#433330 - 10/22/03 07:20 PM
Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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mike-x
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Sorry for the over long post - and I am posting it in numerous forums tonight - but this is an email I've sent in full to MacUser Magazine here in the UK. I am trying to raise awareness amongst fellow professionals about Apple Computer's abysmal Customer Service toward professionals who champion their use in all cutting edge media industries. Please remember I am not a troll - I am an established audio professional with over 14 years experience in Macintosh. I wouldn't use PC/Windows by choice and am not looking at a platform war - it's not about that - I'm just pis**d off at the experience I and others have had..... please read on if you will.
mailbox@macuser.co.uk
Re your Editorial 17th October 2003 (Page 5 - by Kenny Hemphill) Sorry for the long letter but you need to read it to appreciate the full story.
The penultimate paragraph struck a chord when I read through it. "It's not acceptable that a Powerbook or iBook that develops a fault in its first few weeks of use takes several weeks to be repaired"
I am a Professional Audio Engineer and reliant on various Apple machines in my job. 22nd August 2003 My 6 week old 17" 1GHZ G4 Powerbook suddenly refused to wake from sleep. I Forced a restart to be faced with a Kernel Panic. I went through every troubleshooting method known to me - A mac user of 14 years OS 6.x through OSX 10.2.6. I eventually removed the kernel extension that enabled my Airport extreme board. I was able to continue working but there were other niggling issues so I called the Apple Care Lines.
Initially a fantastic experience - my Mac would be picked up in a previously shipped packing box and shipped to the Official repair centre in Germany. This would take no more than 10 days. As I was off on holiday the following week I decided to return the unit just before I left so It would be back upon my return.
Back from holiday - Box delivered by DHL on the Monday morning (Logic Board had been replaced) - BRILLIANT! - or so I thought. Something still niggling on the sleep/power-up aspect of the machine. Closing the display would put the unit to sleep but plugging power to recharge would wake it up. If I didn't get the screen open quick enough it wouldn't light up and I would have to force a restart. Intermittent problems started happening running Protools projects on my Firewire 800 external drive (checked against another 17" Powerbook AND FOUND TO BE WORKING PERFECTLY) where the drive would lose contact with the machine and cause system crash - A full blown OSX Crash - Hard Restart again. To cap it - the Left USB Port wasn't recognising anything - not too clever when you are plugging in external peripherals and software dongles to do your job.
Call to Apple - 35 mins - it would have to go back again. OK - this time it took a week to turn round - acceptable if everything had been fixed. Trip to Luton this time. Opened box upon return - A new battery had been installed - full inspection and test. USB Port Still not functioning, FW800 still intermittent, unit still waking when plugged in. BUT at least I had been given a new battery!!
Call to Apple - 3 mins (a record so far) Many Apologies - they would despatch a(nother) box to me and would sort it asap. 4 days later (Friday) - still no box.
Call to Apple - 25 mins - I Requested a new machine as I had no faith in the ability of them to repair mine. Customer service rep said
1. 3 or 4 repair attemps needed to be made before a new machine could be requested.
2. They had no record of the previous call requesting a box
3. They would note my replacement request and mark this as a priority.
1 week later - SOME PRIORITY! - the box arrived to collect the machine. It was the wrong size and would never have contained a 17" Powerbook. (I fortunately kept the previous 2 boxes for posterity) I shipped the unit back again and waited.
1 week later - call to Apple. "They are waiting for a new Logic Board!" I requested they kept me informed.
1 week later - call to Apple. Same response.
4 days later - Monday 13th October 2003 - My machine arrives back out of the blue.
I anxiously opened the box. Not my machine it seemed - scratches along back where the lid has been prised off by a screwdriver. Serial number sticker in the battery compartment removed from mine and applied carelessly to this one. No spring in one battery release clip - battery half falling out upon unpacking. My flawless 17" display had been replaced by one with a glorious light stuck pixel almost dead centre and the keyboard seemed to be raised in the top centre around the t,y and 6 keys. I decided to press them down to check if it was just a poor fit. Bang - the machine powers off instantly. Any pressure around the casing in that area - same effect.
Call to Apple - I demand a new machine now. Each return has been accompanied by service report saying "full test and inspection". Obviously this is NOT the case. They pass me between themselves playing ENYA's interminable drivel as music on hold. I talk to a tech who asks me to unclip the keyboard and see if anything is caught underneath - I have to explain that the keyboard is not removable on a 17" Powerbook! - He suggests that as this would be the 4th repair they should replace my machine.
