#510357 - 03/15/04 05:34 AM
How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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halljams
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Deciding on mikes, adding EQ, comp etc, setting up OH's.
All in all, on average including tweaking time after you have the bass etc up, how long do you spend on the kit for an average pop or rock band?
Just curious. I'm about 2.5 hrs. I just can't get it right in less time.
Often it's more cause people have shitty kits or don't know how to tune the drums etc etc, i just always feel kinda bad to take up so much time with it but i am always happy i did in the end.
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#510358 - 03/15/04 10:19 AM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Dave Martin
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I must be doing something wrong - I use the same mics and signal chains until I get tired of them, and I have a house kit. Mics are set up, the drums are set up. All I have to do is patch it together.
If I haven't patched things previously, I do that while the drummer gets his cymbals and such set up. it takes less than 10 minutes to get sounds, since we're only making minor adjustments to what's already there.
I'l try to take more time on the next session...
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#510359 - 03/15/04 12:09 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Bob Olhsson
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Dave, you aren't recording average pop or rock bands!
2.5 hours is really fast in my experience. I've frequently seen people spend 8 hours trying to make everybody in the band plus a producer happy.
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#510360 - 03/15/04 12:16 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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gm
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Sometimes 10 minutes (like last Wednesday), sometimes three days (Jeff Porcaro for "The Seventh One").
They both sound great.
So, it depends...
George
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#510361 - 03/15/04 01:05 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Robocop
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hey george,
just curious, what made it take 3 days with Porcaro [sp corrected. ed.]?
robo
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#510362 - 03/15/04 01:16 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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where02190
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For your typical 4-6 piece rock/pop kit, once it's set up, it takes me about 20-30 minutes tops to get sounds and dial in hp mixes, unless the kit is poorly tuned.
Sorry, but I don't get why it would take hours or days. We have our fav mic choices, know what part of the room the drums sound best in, a bit of position tweaking, checking pre levels, and you're rollin'. About 505 of the time the basic kit is our house kit, a very nice 60's yamaha set, and drummers augment with their cymbals, hats, snare, kick pedal. We keep stnads and cables wired for a 4-5 piece config, but even so, what does it take, 10 minutes to wire it up from scratch?
If it takes me more than 20-30 minutes, it's because the drummers kit is not properly tuned and tweaked. I'll politely suggest he let me take care of it, whcih I am (not to pat myself on the back but what the key) very good at. I stress to drummers before sessions if they are using their own kit to put fresh heads on a few days before, check all hardware for squakes, jingles, rattles, etc., and I try to actually go hear the kit if it's feasable, to intercept any issues before they get into the studio.
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#510363 - 03/15/04 01:39 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Lee Flier
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Sure, if you have a good house kit, and a miking "formula" that you know you can count on, it doesn't take long. My kit is always ready to go and it usually takes half an hour or less to mic it up with my usual fare and get a very satisfactory drum sound. That's my "go-to" setup that I know will work for the typical client on a tight budget.
However it would be a dull world if all records were made with one kit in one room with one set of mics. If I or the artist I'm recording is after some particular sound for a particular song, that can get time consuming. Hitting on the right combination of drums/cymbals/heads/tuning/kit placement in the room/mic selection/mic placement/pres/etc. can be like the quest for the holy grail. It can take a LONG time, and that's even assuming there are no problems with the drum kit.
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#510364 - 03/15/04 02:11 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Average time for me is anywhere from an hour to three hours, although I've spent considerably longer. It absolutely depends on the kit and what we're going for. And no, I don't have a house kit, although I've considered getting one just to have one around here at all times. But I doubt I'd want to use it very often - I'd rather have the drummer use their own kit. But for those times (and they're more frequent than I'd like to think about) where people, despite my advance warnings about the importance of new heads, proper setup and tuning, show up with utter crap, having an option available would probably be a good idea.
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#510365 - 03/15/04 03:00 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Uh Clem
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New drummer, new kit - half a day average - maybe. I spent about 3 hours one day with a drummer just on the snare 
If I really want to drag things out, I'll call in reinforcements - Lee maybe - and make an event out of it 
I always advise the band NOT to show up for this - they'll hate it.
And - I do this 1st, before anything else. If possible the day before the session because I don't want the drummer burn't out from it.
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#510366 - 03/15/04 03:29 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by Uh Clem:
I always advise the band NOT to show up for this - they'll hate it.
And - I do this 1st, before anything else. If possible the day before the session because I don't want the drummer burn't out from it.
