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#432764 - 09/30/03 05:37 PM for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Sagoa
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So I'm getting more and more serious about my music everyday. I'd like to have a great studio for now and in the future. With the DAW, being the center of my creations, just what is the way to go? There are so many choices and it's not like I can't test drive everything, so I ask for some honest opinions. Just what seems to be the best DAW in terms of PC compatablity (not a Mac user) and future thinking (lasting potential for the product).

I have a "borrowed" copy of Cubase SX (which I will buy if it seems the way to go), but it's very glitchy. I see a lot of artists using Logic or Pro Tools. Logic looks like it's gone pure Mac now and with Pro Tools it looks like you need some kind of hardware. I basically need a product with great MIDI sequencing for external gear and solid audio sequencing for mastering.

What would be the best solution?

Thanks much.
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#432765 - 09/30/03 09:29 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Philip O'Keefe
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There's no such thing as a "best DAW". Ignore Tron if he says otherwise. ;\)

I'm actually serious - whatever best meets your needs and preferred working style is what you should use.

Logic is just Mac now, so unless you also want to change computers, that's (unfortunately) out. Logic is great for MIDI stuff, but I FAR prefer Pro Tools for audio. But PT's MIDI has lagged behind all the other programs - most of them started as MIDI programs and added audio capabilities later, while PT did the exact opposite.

Your only options as a PC user are 1) Steinberg's Nuendo / Cubase 2) Digidesign's Pro Tools (which does require Digidesign hardware, but a 2X2 MBox interface, which comes with 32 audio track PTLE software bundled with it, runs about $450 - close to what software alone will cost you) or 3) Cakewalk's Sonar, which is probably what I would suggest for you.

In my experience, Cubase is buggy and crashes a lot - but I have not used it for a while. PT's MIDI may or may not be sufficient for your needs. I find it's okay, but I REALLY hate that it lacks a notation display. For everyday MIDI tasks, it's fine - and it rules for audio IMO. Sonar is pretty reliable and has good audio, strong MIDI and even Acid style looping features. And you can use just about any audio hardware. That may just be the perfect "fit" for you.

I am a PC user, and while I primarily use PT for most things, I occasionally use an old version of Logic or Sonar for more intensive and advanced MIDI related tasks.
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#432766 - 09/30/03 10:44 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
EXAGON
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Ignore me.
But don't ignore the feature list stated by the manufacturers.

Read carefully the specs and if you can try the DAW you want to buy.

This is my top ten DAW list (computer based)

1: Logic Platinum 6 OSX
(better soft synths integration, 32 bit, 192 kHz, 256 Tracks, Freeze, and more)

2: Nuendo 2 OSX
(nicer user interface, 32 bit)

3: Digital Performer
(traditionally good)

Avoid Pro Tools, the sound is strange, the specs were good in 1995.
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#432767 - 09/30/03 10:55 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
radiospace
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I have both Sonar 2 and Cubase SX and contrary to the above opinion, I find Sonar to be terribly crash-y, while Cubase SX is almost bulletproof.

The big difference apart from the contradictory anecdotal experiences with stability that you've been treated to here, is that Cubase is a native VST application, while Sonar is a DXi application. Each can run the other's plug-in format with "wrapper" software, but it's only common sense that doing so is more likely to introduce instability or reduce system performance than using applications that are written specifically to run with your DAW. Since VST continues to be a more mainstream plug-in format, I find this to be a big plus in the favor of Cubase.

Both Cubase and Sonar have released new versions (which I don't have) in the past two weeks, Cubase SX 2.0 and Sonar 3. It might benefit you to hang around the forums of each of those products found at the company web sites, and eavesdrop. See which group of users is more satisfied with their upgrade, which group seems to be having more technical problems, etc. (Both groups emit a high-pitched whine 99% of the time in my experience...)

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#432768 - 09/30/03 11:18 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Ren.
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I can see a pretty hot -and God forgive me- pointless discussion is about to arise... \:o
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#432769 - 09/30/03 11:41 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Zeke Smith.
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I'm not wearing any pants!
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#432770 - 09/30/03 11:50 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Swamp
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Best DAW..... Let's see..
Whichever one let's You worry about Music and not the equipment..Whatever feels comfortable to to You.. If Cubase fells good, Go for it. They all have something good. It's what ever works 4 U.
Opinions are like assholes, Eveyone's got one and they all stink!!!

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#432771 - 10/01/03 12:02 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Matt.Hepworth
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I'm very comfortable with SONAR, but also there is Live by Ableton (which Phil neglected). Very cool audio/midi engine that never stops. Also Samplitude. Try a few and you'll find one that makes sense to you.
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#432772 - 10/01/03 01:19 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Loopy C
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"If You Meet The Buddha (or any other "guru") On The Road, Kill Him.

(A synthesis of myth, philosophy and literature that illuminates the true nature of psychotherapy and the journey toward self-discovery. Recounts the author's personal pilgrimage for self-understanding)."

For some reason this book for me seems to apply to this topic in all it's myriad forms. ;\)
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#432773 - 10/01/03 02:17 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by radiospace:
Cubase SX is almost bulletproof.
Steinberg finally found "1" person who thinks this. \:D
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#432774 - 10/01/03 02:23 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by radiospace:
Cubase is a native VST application, while Sonar is a DXi application. Each can run the other's plug-in format with "wrapper" software, but it's only common sense that doing so is more likely to introduce instability or reduce system performance than using applications that are written specifically to run with your DAW.
Since Cubase requires a wrapper(built in) for VST,that is comlpete utter nonsense.There is no reduced system performance running VST or VSTi's in Sonar or any other app using the wrapper.The only possible thing you could point out is that it took a couple of versions of the wrapper(FXpandion and Directixer) to support PDC.Wrappers are required for all plugin formats in all apps.
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#432775 - 10/01/03 02:31 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Uh Clem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alndln FX-51:
Quote:
Originally posted by radiospace:
Cubase SX is almost bulletproof.
Steinberg finally found "1" person who thinks this. \:D
Maybe two ;\) - I have great results with Nuendo, Sonar 2.0 less so but it is not so bad - I have 3.0 on order - we'll see. The other big PC player is Sequoia/Samplitude - very feature rich with the latest release.

