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#433093 - 10/11/03 10:07 PM

UAD1 or Powercore?

LawrenceF
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Registered: 10/11/01
Posts: 481
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I'm mixing in Nuendo and I'm considering adding a DSP card for more power. I have a few questions.

1. I've heard the UAD1 has great comps but the TC has better reverb. Given that "pro" reverb is hard to come by "in the box", would TC be give the upper hand there? Is the TC card's verb close to hardware?

2. What problems conflicts have users had with these cards? I use a Sony Vaio 2.1 with 512mb and FW drives.

3. I already ruled out the Powercore FW due to so many posted issues on the net. The original Powercore is roughly twice the cost of the UAD1. What do you get for the extra loot and is it worth it?

Here's my setup. Give me your recommendations.

Vaio 2.1 512MB XP Home
Nuendo Wavelab FruityLoops, Battery etc...
Mackie d8b

I track on the Mackie and mix in Nuendo. Currently I bus out vocal tracks to take advantage of outboard verb using the sends on the d8b. I'd like to mix tottally in the box but the verbs aren't cutting it. P.S. I tried convolution, to dsp hungry.

Thanks.

#433094 - 10/11/03 10:15 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

henryrobinett
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Registered: 11/06/01
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Lawrence, hey! I can't tell you about the Powercore. I have never used it. I have the UAD-1 and I really like it. I don't use the reverb on it though. I also have the Realverb and don't like that much, but will use it in a pinch. If you want to get it for it's reverbs I don't know. Dreamverb is coming out or is in it and I've heard good things about it for UAD but have yet to try it. As far as software verbs it's Altiverb for me or nothing. I use hardware.

The complaints about UAD are around it's latency workarounds. If your host application doesn't have any delay compensation it could give you a headache. I use DP and it doesn't have any but I just trained myself to work around it. No problems.

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#433095 - 10/11/03 10:18 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Uh Clem
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- best verbs are outboard by far - if you mix in the box, short of some of the convolution solutions perhaps, your verbs are going to mostly suck.

- TC Classic Verb on the Powercore is not bad, I use it occasionly

- UAD-1 otherwise to me has far nicer sounding plugs: the Pultec, 1176, and Cambridge EQ are all great and as you mentioned price, way more bang for the buck than TC

- I've had no issues with the PCI or 1394 Powercore

My setup:

WinXP Pro
Nuendo 2.01
Wavelab 4.0g
Intel P4 3.06 HT
Intel D845PESVL
2GB Micron RAM
Matrox Parhelia 128MB
VXA-2 1394 Tape Drive
MOTU 2408MKIII/308
MOTU MIDI Express XT/USB
UAD-1 3.2
TC Powercore PCI+Firewire/Sony
Mackie Control
Waves 4.01
Apogee AD8000 x 3

outboard verbs: Lex81/91,TC M3K, Eventide DSP4500

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#433096 - 10/11/03 10:42 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

LawrenceF
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Posts: 481
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Reading the literature on the Powercore says it's reverbs are taken from the M5000. I don't expect it to sound like the hardware box but I did expect that outboard DSP cards would have better verb than native.

It seems like the Powercore had much more DSP power than the UAD-1 also. I hear someone mention ClassicVerb but not the newer one I mentioned above.

Any users?

Lawrence

#433097 - 10/12/03 12:11 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Uh Clem
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The TC M3000 blows away the Verbs on their card, although I occasionally like the Classic verb - it sounds quite good on Snare to me.

The M3K is getting long in the tooth, as is the 5K, so imagine how an M4K or 6K might sound compared to Native or DSP cards.

The base 'verb that initially came out on Powercore (still there) was terrible to my ears as was UAD's Realverb Pro - probably the reason both Companies have released new, better 'verbs: The TC Classic Verb and the UAD Dream Verb.

I print my 'verb returns to tracks and then mix in the box. A nice compromise.