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#510367 - 03/15/04 03:49 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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malice
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Originally posted by Robocop:
hey george,
just curious, what made it take 3 days with pocaro?
robo
Ditto on What Gearge said, I like to take a day and record something to listen to the day after. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time on your hands ...
malice
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#510368 - 03/15/04 05:37 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Dot
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I always allot four hours for drums. That's usually about where it falls.
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#510369 - 03/15/04 05:54 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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halljams
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What about EQ?
Do you use lots of it before tracking if needed or do you wait?
Same with compression.
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#510370 - 03/15/04 06:25 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Henchman
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As alot of todays engineers would put it
"what's a drumkit. Isn't that what the drumprogrammers for".
Seriously though. Anywhere from 1/2 an hour to an hour.
This doesn't inlcude the drummer having to replace all his drumskins like I told him before he showed up. Hoping to get by with the usual, 'I've only used these once". Yeah, in an all day rehearsel banging the fuck out of them.
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#510371 - 03/15/04 06:25 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Nathan_Eldred
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It depends on whether the kit is good or not. We have a house kit that's pretty much ready to go, in that case it's about an hour. If the drummer 'insists' on using his or her kit due to the fact that they think it's 'their tone' or won't rent the house kit, then it has been known to go up to 2.5 hours with tweaking and generally polishing the turd.
Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
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#510372 - 03/15/04 08:11 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Dave Martin
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I admire those of you who can take half a day or a day (or even an hour) to get drums sounds, but most of the sessions I do here (and that I play on at other studios) or those where there's a full rhythm section starting at 10:00, and we have to do 5 or 6 songs before the session ends at 1:00. You really can't take an hour to get drums sounds for a session that only lasts 3 hours...
The interesting question for me is whether I could take that much more time if I were charging an hourly or daily rate rather rather than a turn key project rate... or if y'all would take that much time if you were charging a (painfully low) turnkey rate rather than an hourly.
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#510373 - 03/15/04 08:31 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Lee Flier
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Interesting question Dave, and once again, for me the answer is "it depends." I very rarely do anything for a turnkey rate, but I do often get people who have to get x number of songs recorded in x number of hours because that's all their budget will allow. In that case, I usually go with my aforementioned "go to" setup - use my house kit in most cases, with a mic setup that's tried and true. If the client wants me to jerk around with their crappy drum kit or anything like that, they understand up front that I'm charging by the hour and they'll have to pay extra for that, in which case the project is just not going to get done on budget. So that usually makes them opt for the house kit in that situation.
On the other hand... if I like the artist and think their material would really benefit from a different drum sound, and/or I'm just in a mood to experiment, I have been known to throw in up to a few hours of "setup time" for free. Hey, I've gotta have my fun, too.
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#510374 - 03/15/04 09:30 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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where02190
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If you're like Lee, and feel like experimenting at no cost to the artist, thats one thing, but IMHO if a professional engineer in a familiar studio can't get a decent drum sound in an hour with his/her typical choice of mics on a decent sounding kit, they are either exploiting the client or need to get a clue. how many different mics do you realy need to try on a kick to get a decent sound? You know how mic/pre a, b, and c sound and you like them. If by the time you're on c it sitll doesn't sound good, don't you think you need to look elsewhere other than the mic or preamp?
If the artist is so green that their kit comes into the studio sounding bad, well too bad for them, hey we got a great sounding house kit that sounds good in 10 minutes, you can use that or we'll take however long it takes on your time to get your crappy sounding drums to sound good. However I make it very clear what to do to prepare for a session for each instrument, and generally I've also seen the band either at a lvie show or a rehearsal, so I know what I'm up against.
I'm certainly not one to cut corners, and I'm totally of the method of getting it right going in, but I just don't see how it can take several hours to get good drum sounds. Perhaps it's because I am also a drummer, and spent several years a a touring drum tech as well that gives me more insite as what to do to get the drums sounding good if they come in sounding poorly?
Saturday I had a 10am tracking session, the drummer using his own kit. I never saw the kit before, nor did I hear it. He was loaded in, set-up, tuned(by yours truly), wired and we were tracking him, electric bass(who had been here before and was familiar with our DI/mic via '62 B-15 method) electric gtr and scratch vocal before noon. we tracked basics for 9 tunes, each with at least 3 takes by 8:30pm, including a 1 hour lunch break. the tracks sound great, and the artist is very happy so far.
FYI, I never eq anything going in. IHO it's about choosing the right instrument, putting it in the right room, and micing it with the right mics, positioning properly, and preamp choice. I'll sometimes use a bit of compession on the way in, a very little bit.