I am passed back to Customer services who say they will request the repair reports and call me.
Today 22nd October 2003 - 2 full Calendar months after the machine first went away to be repaired - I spent nearly an hour arguing my case for a new machine. I was even told that they hadn't called me as the reports only came back yesterday and they were a bit busy - to which I drew attention to their message saying they were "busy because of increased calls due to the success of recent product announcements" - which I said wasn't endearing to customers with old products that they couldn't get repaired to their satisfaction.
I now am typing my last email (on an external keyboard!!) before I lose the machine again for who knows how long. If (and that's a big IF) I get it back by then end of next week - 31st October - I will have been without a 100% working machine for 10 weeks out of the unit's 16 week life with me. I subscribe to various online Audio Professional Forums, am responsible for purchase advice for other Audio Professionals, Educational establishments and have an extremely long standing relationship with the foremost Audio, Film and Digital Media training centre in the world. All these people will be made aware of the disgusting lack of service - including being told that my warranty would not be extended by the amount of time I've been without the machine.
People I talk to are disgusted - APPLE is meant to THINK DIFFERENT. I cannot talk to anyone above a Customer Services Rep. I was told they have "non-public facing managers". If I could have flown to Paris and confronted Steve Jobs at the EXPO - I would have. But it shouldn't be necessary. My God it's hard enough having swum against the tide of PC/Windows know-it-alls over the years knowing my product is vastly superior without being dumped on by faceless telephone voices who have no authority to put me through to someone high enough up to make a decision that would have resulted in a happy customer. They are only doing their jobs, but that is Cr** company policy. If they'd given me a new machine (or repaired this one properly) I wouldn't be telling the world about how bad they are as a company. Surely they don't need any negative publicity.
This Machine cost me two and a half thousand pounds - I can't afford a replacement whilst they mess me around. What would it cost for them to get me a new one and repair this one and sell it off as refurbished on their wednesday morning apple store? I'd have done it to get rid of the weekly annoying phone calls from a seriously pi**ed off customer!
I'm now getting ready to copy this to BBC's Watchdog and every Apple based forum I know of. Maybe I can write back soon to tell you Im happy again - but at this moment things look very bleak. Oh, and by the way, do a search in yahoo for "apple bad repair" or "apple bad customer service" - it makes for interesting reading. Mine is not an isolated case.
Still - Roll on OSX 10.3 - mine should arrive next week. Wonder how it'll run on my Backlit Apple Portable, SE/30, Powerbook 520c, Powerbook 1400 or G3 Beige!
Yours - Still a fan of Mac but not of Apple
Mike Exeter
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#433331 - 10/22/03 08:06 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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EXAGON
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buy a pc now, you will be in heaven.
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#433332 - 10/22/03 08:30 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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mike-x
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Registered: 01/19/02
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Loc: Solihull,,UNITED KINGDOM
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pc's suck
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#433333 - 10/22/03 09:53 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Alndln
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Being married to Steve Jobs inferior hardware was why I abandoned Apple years ago.I now have no need for tech support.I build my own machines with superior components,and just think about music these days.
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#433334 - 10/23/03 11:08 AM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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edmann
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I am a long time (1984) apple user too - and just switching over to (experimenting with) PC - and I have to confirm that my PC experiences using XP have been great. No problems that I can't solve - it is fast and it works great. So as I add up the figures of what it would cost to stay current in the Apple world vs the PC world - and then survey PC app development vs Apple app dev - the winner as it appears to me right now is PC. I surprise even myself in saying this. Until 2 years ago I would never even consider working on a PC. I will keep my old G4 - with the software and OS that works right now (9.2) - and perhaps even drop in a cheap processor upgrade. But I am not going to continue to chase the tail of this Single OS/Hardware Manufacturing dependent system. I am thinking different = PC. I think that wealth of competing manufacturers in the PC realm keeps things healthy = survival of the fittest.