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#433098 - 10/12/03 12:36 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

henryrobinett
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Quote:

Originally posted by Uh Clem:

I print my 'verb returns to tracks and then mix in the box. A nice compromise.[/QB]

Me too. In my case it's PCM 91 or Altiverb. It takes longer but I can use the 91 many times during the course of a mix.

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Henry Robinett

#433099 - 10/12/03 10:19 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Mr Darling
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Registered: 04/15/01
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I do not see any real reason why a powercore reverb will have problem competing with a hardware reverb. They are both hardware. Both relaying on digital algorithem and DSP...
I actually love both reverbs on the powercore. The presets are ok, but of course you'll have to work on them a little to make them fit your needs.
The advantge of the powercore is that you actually buying 8 quality reverbs (thats how many you can use with one Card)

The rest of the toys the come with the plug are very usable, but I really see them as bonus to the reverb.
I use the compressors a lot (but find logic's new eq) better then the powercore one.
As nuando support full auto delay compenstation , you can't go wrong with either. But do not forget you get much more power from the powercore card, and even more from the Powercore FW.
(which I actually hear is pretty stable now)

HTH

Danny

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#433100 - 10/15/03 08:49 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Arka
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I´d definitely have to disagree! The both cards are quite equal as far as processing power goes, but because of the use of dated hardware on the powercore (4 slow DSP´s instead of 1 fast) you might find yourself running out of power more quickly on the Powercore.

This because each instance of a plug takes up x percentage processing power on one of the cards 4 DSP´s. Lets say you add a heavy plug such as Megaverb which takes up 50 percent of a DSP, then you add a Oxford EQ which takes up 33 percent of one DSP. You now have 83% load on one DSP, so if you add another Oxford EQ it wont fit onto that DSP and thus load onto the next empty one.

You realize that if you mainly use power-hungry plugs you might end up unable to use the cards full power. You might fit 3 Oxford EQ´s and 2 Megaverbs onto 2 DSP´s and still have 50% of the cards processing power left if you plan carefully and load the plugs in a strategical order, but you might as well find the same amount of plugs locking up 3 DSP´s if you don´t. And, no the card doesnt free up DSP power if you just switch off the plugs, you actually have to unload them from the VST-host.

Thats just one example of how technically inferior the Powercore is compared to the UAD-1. I find the drivers generally less stable, loading plugs while sound playing causing long moments of silence etc. Plus that physically the card is bulky as hell, about 1 feet long.

But as far as plugs go its really comparing apples to oranges. If you want the best reproduction of analog compression and EQ go for the UAD, if reverb is most important to you get the powercore.

We have both cards running in our studio daw, but they dont seem to get along to well. I have been thinking about sacking the powercore in favor of a second UAD-card.

cheers /Arka

#433101 - 10/16/03 03:03 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

FrankieP
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Registered: 07/16/01
Posts: 714
Loc: New York

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Quote:

Originally posted by LawrenceF:
I tried convolution, to dsp hungry.

If you're gonna shell out for a powercore just for the reverb alone, for a couple hundred dollars more, you can build yourself another PC, buy a 1 Host/1 Server license for
FXTeleport , get 2 cheap gigabit LAN cards, connect both PC's using a crossover cable, download the FREE SIR Convolution Reverb plugin, go to Noisevault.com and download some of the IR's, and you're all set!
But if compression and EQ is a biggy for you, then hands down, go for the UAD1!!!

#433102 - 10/16/03 07:34 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Alndln
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Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Darling:
I do not see any real reason why a powercore reverb will have problem competing with a hardware reverb. They are both hardware. Both relaying on digital algorithem and DSP...

Hardware Reverbs have more DSP power,and it's DSP chips don't have share duty's with other effects/plugs.Thus,the algorithms are written to take advantage of the extra dedicated DSP.

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#433103 - 10/16/03 07:56 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Alndln
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Quote:

Originally posted by FrankieP:
build yourself another PC, buy a 1 Host/1 Server license for FXTeleport, and download some of the IR's, and you're all set!