Enlighten me, if you know the room, have your choice of mics/pre, and a decent sounding kit, how can it take so long? What are you doing all that time?
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#510375 - 03/15/04 09:46 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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cerumen
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Originally posted by where02190:
If you're like Lee, and feel like experimenting at no cost to the artist, thats one thing, but IMHO if a professional engineer in a familiar studio can't get a decent drum sound in an hour with his/her typical choice of mics on a decent sounding kit, they are either exploiting the client or need to get a clue.
GM, maybe you should take some classes from this hotshot.
By the way, Toto's 'Seventh One' was my first Toto album.... always loved the sound of that album and band. Glad you had a hand in it!
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#510376 - 03/15/04 10:01 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Nathan_Eldred
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Originally posted by where02190:
Enlighten me, if you know the room, have your choice of mics/pre, and a decent sounding kit, how can it take so long? What are you doing all that time?
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#510377 - 03/15/04 10:14 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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halljams
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Originally posted by where02190:
If you're like Lee, and feel like experimenting at no cost to the artist, thats one thing, but IMHO if a professional engineer in a familiar studio can't get a decent drum sound in an hour with his/her typical choice of mics on a decent sounding kit, they are either exploiting the client or need to get a clue. how many different mics do you realy need to try on a kick to get a decent sound? You know how mic/pre a, b, and c sound and you like them. If by the time you're on c it sitll doesn't sound good, don't you think you need to look elsewhere other than the mic or preamp?
If the artist is so green that their kit comes into the studio sounding bad, well too bad for them, hey we got a great sounding house kit that sounds good in 10 minutes, you can use that or we'll take however long it takes on your time to get your crappy sounding drums to sound good. However I make it very clear what to do to prepare for a session for each instrument, and generally I've also seen the band either at a lvie show or a rehearsal, so I know what I'm up against.
I'm certainly not one to cut corners, and I'm totally of the method of getting it right going in, but I just don't see how it can take several hours to get good drum sounds. Perhaps it's because I am also a drummer, and spent several years a a touring drum tech as well that gives me more insite as what to do to get the drums sounding good if they come in sounding poorly?
Saturday I had a 10am tracking session, the drummer using his own kit. I never saw the kit before, nor did I hear it. He was loaded in, set-up, tuned(by yours truly), wired and we were tracking him, electric bass(who had been here before and was familiar with our DI/mic via '62 B-15 method) electric gtr and scratch vocal before noon. we tracked basics for 9 tunes, each with at least 3 takes by 8:30pm, including a 1 hour lunch break. the tracks sound great, and the artist is very happy so far.
FYI, I never eq anything going in. IHO it's about choosing the right instrument, putting it in the right room, and micing it with the right mics, positioning properly, and preamp choice. I'll sometimes use a bit of compession on the way in, a very little bit.
Enlighten me, if you know the room, have your choice of mics/pre, and a decent sounding kit, how can it take so long? What are you doing all that time?
I'd like to hear some mp3's of these drums you did Saturday if you have them handy.
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#510378 - 03/15/04 10:44 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Ruairi O'Flaherty
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Originally posted by where02190:
[QB
Enlighten me, if you know the room, have your choice of mics/pre, and a decent sounding kit, how can it take so long? What are you doing all that time?[/QB]
I must remember to give the next "green" musician through my door the old "too bad" routine. Needless to say disagree with the one size fits all approach,
cheers,
Ruairi
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#510379 - 03/15/04 10:46 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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henryrobinett
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Doesn't it also depend upon what kind of music you're doing and the familiarity with the musicians, drummers sound, style, your own mics and pres, room? I work with a lot of the same musicians. All truly great players. The drummer I mainly record and I go way, way, way back. I know all of his kits. It takes me 30 minutes. I too am confused as far as why i takes so long, but I don't do pop music by and large. I figure there must be some good reason it has to take so long. It's never taken me so long. I get pretty decent tracks, but I'm also using really good mics and pres, using great musicians who really know how to hit a drum. And know just a little bit, as an engineer too; maybe just enough to be dangerous.
Previously I was in several groups and studios where it took forever to get the drum sound. This fact alone intimidated me away from recording for awhile. "What's so dang complicated?" I figured something was going on I didn't know. Even when I was producing and co-producing it was a mystery to me. Rattles, eq, tone, placement. But I've rarely had issues like that. Inexperience? I'm sure. Luck? Perhaps. Just don't know any better? Yeah, maybe.