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#433335 - 10/24/03 10:49 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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hmurchison
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Registered: 08/18/02
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Originally posted by edmann:
I am a long time (1984) apple user too - and just switching over to (experimenting with) PC - and I have to confirm that my PC experiences using XP have been great. No problems that I can't solve - it is fast and it works great. So as I add up the figures of what it would cost to stay current in the Apple world vs the PC world - and then survey PC app development vs Apple app dev - the winner as it appears to me right now is PC. I surprise even myself in saying this. Until 2 years ago I would never even consider working on a PC. I will keep my old G4 - with the software and OS that works right now (9.2) - and perhaps even drop in a cheap processor upgrade. But I am not going to continue to chase the tail of this Single OS/Hardware Manufacturing dependent system. I am thinking different = PC. I think that wealth of competing manufacturers in the PC realm keeps things healthy = survival of the fittest.
The components in both platforms have been homogonized to the point where typically there is no superiority. Apple and the G5 have basically erased any significant speed advantage of high end PCs.
The future is about Software. Who can develop the best apps. I believe Apple's OSX is now superior to XP overall and I believe the next 2 years will have Apple extend this lead as Longhorn is going to be delayed until perhaps 2006.
I will not stop using both. It's nice to know you can run just about anything out there.
To the thread starter. Hang in there. Problems do happen. Good luck to you.
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#433337 - 10/25/03 11:13 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Loopy C
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I too am a Mac AND Pc user. My experience is that this has ALWAYS been an issue with Steinberg's products. Odd since they started on the Atari which was based on a Motorola (6830?). As it has been said, choose the system based on the software you want to use, in this case anything Steinberg go PC.
Of course the caveat to the stated G5 vs PC is that the G5 is not up to spec yet. Both the OS (Panther?) and SX need to be coded to take advantage of the G5's main new features.
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433338 - 10/26/03 01:26 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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edmann
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Originally posted by hmurchison: Originally posted by edmann:
I am a long time (1984) apple user too - and just switching over to (experimenting with) PC - and I have to confirm that my PC experiences using XP have been great. No problems that I can't solve - it is fast and it works great. So as I add up the figures of what it would cost to stay current in the Apple world vs the PC world - and then survey PC app development vs Apple app dev - the winner as it appears to me right now is PC. I surprise even myself in saying this. Until 2 years ago I would never even consider working on a PC. I will keep my old G4 - with the software and OS that works right now (9.2) - and perhaps even drop in a cheap processor upgrade. But I am not going to continue to chase the tail of this Single OS/Hardware Manufacturing dependent system. I am thinking different = PC. I think that wealth of competing manufacturers in the PC realm keeps things healthy = survival of the fittest.
The components in both platforms have been homogonized to the point where typically there is no superiority. Apple and the G5 have basically erased any significant speed advantage of high end PCs.
The future is about Software. Who can develop the best apps. I believe Apple's OSX is now superior to XP overall and I believe the next 2 years will have Apple extend this lead as Longhorn is going to be delayed until perhaps 2006.
I will not stop using both. It's nice to know you can run just about anything out there.
To the thread starter. Hang in there. Problems do happen. Good luck to you.
That said - I think this is a consideration that many of us are entertaining right now: In order to stay current and "kind of" fast on a Mac - you have to spend 3- 4X as much as for the same horsepower on a PC.
I just completed a project (1st ever non-mac) on the PC (Athlon 1.6) using Cubasis (!). In 4 days - not a single crash. Plugs sound GREAT. Automation a breeze. Mix engine - summing very nice and clear. The thing is screamingly fast. By my (very) rough estimations I could put together a PC that is somewhere close to or perhaps even at the level of a G5 - for $700 - $1000.00 That extra 2k can bring a lot - converters etc.
I love my G4 400. I really do not like any of the later G4s (heat and noise). For what I would pay for a lowend G5 I could have 2 killers PCs. Great software exists for the PC. True that whereas in MacOS everything looks refined, civilized and artistic - Windows apps do look like a strange Acid Cartoon, but after a while I kind of like that too, because it's weird. So, in spite of my own long term resistance to PC - I find myself caving in to logic (not the app). I will always keep that G4 400 because it is quiet and 100% reliable. But to spend more money on new macs?....so far i JUST CAN'T bring myself to do it, because I can't see WHY I should do it. I do believe that this hardware/OS monopoly that IS Apple is used to leverage consumers in a direction that is not entirely in their best interests. MS is of course the primary offender in terms of OS monopoly, but at least they are not the hardware manufacurer.
end rant
thanks~!
