#433355 - 10/23/03 06:54 PM
Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Funkwave
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Look, I'm not a big post guy on this board but I do read it alot. There is always alot of arguments and bantor of what DAW is the best or the worst etc.
Correct me if Im wrong but isn't the sound in the hardware, not the software?
A program is a program and it merely stores created wav. or midi files on to hard disk.
The true meat in getting good sound is in the hardware. I hear guys all the time arguing over Cubase vs Sonar etc, and meanwhile they may be recording instruments through inferior hardware to begin with.
Let me be a little sarcastic for a minute. There's a big difference in a Bass track when it's recorded through an Avalon U5 rather than a Soundblaster.
If your main signal is crap, your whole recording will contain that signal. I don't care how expensive or flashy that new software is.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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#433356 - 10/23/03 07:18 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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You totally get the point.
Absolutely agreed:-)
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
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#433357 - 10/23/03 07:30 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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StoneinaPond
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While I agree that certainly the hardware has the biggest influence on the quality of recorded sound, I have to disagree that software plays no role.
I am not a software engineer, but I do know that code writing is executed with many levels of competence. And the software does describe how the files are processed.
There are so many things that go into the processing of the numbers that represent the audio we hear before and after conversion. If you were to simply record a single file into multiple systems with identical hardware, then quite likely there is no difference in the way the file will sound on playback.
But the moment you start to mix and buss and process, then I believe the software comes into play from a fidelity standpoint.
Minor, no doubt, but certainly there, IMHO.
_________________________
Yorik
Stone In A Pond
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
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#433358 - 10/23/03 07:46 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Veracohr
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Nope, the sound is in the musician. :p
What StoneinaPond said, summed up, is: different programs calculate numbers in different ways, and that is what people argue about. Whether or not the differences actually make a noticable difference in sound.
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"And then you have these thoughts in the back of your mind like 'Why am I doing this? Or is this a figment of my imagination?'" http://www.veracohr.com
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#433359 - 10/23/03 09:19 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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EXAGON
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Sorry, but you are evilish wrong.
Did you study some math at school?
Do you know that 65487/784*6845-98754+25479 is DIFFERENT from 6176871+681468*6871681-68716871?
And do you know that DSP cards have serious limits, and the programmers have to SHRINK the data path many times?
I.e. in a HD card, if you work with 32 tracks and 3 plugins per track the data streaming will be shrinked 96 times with dithering or truncation?
If this would result in a pleasant sound it would be ok (as was ok the 2" tape with all those artifacts)
But to my ear, it simply KILL the sound.
So when you will choose a DAW, yes, buy the best AD/DA you can afford, and chose the DAW architecture that does'nt destroy your sound.
Some DAW have a full datastream at 32 bit floating point, even with 255 tracks and 3000 plugins, every "word" is threated in his original form.
_________________________
 Features Are Not An Opinion. (John Hope, 2003) http://johnhope.blogspot.com/ Addresse: UIPLPPICDSS Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi Att. Tua Sorella Codice Mavapigliatelindomo Pirla Chi Legge
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#433360 - 10/23/03 10:10 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Geosync
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I have 6 different DAW software packages. All top-end I use the same very high-end matched A/D/A fo all of them.
There is definately a difference between the software mixers. They each have their own "personality".
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George Hamilton
Yamaha US
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#433361 - 10/24/03 12:20 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Alon
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Yes, funkwave is definitely wrong.
Just playing back the exact same audio file in a few different apps, will sound different, in some cases.
alon
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#433362 - 10/24/03 02:22 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Alndln
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For the most part your right,recording 1 single .wav file with the same hardware will and should produce the same results.The difference and complications come in with plugins,on how the host does it's math dealing with them through the summing bus.Another big difference is PDC(plugin delay compensation),if you have an app that doesn't support it and and you don't track shift in a sample accurate way,your going to get smear and an unpleasant mix.There's also 32 bit float v/s fixed point,if you don't keep track of every single plug in a fixed point app you'll clip over 0 db,while you can push 32 bit float a lot higher.So yes,all is created equal with the same hardware and 1 lonely .wav file,it's the introduction of multiple tracks and plugins during mixdown thru the summing bus and how the DAW does it's math that things get complicated,and differnt sounding.
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#433363 - 10/24/03 12:53 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Funkwave
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obviously I meant with no plug-ins in the signal path and assuming the volumes are set the same, etc.
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#433364 - 10/24/03 01:04 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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StoneinaPond
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obviously I meant with no plug-ins in the signal path and assuming the volumes are set the same, etc.
But how is this a real-world situation?
Perhaps for broadcast program assemblers.
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Yorik
Stone In A Pond
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
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#433365 - 10/24/03 05:35 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Funkwave
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Atually read the whole first post and you would understand the actual question.
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#433366 - 10/24/03 07:27 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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That was a part of the point to Lynn's DAW Sum CDs. He eliminated the hardware. I did the whole proceedure without once listening to the results.... I did it all on the meters of the DAW. So my hardware was not relevant.There were 30 test beds, of which I think that 20 were DAWs and the majority worked as mine did... not flowing in and out through bvarious hardwares. There was a reference set of files with which we all worked.