But if I were getting the big bucks and my career and the career of my multi-million $ clients depended upon me getting just the right drum sound, well maybe I'd have a different perspective. But I'm also too much into playing, and recording music to get too side tracked into all the little, tiny minutia of the dumb shit. Probably I don't have the patience to ever be a great engineer.
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#510380 - 03/15/04 10:52 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by where02190:
If you're like Lee, and feel like experimenting at no cost to the artist, thats one thing, but IMHO if a professional engineer in a familiar studio can't get a decent drum sound in an hour with his/her typical choice of mics on a decent sounding kit, they are either exploiting the client or need to get a clue. how many different mics do you realy need to try on a kick to get a decent sound?
I'm certainly not one to cut corners, and I'm totally of the method of getting it right going in, but I just don't see how it can take several hours to get good drum sounds. Perhaps it's because I am also a drummer, and spent several years a a touring drum tech as well that gives me more insite as what to do to get the drums sounding good if they come in sounding poorly?
In short, I could think of several zillion ways to tweak drums and drum sounds that could end up taking a lot of time, and have. Even if you think you know your room, kit, mics, and pres quite well, there are always things that can surprise you if you take the time to find them out. These can be the things that comprise the difference between "decent" and "sublime." But certainly not everybody has the budget to do that, so it helps to have a setup that you know will work with a minimum of fuss.
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#510381 - 03/15/04 11:48 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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halljams
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I just spend time on it till it's right. It's either right or it ain't.
Maby we all have different versions of that.
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#510382 - 03/15/04 11:54 PM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Tedly Nightshade
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I'm one who messes with the drums for a while- sometimes quite a while. But not if it's magically just right! That does happen.
I was just rehearsing and we went from a couple jazzy tunes that took maybe 5s minutes to set up the kit and tweak it from where it was, to where it needed to be- then a different tune, and man that snare sound was NOT right. I felt like I was killing the song, none too softly. Swapped the snares out, and about lost it trying to get to the right place with the wrong tuning- then got the right idea and pulled out the sound more or less promptly. Needed a different snare hand stick too- then it was right!
With more experience and a couple different snare drums on hand to pull out as needed, this wouldn't take as long. Trying to get there, and trying to get ahold of the other necessary drums...
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#510383 - 03/16/04 12:06 AM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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sadworld
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takes me from the time the drummer gets there and starts setting up his kit (i can be doing some things while he's setting up) at least 2 hours but not more than four. i mic everything seperately and do some premixes sometimes and and a little compression on kick and snr.
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#510384 - 03/16/04 01:11 AM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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Matt.Hepworth
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One to two hours usually. Also, some songs call for some rearranging of the kit and/or retuning. So a larger project can often take between one and several hours to have down pat. I get to work with quite a few decently talented people - some that even tune their own kit well, but I never have recorded a world class drummer with a world class kit, that could make a big difference in end result and setup time.
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#510385 - 03/16/04 01:33 AM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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steveD
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what ever it takes. No 2 drummers are alike, no two songs are alike and I almost never get the same type of band in here 2x in a row.
Getting it OK takes 30 minutes to 1 hour. Getting it Great for a given band ffor a given song in a given style takes time.
If the band is on a budget I cut back on mics to save mix time and complexity.
I usually have the band setup the night before and do sound check. Then I can listen when they go and see if I want to tweak anything.
I would not ask band A to use Band B's setup. Everyband deserves what is best for them, not what is easiest for me.
Steve
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#510386 - 03/16/04 01:52 AM
Re: How much time do you spend miking a kit in the studio?
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DAS
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For me, when I'm blessed with a good drummer, who naturally has a good kit, about 15-20 minutes. After that I need the band to play so I can hear where the kit needs to go. Early in my career I spent an hour or more working on a kit and after the band played the drummer totally changed the way he played in order to fit the song....so of course so did I...need to change what sound I'd been working on for the last hour or so. For me the kit only sounds good in the context of the song. Other than that I'm just guessing. So I'll get it close in 20 minutes or so and then tweak while the band rehearses.
The most amazing getting sounds on drums I witnessed was when I assisted Al Schmidt recording Jeff Porcaro. He told Jeff to play, then pulled up the kick, quick eq, snare, quick eq, hat, etc. until it was all there. He waved a Jeff to play a fill and bang! He was done! He never listened to any single mic, execpt for the kick as it was the first one up. It took all of about 3-4 minutes and sounded terrific! Of course Al has said in an interview, if you can't get a good sound on a guy like Jeff, you have real problems. Still....3-4 minutes??
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DAS
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