotek once had to replace over 100,000 pots.
I could not get a 96 input analog console in my control room. I would have to build the walls around it. Don’t even think about getting it out when the lease expires.
I do surround mixing. The DM has surround reverbs, multi band limiting and monitoring. Just those facilities would equal the cost of the DM if I had to ADD them to an analog console.
None if this negates the apparent fact that high end analog gear holds its value much longer than digital gear. No contest. However, I buy gear to use not to resell. If I had a GML compressor you could not tear it from my cold dead fingers, much less buy it from me, so what’s the point?
Best Regards,
Bill
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#510829 - 03/23/04 02:54 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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ustah
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Hi Bill what do you use as a recorder,Do you use PT or....!?also Does DM comes with meter bridge or do you have to buy that seperately!.
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#510830 - 03/23/04 10:09 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Bill Mueller
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Registered: 06/22/03
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Ustah,
I use an MX2424, Pro Tools and Sonar 3 all on different interfaces for different jobs. The DM comes with a meter bridge. You need to equip it with the my8 or my16 interfaces. You can also buy wood side panels but mine is in an Argosy console so I didn't do that.
Best Regards,
Bill
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#510831 - 03/23/04 10:36 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Snake Cained
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There have been long running rumours of an Anlaog desk made by a British company, that can also be a DAW control surface. This product should be around this year??? and from what I've heard could be a world beater under $10,000. If anyone knows more, please share.
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#510832 - 03/23/04 01:18 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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System 8
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Good points were made on this topic. Most of us record in digital.
Now to jump on me, if you like your analog board, please keep using it. I am sure you have a great workflow, and you make amazing recording. I am just trying to understand those who use analog equipment prior and after going into digital, how much of a issue it is the “sound” to sum in analog. I am not talking about how your system work flow works great with it, or with your setup you have a fantastic sound. SSL digital mixers are a lot cheaper than their analog mixers these days, and of course you have a lot more capabilities on the digital mixers.
When I talked to George at the AES he mentioned to me about getting a sound you want with your instrument or vocalist, with your mic, and pre. The great thing about George’s eq, is that it will not colorized the sound, but will keep the true sound of your original recording while still allowing you to control the eq. He made a great point. Why do you want to use so much gear to colorized your signal and take away from your great original sound? Yes it is true some compressors and eq (as well as mic pre’s) will add their color to it, which you may want. But once that’s done to your liking, for me, I just would not want to run it through more color and lose some quality on another digital to analog conversion, and going back to digital again. We should be able to get the softer sound we want through our hardware outboard gear, and some convulsion plug ins, no? What am I missing here?
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#510833 - 03/23/04 02:38 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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errol
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Registered: 05/25/01
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Originally posted by miroslav: Originally posted by errol:
I still don't like to mix only in a digital domain. I tried it with protools but it didn't gave me the satisfaction I have know with an old Tascam M3500.
I have...and love...my M3500!
My Baby
_________________________
cut-n-clear Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
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#510834 - 03/24/04 07:14 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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adebar
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Registered: 07/17/01
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A friend of mine uses 2 cascades Amek BCIII for mixing. He´s doing only classical recordings and doesn´t need a lot of EQing or dynamics. This desk which was made for Broadcast applications sounds maybe better than the typical music production consoles (for example Amek Big) because of the simplier construcion (less parts in the signal chain).
There are sometimes BCIII on ebay. Or if you want a newer board of a similar approach there is still the Amek BB100.
If you can afford the Sonosax SX-T series is available up to 48 channels. http://www.sonosax.ch/index2.html
No overloaded channel strips but a clean and good sounding signal path.
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#510835 - 03/27/04 01:58 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Bugsy34
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Registered: 09/25/03
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shipped to me from CA to OH
where at in Oh? maybe I can help you out a little.
Tim
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#510836 - 03/28/04 07:21 AM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Jono
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Registered: 03/21/04
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Hi Bugsy34, I'm in the Cleveland area. I will be off the 'net' for the next 12 days or so but I'll check for posts later today.
Thanks
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#510837 - 03/28/04 12:38 PM
Re: DIGITAL OR ANALOGUE CONSOLE
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Bugsy34
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Jono,
Check your Email 
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