#432888 - 10/04/03 01:05 PM
Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Keyplayer
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Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Maryland, USA
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I used to think latency was just a digital inconvenience that made it difficult to do overdubs. Then I learned what a pain it could be regarding the application of effects. Now I realize that it pervasivness is actually 100%!!!!!
You have to factor it into every single step of the recording process from the time you turn your PC on util you turn it off!!
I don't know if my ears have just become hyper sensitive to this because of my knowledge of it or if the problem is really increasing. But I seem to be spending more and more time factoring in and compensating for it.
I've got a simple setup: ONE PC (Nuendo 1.6x)feeding ONE DA7 via ONE 9652 card. I've got my ONE digital aux send feeding my ONE digital FX (a Roland unit) via spdif. Auxes 3 - 6 are feeding analog processors. I'm using 3 ADAT cards. So there's no extra AD/DA conversions on inserts or anything.
Nevertheless, I have to deal with as much as 12ms delay when transfering a track from one folder to the next folder, recorded and edited in the same PC. If I want to use all 32 channels of my desk (and I do!!), I've got to offset the 24 digital tracks a varying amount from project to project. So I can't build templates for shortcuts.
Plug-ins are just as bad as hardware because of latency. If I want to save CPU power and process several tracks through one stereo bussed compressor, the results are a 6ms delay that now has to be re-aligned. Since the plug-in created a variation of the combined tracks into a new waveform, it's a real pain trying to determine which transient is the best to lock to the orignal tracks, so that you can avoid that phasing problem. So you waste even more time with trial and error locating the one you need.
Your other option is to just process each track separately, which takes even more time and leaves you less "wiggle room" in your decision making process later in the project.
Recently, I transferred some files to do an overdub session at a Pro Tools HD2 Studio. I provided a click track and a stereo submix of the song (both referenced from Bar One & Zero seconds)for the musicians to play along with. Sounded fine in my shop. But my 2 tracks were off by .50ms at the PT studio. When I reloaded the files into my PC, the new tracks were off from the originals by 1.0ms! So the problem appears to be cumulative. I lost another 20 minutes re-aligning them before I could mix the song.
Is anybody else experiencing this phenomenon? If so, how are you dealing with it?  
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#432889 - 10/05/03 05:53 PM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Stein
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Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 59
Loc: LILLEHAMMER, NORWAY
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I used to keep track of all the latency factors when recording. I'd spend more time correcting for latency than actually getting any composing/recording/mixing done. In the end it drove me completely nuts, especially when sequencing drum tracks using sounds from different sources, going thru more than one AD-DA stage.
Now, I'm just using my ears. I try to use digital I/O for synths/effects, avoiding DA/AD. If it's live drums, or other tracks which must be phase-coherent, I pay extra attention to phasing problems. If I need some hardware inserts, I'll still calculate and compensate for latency.
I would still prefer to know that my tracks and mixes are mathematical correct, but to preserve sanity, I rather subscribe to the "If it sounds good, it is good" theory.
Stein Tore
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#432890 - 10/05/03 11:55 PM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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philbo_Tangent
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Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 1175
Loc: Iowa
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Good Lord!!
Does Nuendo have some intrinsic problems with this?
My audio interface has about 44 samples of latency with the ASIO driver on Sonar 2.2 (though the number varys with the sample rate used).
I've never experienced it or worried about it at all, except with the Waves pitch-shift plug-in, which has a hell of a lot of it.
(But lately I'm generally avoiding Waves plugs, both because I don't care for their sound and they are huge CPU hogs...)
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#432892 - 10/07/03 10:57 AM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Alndln
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:
Good Lord!!
Does Nuendo have some intrinsic problems with this?
_________________________
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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#432893 - 10/07/03 01:56 PM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Mr Darling
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Registered: 04/15/01
Posts: 1313
Loc: The Blue Planet,BELGIUM
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I don't know... life with automatic delay compenstation is pretty comfertable...
I have no problem tracking and mixing through my digital desk.However I do not attempt to use any external processor (digital or analog) due to the above mentioned fact.
Logic's compenstate reall good on all audio tracks and audio instrument, and when it comes to busses I am simply carfull not tu use any plugs that might use latency.
You have to know your system and work with the limitation , not fight it and try to do what you want it to do
Danny
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#432894 - 10/07/03 03:00 PM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Keyplayer
Senior Member
Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Maryland, USA
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Originally posted by Alndln FX-51:
Makes me wonder if Nuendo's PDC even works as advertised in 2.0,unless he's using 1.6 or earlier.[/ ]
Keyplayer: I stated in the original post that I am, in fact, using 1.6x. Nuendo 2.0 DOES have delay compensation. But it's soooo "Bug Riddled" right now that I'll take a STABLE 1.6x with latency.
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Originally posted by Mr. Darling
You have to know your system and work with the limitation , not fight it and try to do what you want it to do
Keyplayer: That is exactly what I'm trying to do. That's why I posted this thread. I wanted to see how others are handling this issue. 
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#432895 - 10/07/03 09:19 PM
Re: Latency: Like sand in a tunafish sandwich!
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Alndln
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
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No problems with DX plugs and Sonar(2.2) all the way around(inserts/sends/aux/outs),except there was a problem conflicting with Waves PDC which I don't use anymore.I'm also using the last VST-DX beta adapter(last one before Cakewalk bought them out) from FXpansion which does support PDC for VST.No delay or even smear here.I even can render SIR(higher latencey convolution reverb)in the inserts or live in aux and everything lines up sample accurate.So,it's not an issue I have to deal with anymore.I stay at 2.9ms from beggining to end and monitor from my soft out only(card mixer input muted).
_________________________
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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