#434238 - 03/29/00 03:55 PM
Vocal mixing path
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devin_dup3
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Registered: 02/18/01
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Loc: hudson,WV,UNITED STATES
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Hello .... I'm looking at a new signal chain for vocals. At present I've considered LA's and 1176's. I think I favor the Manely Leveling amp though. Before I move into the Manley though I was wondering about some other options ... like the older dbx 160 VU units for example. What have you and some of the other folks here liked for vocal mixing? At present I'm using a Quantum (multi-band compression - dynamic EQ) into a Summit DCL-200. This path is actually giving amazing results. I've been getting gigs directly related to the quality I'm getting at mix with this current set up. I'm looking for more leveling though and the Summit falls apart with heavy compression (-7dB or more). Choices? What do you reach for most often? Application is pop vocal.
Which do you favor, optical, VCA, tube, hybrid?
Devin DeVore
TSC http://www.trinitysoundcompany.com
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#434239 - 03/30/00 06:21 AM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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Mark Lemaire
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Registered: 03/21/00
Posts: 930
Loc: Emeryville, CA USA
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Devin-
Um...what mic(s) do you use for VX? I prefer Klaus modified Neumann U67, M269, SM69, etc.
I know I'm an oddball here, but given that the artist may take several passes (or more!!) to get the vocal they want, I often try NOT using compression at all! Pulling this off requires learning the song and "playing" the input level to the deck while the vocalist performs- anticipating the hot notes, raising the level for the quiet ones, etc. This avoids the closing down of the frequecy spectrum brought on by any extra stuff in the signal chain (especially most analog compressors), and preserving that beautiful Neumann sound. For insurance and more choices at mix, I'll often use both mics on the SM69 (double mono), compressing one and using the other as described above.
Another, more moderate approach is to "play" the mic pre as described, but then feed a compressor instead of direct to tape. The compressor has less work to do this way, can be set to less extreme levels for those "wild" vocalists that are all over the map in terms of volume.
The assumption that compression is an integral part of a recording chain, even for vocals, is one I feel should be questioned.
ML
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#434240 - 03/30/00 10:29 AM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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gm
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Registered: 02/10/00
Posts: 2184
Loc: Williamson County, TN, USA
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Devin,
I agree with Mark that you need a really good mic at the front-end of whatever chain you arrive at. I like large-diaphram mics for vocals (U-67, C-12, M-251 & etc) with the sole exception of Jennifer Warnes, who sounds just find on a B&K 4006.
I suppose you could say that I'll level vocals in one or two passes: first, when you take the live vocal, but sometimes again when you are trying to fit it into a mix.
Perhaps contrary to what Mark is suggesting, I, and most independent journeyman engineers, know so well that you've got to be ready to get a great vocal on the first take if necessary, although as Mark points out, we most-often refine this by hand as takes build up. Getting all of the gains right demands a thorough understanding of the performance of each box in your chain.
The Quantum is not the right compressor for taking vocals - extremely difficult to use given the best conditions - difficult to set up, extremely hostile when it comes to quick changes. Optimizing it for vocals might be possible but for it's basically-broken attack and release adjustments.
I like RMS-based detectors to arrive at a more neutral dynamic balance in a vocal. These include analog DBX's (but not the Quantum) and LA-2 & 3's. I don't use LA-2 & 3's much because they don't have much range, and the vocalists I work with often pull in excess of 20dB compression. Same goes for the Summit, I think.
Anyway, I use my own boxes, but if I were stranded without them, I'd start with a DBX160 and work overnight to replace the audio IC's with something good.
I suppose you could say I'd prefer VCA, because it's the sharpest-performing true-RMS topology.
George
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#434241 - 03/30/00 04:56 PM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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Kris
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
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Boy I sure would like to know specifics as to how to modify the dbx160. Is there some reference books or is it something that you could explain , or would I need a degree in Electrical Engineering?
kolp@nu.cs.fsu.edu
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#434242 - 03/30/00 05:07 PM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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devin_dup3
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Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 0
Loc: hudson,WV,UNITED STATES
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I've been using U87's and FET U47's. And yes ... riding gain unpon tracking. I was more interested in the mix side rather than the input side. Wondering more about the choice and uses of compression upon mix. I'd never use multi-band going to tape. And yes ... attack and released is non-working in the Quantum. Been just using the variable soft knee auto programs. A little hard to get around ... I have several presets I've made from scratch for vocal. Its cleaner than a BSS 901 and much more control. So after some dynamic EQ ... what's your most picked compressor for vocal? And do you still stick with VCA units on the mix side or go with Optical?
Thanks
Devin DeVore
TSC
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#434243 - 03/31/00 01:51 PM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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gm
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 02/10/00
Posts: 2184
Loc: Williamson County, TN, USA
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Devin,
Sorry to seem opportunistic (and also because I've committed to not hype my own gear on the net) I use my own compressor. Have for years. Built it for vocals, and I believe that it's the best thing for me. Your mileage may vary.
George
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#434244 - 03/31/00 10:14 PM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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dantheman_dup1
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 0
Loc: Brockton,MA,UNITED STATES
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George could you let the rest of us know what you did to the dbx 160 to modify it?
swingland@proaxis.com
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#434245 - 04/01/00 11:55 AM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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gm
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Registered: 02/10/00
Posts: 2184
Loc: Williamson County, TN, USA
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When I first suggested this to Dean Parks (who actually owned the unit) I think we did it with an OP-37 (or OP-27) variant. There are quite a few new op-amps for audio (which is to say, low noise, high slew rate, unity-gain stability) out, any one of which would be better than the crrrrraaaap that DBX put in the boxes. I haven't done op-amps in a couple of years now (I still prefer discrete transistor op-amps), but I'll ask around for suggestions.
George
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#434246 - 04/02/00 11:11 AM
Re: Vocal mixing path
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Ola Lagarhus
Senior Member
Registered: 04/02/00
Posts: 66
Loc: Norway
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To DantheMan, regarding modification or replacing op-amps in a dbx 160 compressor. If the op-amp is a DIL-type with 8 legs, I`ll strongly recommend this one:
National Semiconductor LM6172IN. I got two of them for free, as a Sample Order, by going to their Web-site. I have changed op-amps in a lot of CD-players over the years and have now
done the same with my Pioneer 05 hi-fi Cd burner. It`s best to buy the service manual and start from there. Then you have to decide whether the op-amp to be replaced is a single or double. In CD-players it`s mostly double chips. But, I have wired two single chips so they could work as a double - mostly with chips from Analog Devices in the past. The LM6172IN
is a double device and blows away the others I have heard. It is very fast - slew rate:3000. If you solder an IC socket to the circuit board to begin with, then it`s easy to change later. Some op-amps work best at unity gain level and others, like this NS device, works fine in a high gain situation like a CD player.
Good luck,
Ola Lagarhus
Norway
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