Ed
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#433339 - 10/26/03 03:08 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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d-dmusic_dup1
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I also kept my ol' G3/233/Desktop for email and Illustrator/Photoshop type apps.
I VERY rarely connect my PC to the internet and only for updates to plug-ins, VSTi's and applications.
I agree that users of Steinberg applications should positively go PC and definitely not MAC. This is only my opinion, of course, but it is from 7 years of experience running Steinberg applications on the MAC.
And, I really don't know that the Apple vs. PC hardware lines are so "blurred". I'm certainly no expert but the G5 at Steinberg Canada is jammed full of fans to keep it cool and the case is heavily insulated to keep it quiet(er) leaving room for only one additional internal hard drive ! Huge and heavy !!! I'll tell you that if I paid $4100CDN for that computer and saw the CPU meter @ 30-40% for the SX demo song I would have lost it. 
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#433340 - 10/26/03 11:24 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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hmurchison
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I used a MAC for 7 years running Cubase VST in various incarnations and various OS's. I tell you without pulling any punches that it sucked horribly. 3 to 4 crashes every single frickin' day on average.
P.S. I was over at Steinberg Canada on Friday and they had a brand spankin new G5. We were playing the SX demo song on both the G5 and the Music XPC and noting that the CPU meter on the G5 was bouncing around the 30% to 40% range while the MusicXPC was a rock solid steady under 10% !
That said - I think this is a consideration that many of us are entertaining right now: In order to stay current and "kind of" fast on a Mac - you have to spend 3- 4X as much as for the same horsepower on a PC.
I just completed a project (1st ever non-mac) on the PC (Athlon 1.6) using Cubasis (!). In 4 days - not a single crash. Plugs sound GREAT. Automation a breeze. Mix engine - summing very nice and clear. The thing is screamingly fast. By my (very) rough estimations I could put together a PC that is somewhere close to or perhaps even at the level of a G5 - for $700 - $1000.00 That extra 2k can bring a lot - converters etc.
1. They're talking about Homebuilts. Sounds great until you have a problem you can't diagnose. What company do you call first. You're Motherboard provider...OS....RAM?
2. Resale value. Homebuilts depreciate because they are slapped together and have no umbrella support of any kind. As is. Macs keep their value suprisingly well.
The lowend G5 is overpriced. I'm disappointed at Apple here. Hopefully they will come back to sane levels. You are correct. I don't think the Single G5's are very competitive and you can build a PC for almost half it's cost. I think the Dual G5 is really the only system that I think is price competitive.
I myself will stay cross platform. But I don't begrudge someone of chosing the platform that meets their needs. The onus is on Apple to provide such a compelling solution that price premiums are woth it. They are not quite there yet but the next two years will prove influential for this market on the whole. IE the merging of Computers and Music.
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#433341 - 10/27/03 02:03 AM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Stephen Fortner
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I don't like getting into platform debates, but I have to applaud you, hmurchison, for pointing out something I've always thought true about Mac vs. PC pricing. I'm a Mac user, but I've from time to time almost put together a PC for pro audio use. Everytime in the past five years or so that I've priced out the configuration I want, dual processors, the fastest memory and FSB available, etc, I've wound up in the same ballpark as whatever current Mac was the flagship of Apple's tower systems.
I don't want to hijack the thread. Mike-x, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experiences, and have no doubt they are true. I've had a few service calls to Apple over the years, and dealing with the shop I go to here in the States, things have been excellent. Every once in awhile, though, it seems like soneome's service order must be a hot potato, because everyone in an otherwise good organization (not just Apple) seems to drop the thing and further screw it up. Like a lemon car assembled at 4:30 PM on a Friday.
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#433342 - 10/27/03 02:06 AM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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d-dmusic_dup1
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Originally posted by hmurchison:
It's "Mac" MAC is an acronym. This anectdote tells us nothing. We cannot tell if the crash was caused by the OS or Cubase. Blaming Apple for Cubases shoddy code wouldn't be fair if it wasn't the OS.
Practically everything around here is anecdotal. It's called experience and we are all sharing our experiences around here. And 7 years worth on a MAC ! is significant experience. It's too bad for you that you dismiss it.
....Another worthless anecdote. Look at what you've written and then ask yourself "did I adequately describe the point of my post?". In this case you didn't...
