#510447 - 03/15/04 04:32 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Pio2001
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Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 63
Loc: Lyon,AK,FRANCE
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This is pure theory. It assumes that CDRs are never exposed to more than 20 °C. I live in France, and this is impossible. This summer, the temperature was 36 °C in my flat for one month. Reading the CDR can heat it too. And these numbers are base on accelerated aging tests, not real life tests.
The user reports, such as http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/3247 , or http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=17718& shows that the number of CDRs dead with no physical damage after two or three years is overwhelming, compared the number of pressed CDs dead after the same time. The proportion may be around 1/3 for CDRs and 1/1000 for pressed CDs.
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#510448 - 03/15/04 06:00 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Bob Olhsson
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Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Nashville,TN, USA
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Those of us who work with old analog tapes know that those "aging tests" are a cruel joke whose main purpose has always been to cover middle-management's asses within large organizations. The truth has always been that complex man-made materials always have a very unpredictable lifespan due to chemical changes over time that result in unexpected components becoming reactive with each other and with the storage environment.
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#510449 - 03/15/04 11:05 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Tedly Nightshade
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
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So, make a bunch of them, and stash them in different places.
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#510450 - 03/16/04 07:32 AM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Pio2001
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Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 63
Loc: Lyon,AK,FRANCE
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That's what I did. The first ones died after two years, the other ones after three years.
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#510451 - 03/16/04 11:51 AM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Tedly Nightshade
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Registered: 01/03/02
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Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by Pio2001:
That's what I did. The first ones died after two years, the other ones after three years.
what make of CD-Rs? I've been using these Taiyo Yudens hoping they are really better made and will last longer...
I've been told by a historical archivist that the thing to do is dub everything every 10 years, but maybe it better be more like every 2 years?!
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#510452 - 03/16/04 12:10 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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adebar
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Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 709
Loc: Wiesbaden, GERMANY
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I´ve CD-Rs in my car for over 4 years with no problems.
So I guess (but don´t know) 10 yrears shouldn´t be a problem if the CD-R is on a good place.
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#510453 - 03/16/04 02:46 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Pio2001
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Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 63
Loc: Lyon,AK,FRANCE
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Here's a direct link to the list of all my CDRs with error scans. Those that died, those that live.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=17718&view=findpost&p=175435
Copying 100 CDs, whith secure mode slow extraction, on a consumer burner, with offset correction, every two years is a bit annoying.
For secure storage of digital data, I'd prefer a professional solution : fast daily backups of all the data online, on DDS tapes, for example.
Since I'm not a professional, I'm just compressing all my music to MusePack quality 5 (it is not exactly identical to the original CDs, but most of the time it sounds the same), store it in my computer hard drive, and I backup about once a month the hard drive content on an external hard drive, that is unplugged from the computer the rest of the time.
The ideal solution would be to share backups with a friend : I would keep a copy of his backups and he would keep a copy of mine.
External hard drives are much more convenient than CDRs for data storage.
The key point here is that I use my computer as a jukebox, so the music is already on the hard drive anyway. It is in the room next the hifi, to avoid noise, and 5 meters SPDIF cables run from one room to the other 
Of course, now that hard drives are bigger, you can easily consider backuping CDs in lossless format, or even wav files.
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#510454 - 03/16/04 04:50 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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psalad
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Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 136
Loc: Redwood City, CA
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Why not put the most important backups in a cool, dry place... maybe one of those small "wine cellar" type of refrigerators? If heat is the problem, this might work... though you'd have to control the humidity, any ideas on this?
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#510455 - 03/16/04 06:26 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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timobrien
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 279
Loc: Southeast Florida
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"You don't have a backup until you have three of them in three different places."
-Manta chanted by my first IT Dept boss.
I have CD-Rs burned in the very earliest days of the $3000 1x burners (as I remember the disks were $35 each back then and it took 90minutes to burn no matter if they were full, bad or had 10k on them).... they've got to be over 10 years old. No problems with them at all.
Here's a fun page of the "old days" of CD-R's from Roxio:
http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/historycdr.html
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#510456 - 03/18/04 10:53 AM
Re: CD-R longevity
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skiboy
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Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 37
Loc: The Pole
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That was a fun read, timobrian, thanx.
We have been archiving our clients' crucial session data on CDROMs since 1994. We store the 300+ disk set in a dark
, cool room in the basement.
We started with PinnacleMicro X2speed recorder and CD-Rs but have been using TDK media mostly.
I'm glad to report that none of our archive disks died because of old age, all are readable and uncorrupted.
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#510457 - 03/18/04 01:36 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Jan Folkson
Senior Member
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 262
Loc: NYC
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Originally posted by timobrien:
"You don't have a backup until you have three of them in three different places."
-Manta chanted by my first IT Dept boss.
_________________________
- Jan Folkson http://www.janfolkson.com "How do you know when it's music and not just a bunch of noise" - Dennis the Menace
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#510458 - 03/18/04 02:44 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Brad Blackwood_dup1
Senior Member
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 173
Loc: Memphis - the home of rock-n-r...
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I have 10+ year old CDRs that still have vanishingly low error rates. In fact, not one of my old ones is unreadable in any player I have here...
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#510459 - 03/18/04 03:46 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Tedly Nightshade
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
I have 10+ year old CDRs that still have vanishingly low error rates. In fact, not one of my old ones is unreadable in any player I have here...
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#510460 - 03/18/04 04:34 PM
Re: CD-R longevity
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Brad Blackwood_dup1
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Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 173
Loc: Memphis - the home of rock-n-r...
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Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
Stored any special way? Climate control? Freeze and thaw any?
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