I was considering that myself but decided against it for 2 reasons,the first being that even on a seperate PC you'll only be able to run so many instances due to the spiking and general cpu usage overall,secondly,the more I screwed around with SIR and hundreds of impulses the less impressed I became.I still get better results routing my hardware DP2 thru my software aux and sharing one verb,and for ambient drier stuff good native plugins are fine for inserts.At the moment I still haven't bought either card because I'm getting great results with the free Blockfish comp,and TL EQ and Timeworks EQ plug.I do however think that the EQ situation could be improved by the UAD solution,but I'm not sold enough on the Pultec,at least not enough to screw with my system/latencey and spring $700.00 on an EQ that I'm not that in love with.When UA improves their plugs(mainly EQ) and offeres twice the availible DSP in a box similar to FireWire Powercore I'll seriously consider it,but at the moment,neither card is going to improve anything for me enough.I also think 2 things are happening,native DSP is starting to get better and hardware companies eventually will have to go the route of the FireWire Powercore(or something similar) to survive,so I think we'll have dedicated boxes that work as plugins soon enough.I'd rather pay more for what I actually need.

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#433104 - 10/23/03 12:50 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

bond1
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Registered: 09/13/01
Posts: 493

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Quote:

Originally posted by Alndln FX-51:
secondly,the more I screwed around with SIR and hundreds of impulses the less impressed I became.

Me too, but i still find it highly useful and a definite step above native reverb plugins. There was definitely an initial "wow" factor with convolution. But it really comes down to the quality of the impulses themselves. A lot of the ones on the internet aren't all that great, tails are cut off prematurely and such. And convolution just can't do things like modulated reverb tails.

I've made some impulses myself, and my first ones were so-so, but I've gotten better at it and my newer ones are almost indistinguishable from the real thing. I don't think i could tell the difference in a blind test, i can hear a very slight difference when doing an A/B test with headphones on, at least i think i can.

#433105 - 10/23/03 01:07 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

TRUN
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Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 66
Loc: East Orange,NJ,UNITED STATES

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Henry, can you provide a quick primer on how to print the reverbs using returns as you describe above..... Thanks...........

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#433106 - 10/23/03 01:22 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

bond1
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Quote:

Originally posted by TRUN:
Henry, can you provide a quick primer on how to print the reverbs using returns as you describe above..... Thanks...........

Well I'm not Henry but i do the same thing quite a lot. You just have to send the track you want reverb on out to your hardware verb and return a 100% wet signal to an empty track and hit record and let the song play. You'll then have a 100% wet reverb track to mix with the dry track. Hope this makes sense...

#433107 - 10/27/03 12:55 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

pseudonym
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Has anyone tried the UAD-1 with the ADAT interface, I was thinking it could work well for tracking between ADAT compatible input to ADAT recording device, mostly for use as a compressor/limiter. Instead of buying a bunch-of 1176's or La-2a's, does it support all 8 ADAT channels with any quality in comparison to the "real" deal? I'm guessing (based on replies so far)it's not that popular to use as a dynamic processor in the recording chain(outside the box), but it would be less expensive. It would also take-up less space, it'd be nice to have the world-class kinda thing goin' on without tons of racks everywhere!

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#433108 - 10/27/03 01:26 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

pseudonym
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OOPs, looks like it got dropped, I just noticed this product and didn't look around much for info on it. It looked kinda cool anyway!

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#433109 - 10/27/03 01:33 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Stephen Fortner
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Remember Digidesign NuVerb? Now, with convolution reverb convincing so many skeptical ears, someone ought to release the equivalent of Altiverb or Space Designer that runs on its own bundled DSP card. There's so many users going "I'm happy doing everything in the box, except when it comes to reverb" that IMHO there's a market waiting to be filled here.