It's really quite simple. The same song. The same audio files. The same application on two different platforms/OS's/processors. You can spend $4100 CDN on a G5 that requires 30-40% CPU power to run it or $2500 CDN on a XPC that requires under 10%. Duh !
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#433343 - 10/27/03 11:57 AM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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edmann
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Originally posted by hmurchison: [QB][QUOTE/]P.S. I was over at Steinberg Canada on Friday and they had a brand spankin new G5. We were playing the SX demo song on both the G5 and the Music XPC and noting that the CPU meter on the G5 was bouncing around the 30% to 40% range while the MusicXPC was a rock solid steady under 10% !
Another worthless anecdote. Look at what you've written and then ask yourself "did I adequately describe the point of my post?". In this case you didn't. Please Explain Why This Is "Worthless"...to me is says a lot That said - I think this is a consideration that many of us are entertaining right now: In order to stay current and "kind of" fast on a Mac - you have to spend 3- 4X as much as for the same horsepower on a PC. You do not have to spend 3-4x the money for the equivalent Mac. The problem with being a cross platform(although Mac preferred) users is this. I follow computers closely. I don't expect everyone to do the same however as of TODAY you cannot buy a PC that is equal in performance/features to a Mac 3x. If you could I'd be shelling right now. I do not know what a mac 3x is - but compare the price of a good PC againt ANY G4 and I think you will see that I am correct re: the price/performace ratio Crash problems are a nonissue today. Both XP and OSX are relatively crash prone.
Um no you cannot build a PC with support for Dual Processor, Hypertransport and Dual Channel memory for $2k less than a Mac.
The motherboard alone for dual Xeons or AMD are $400 on the average. I don't know why people continue to perpetuate this myth that PCs are so much cheaper.
1. They're talking about Homebuilts. Sounds great until you have a problem you can't diagnose. What company do you call first. You're Motherboard provider...OS....RAM?
2. Resale value. Homebuilts depreciate because they are slapped together and have no umbrella support of any kind. As is. Macs keep their value suprisingly well.
I have been on a mac since 1984 - produced many records and productions on the mac only. I am comparitively new to PC, and I am using the stuff, just like you.
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Ed Mann
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#433346 - 10/27/03 06:10 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Touchdown
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Hi Guys,
I think my man did a great job getting out the word on Apple's shoddy customer service. I've been there and i can't say I'm any happier. That said I'd like to hi-jack the thread for a bit to ask - at what bit rate do PC's process the plug-ins (i.e. - 24 bit or 32 bit)? Is that the same or better/worse than Mac G4 OSX?
Thanks!
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#433347 - 10/27/03 07:13 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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d-dmusic_dup1
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SX is 32 bit processing.
and the $2500 is for a custom built PC. The Music XPC. http://www.musicxpc.com
I've used it for 5 months of solid daily work and not a single crash or hiccup of any kind. Beautiful.
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#433348 - 10/27/03 07:35 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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edmann
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Originally posted by d-dmusic: SX is 32 bit processing.
and the $2500 is for a custom built PC. The Music XPC. http://www.musicxpc.com
I've used it for 5 months of solid daily work and not a single crash or hiccup of any kind. Beautiful.
I just mixed a bunch of stuff that I recorded in Cubasis and it sounds great: wide open and clear. Whole 'nother discussion but suffice to say that I am more happy with the sound than I am with any of my (well known mac app DAW) mixes.
So I am hot on Cubase..or Nuendo. And I too have experienced NO crashes whatsoever. Right click is a great option = easy editing. Nice!
Ed
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#433349 - 10/27/03 08:52 PM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Loopy C
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Pretty much all your "pro" native app's and plug-ins of recent design are running at 32 bit floating point, on BOTH platforms (i.e Core Audio). Certain designs based on DSP (like TDM) are 24 bit but higher-end plug-ins in this case will use "double precision" math to internally operate at 48 bit.
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#433350 - 10/28/03 10:12 AM
Re: Apple finally lose my vote after 14 years
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Alndln
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Originally posted by hmurchison:
[QUOTE]
Um no you cannot build a PC with support for Dual Processor, Hypertransport and Dual Channel memory for $2k less than a Mac. The motherboard alone for dual Xeons or AMD are $400 on the average. I don't know why people continue to perpetuate this
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) but as I said if I were the person who just bought that Mac (just for you hm 
) and shelled out my hard earned $4199 CDN I would probably have passed out.