There is no doubt that hardware plays a part in the sound, too. But not the only part.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#433367 - 10/24/03 09:22 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Funkwave
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Well, what daw had the highest ratings?
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#433368 - 10/25/03 01:10 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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wireline
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None...its like asking which is the best breed of dog...what person A thought was pure audio heaven, person B thought was the cause of all cancers...while person C couldn't tell the difference...
There are differences - its up to you, your clients, your finances, and your work habits to decide which is best...I have 3 different mixing systems (2 DAW and one console)...they all sound different; they all have strong points; they all have drawbacks...
You're on the right track by reading everything you can access...I advise you totally ignore the children who slam a particular format every chance they get, but get as many user comments as possible...then ask more questions.
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So What ARE We Gonna Do With 8 Tracks...Fire the Arranger?
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#433369 - 10/25/03 04:22 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Loopy C
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Exactly. 
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433370 - 10/25/03 12:33 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by funkwave:
Well, what daw had the highest ratings?
But when it gets down to buying a system, my advice is to look at as many softwares as you can, and try to imagine sitting in front of them and working for 8 to 18 hours a day. When tou find the 'tool that fits your hand', you will have found your DAW, and you can build as powerful a computer to support it as you would like, or can afford. You don't work in the OS, you only use the OS to get to the program. So any idea of format wars is just stupid. Also, maybe you could hear a difference in an A/B listening experience, but if you record a group on system A and I record a different group on system B, there is no one in the world going to be able to tell you that you used A and I used B. (But I can sure tell when you have used cheap monitors in a bad room, and so can most anyone else. There are lots of concerns when building a room that matter more than the name on the DAW software )
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#433371 - 10/25/03 04:20 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Loopy C
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Once again Ever since my first music software purchase I have used one criteria, buy the computer that ran the software I wanted to use. If YOU hear a difference between systems, well that just made it easier. I have to whole heartedly agree with Bill and add, I myself do want to understand the workings of all my tools but not to the point that the REAL concerns are neglected. My priorities are more like;
1.Concept/Theme
2.Melody
3.Rhythm
4.Harmony
5.Lyrics
6.Arrangement
7.Instrumentation
8.Song Structure
9.Performance
10.QUALITY OF EQUIPMENT AND RECORDING
11.The mix
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433372 - 10/25/03 06:00 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Daniel_Dettwiler
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Rhythm
4.Harmony
5.Lyrics
6.Arrangement
7.Instrumentation
8.Song Structure
9.Performance
10.QUALITY OF EQUIPMENT AND RECORDING
11.The mix
a) the right position for the instrument in the room
b) the right microphones at the right place
c) the right Microphonepre
e) a comprossor if needed
d) a DECENT AD Converter to go in the Box
f) the right plugins (when mixing in the Box)
.
.
.
m) differences bettween different DAW's
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
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#433373 - 10/25/03 06:28 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Loopy C
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I whole heartily concur...
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433374 - 10/25/03 06:52 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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EXAGON
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The right position in the bed of the artis
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Features Are Not An Opinion. (John Hope, 2003) http://johnhope.blogspot.com/ Addresse: UIPLPPICDSS Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi Att. Tua Sorella Codice Mavapigliatelindomo Pirla Chi Legge
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#433375 - 10/25/03 11:54 PM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Funkwave
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Guys, I totally agree with you that performance, harmonics, tonal quality, performance, etc. Is what makes a great recording but I think this is all straying away from the original post.
The question was more about recording ONE individual track and comparing it through different daw's. Playing back a straight wav. through sonar, cubase, nuendo, etc. and using the app straight, no plug ins etc.
You would have to admit that if you recorded a vocal track through an entry level soundcard vs. a $4000 mic pre, you would have a tremendous difference in the quality of the wav. file.
This was my whole point in stating that it's really the hardware difference that would be more prevalent than the difference between daw's.
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#433376 - 10/26/03 12:26 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Loopy C
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I can only point you to the comments made about the DAWSUM CD (or encourage you to try the test yourself). In that case most did not find significant difference between DAW's WITH NO PLUG-IN's or other operations. Some noted smaller differences, I think you will not find a consensus beyond that general statement due to each individuals hearing, subjectivity and monitoring circumstances. Obviously some swear there is a more major difference and others simply are tired of hearing about and have moved on. I have been personally looking at this issue for over a year now and can tell you, there will be no consensus here! You will just have to choose your preferences based on your own experience. So in answer to your original post, yes and no. 
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433377 - 10/26/03 03:18 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Alndln
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Originally posted by Loopy C: So in answer to your original post, yes and no.
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#433378 - 10/28/03 12:28 AM
Re: Correct me if Im wrong!!!
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Uh Clem
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go here and read until you think you believe something:
http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=19
I'll say that the advent of Plug-In Delay Compensation (PDC), especially on FX sends has greatly improved the sound for me on complex mixes. This is becoming a mainstream feature (Sonar, CubaseSX, Nuendo, Samplitude) only recently and will make a difference. Programs that lack this require a lot of work to overcome the negative side effects of timing issues - even subtle ones - they matter.
Other than that, I think you are pretty much correct with your initial premise. There may be differences in a few cases: either bugs or design, but they are typically found around -130dBFS - if you can hear that down that low, then pick the one that sounds the best to you.
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