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#433110 - 10/27/03 01:58 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

pseudonym
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The "dream verb" looks interesting for the UAD-1, although they need to get going on OSX support. I like mixing with a Da-7 and I have a TC m2000 connected digitally, when they dropped the price on that, I had to have it. The idea of connecting computers to digital mixers for effect/dynamic processing seems interesting, but mixer/controllers for compuer programs look like the future. I notice the prices are really high for 3rd party plug-ins if it's any "good", I'll bet the profits are great for them. Look at the Waves stuff, seems outrageously priced for a good compressor "in-the-box".

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#433111 - 10/28/03 02:38 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

schmoron13
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Loc: Syracuse NY

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does anyone know how the uad-1 works with sonar 2.2xl? does it work well, or are there a bunch of headaches involved?

#433112 - 11/09/03 11:13 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

dj jud
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I don't know about Sonar 2.2XL, but I have been using the UAD with both sonar 1 and, after the upgrade, sonar 3 with no problems. I agree, the reverbs aren't very fulfilling, but the comps and pultec are very good at filling a utilitarian role on on many channels. I haven't had a chance to fool with the lexicon pantheon in the new sonar 3. Has anyone found this reverb to be any better than the UAD dreamverb?

#433113 - 11/09/03 01:41 PM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Neil Wilkes
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UAD every time for me. DreamVerb takes a bit of effort, but is very nice indeed. Plus, as mentioned, with UAD-1 you get the 1176LN, 1176SE, LA2A, Pultec, (Cambridge optional) and the under rated CS-1 which also breaks down into another 'verb plus 2 versions of the Delay. Add all this to the Fairchild 670 due this month for only $149 extra, and you'll be buying a second one in no time at all. This thing really is amazing & worth the money just for the comps alone. Imagine:- 2 UAD-1 = 20 LA2A!!!

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#433114 - 11/11/03 04:54 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Alndln
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Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Fortner:
someone ought to release the equivalent of Altiverb or Space Designer that runs on its own bundled DSP card. There's so many users going "I'm happy doing everything in the box, except when it comes to reverb"

I agree,a dedicated card for a sampling reverb plug would be nice,but some PC users I know are running a second PC with SIR(free Vst convolution reverb plugin)via FX Teleport http://www.fxteleport.com since it costs about $500.00 to build a fairly powerful AMD based PC it probably works out to about the same price as a dedicated DSP card,maybe cheaper,plus you can run other plugs and VSTi's as well.Theyr'e promising Mac/Pc compatibility(only with vst/vst)in the future.

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#433115 - 11/11/03 11:36 AM

Re: UAD1 or Powercore?

Zeke Smith.
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Loc: NJ

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I had both cards for a while, and the PowerCore definitely does seem to have more "grunt" to it, as far as processing capacity is concerned. I simply was able to run more reverbs, Oxford EQ's, and other heavy plug-ins on it, and it's stable all the way up to 100 percent, which the UAD wasn't. But the UAD costs less, too.

A few other notes from my personal experience with both:

1. Out of the box, the UAD's main strength is the ChannelStrip plug-ins, the Pultec, and the compressors. RealVerb is average. Nigel is bordeline useless, at least for me. The PowerCore's main strength is obviously the reverbs, chorus/delay, and the Oxford plug-ins.

2. I would not consider the UAD's dynamic processing allocation to be a "feature." In practice, it means that the card is much more unpredictable when you're nearing the limits of its DSP. I crashed my computer a bunch of times testing the limits of this. The PowerCore is stable to 100 percent.

3. The UAD's support is better for the PC. The PowerCore's is better for the Mac. Just my experience.

4. The PowerCore reverbs are better than most plug-ins, with the notable exception of AltiVerb, but typical mid-level hardware boxes like the Lexicon PCM-81/91 still walk all over them. I have made direct comparisons between the Lexicons and the PowerCore, and let's just say that there is no comparison.

5. The UAD is an excellent bang for the buck if just for the ChannelStrip and compressors alone. If it will run well on your computer.

6. The UAD HATES dual-processor Macs. Experience speaking once again. It's much happier on a single processor.

7. The rest of the bundled TC plug-ins on the PowerCore, like the compressors and channel strip, are fairly useless. The UAD version of the same are superior.

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