I have tried them all and they all have one thing or another that will annoy you to no end - so as mentioned above, the best is what you can live with - almost every one mentioned except Nuendo has a demo - OK - no PT LE demo either. Try the demos of those that are out there - my order of preference is:

1) Nuendo
2) Cubase SX
3) Sonar
4) Vegas
5) PT LE
6) Samplitude

but that is totaly based on the way I like to work and the type projects I do - which is really the only way to look at it. None of these applications are bad and anyone of them can really be very useful - and my low ranking of Samplitude is hardly fair - just comes down to what I need. In truth PT LE is probably the crappiest one of these, but at some point it becomes useful to know PT and to have compatibiltiy with studios that use it - if not for that, I'd laugh it off as being almost obsurdly behind the others, although 6.1 is a step up from where they were.
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#432776 - 10/01/03 02:57 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
FrankieP
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Vegas, now there's a program that is so underrated!!! Now that i'm doing video editing more and more, I had grown to love Vegas so much that it has become an indispensable tool for me. But for audio, my primary tool of choice is still Nuendo2.
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#432777 - 10/01/03 06:04 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Philip O'Keefe
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True, I did leave Vegas off of the list - but that was because MIDI use was listed as a need in the original post. I also own Vegas, and it's a cool program - but isn't a MIDI sequencer. I left DP off the list since it seemed he wasn't eager to switch from a PC to a Mac. As for my other ommissions (Live, Samplitude), I have no excuses. Sorry about that! \:o

But my original intention was to say - nothing's "best" - the trick is to find out what works best FOR YOU. In that regard, I'm in complete agreement with Steve and NE-One.
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#432778 - 10/01/03 07:12 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by = stevepow =:
Maybe two ;\) - I have great results with Nuendo
I was reffering to SX,not Nuendo;).Also,I hear Samplitude is supposed to be getting more midi features in the upcoming version,so it might be a contender there as well.Consideration.All in all though,I agree that all the major contenders are very capable and it basically comes down to your needs and comfort level.
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#432779 - 10/01/03 09:16 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
EXAGON
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As you can see there are no 2 persons loving the same DAW.
There are 2 reasons:
1. Once you spent many $$$$ for a DAW, it is the best for you, even if they fooled you.

2. Every one as another head, another workflow, and another target, not to mention another seller and another experience, so all this summed results in a choiche of a DAW.
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\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
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http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
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Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi
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#432780 - 10/01/03 10:24 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Len
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Phil, what is it about PTLE that makes you want to use it more than Sonar? Kinda interested because Sonar appears to "have it all" yet more people appear to use Cubase/Logic/PT.

Will you be upgrading to Sonar 3? I (and I'm sure many other people) would like to know whether it corrects any deficiencies you currently find in Sonar 2.

Cheers

Len

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#432781 - 10/01/03 10:48 AM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Zeke Smith.
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Quote:
Originally posted by tron:
As you can see there are no 2 persons loving the same DAW.
There are 2 reasons:
1. Once you spent many $$$$ for a DAW, it is the best for you, even if they fooled you.

2. Every one as another head, another workflow, and another target, not to mention another seller and another experience, so all this summed results in a choiche of a DAW.
So would this mean that you were fooled by Emagic upon the purchase of Logic? We all know much too well that it's the best one for you, but, in your own words, has your inane religious fervor about it come as a result of the inability to see outside your own viewpoint?
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#432782 - 10/01/03 12:48 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Sagoa
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Thanks to everyone for their input! I didn't mean to start a "pointless post". I just wanted to hear from some of you who have used other DAWs.

So I guess I'll stick with SX until it totally pisses me off. LOL!

Thanks again to everyone!
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#432783 - 10/01/03 04:58 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Bonedog
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In defense of Steinberg and SX/Nuendo, the new version of SX uses the same code as Nuendo with some features removed. So as far as stability goes, it shouldn't be too bad at all. Also, I should mention that with your "borrowed" version it's very likely you may be having many more problems than with a "non-borrowed" version. Dongle emulation is known to cause some serious instability with the Steinberg product. I'd say that if you like the way it works, check out the new features in SX 2.0 and pick up a copy, I think that much of your stability problems will be gone.

Hope this helps,
Scott
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#432784 - 10/01/03 05:08 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Philip O'Keefe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Len:
Phil, what is it about PTLE that makes you want to use it more than Sonar? Kinda interested because Sonar appears to "have it all" yet more people appear to use Cubase/Logic/PT.

I can't speak for everyone else, but FOR ME, I find to be faster to use. Sonar does indeed have more features in some areas, but more features doesn't always mean "better" if they get in the way of the features you use all the time or just clutter up the UI.

Like I said, I use Sonar and Logic when I need them for advanced MIDI stuff, but the majority of my work is audio recording. For that, PT just "works" for me. YMMV.

Will you be upgrading to Sonar 3? I (and I'm sure many other people) would like to know whether it corrects any deficiencies you currently find in Sonar 2.

Cheers

Len


We'll see. I'm not in a huge rush to upgrade to Sonar 3. Many of the refinements are to the audio side, and at least for now, I'm using it almost exclusively for MIDI purposes. And I've been very busy with writing the book, doing sessions, etc. etc.

I think I'll wait until they get the first 3.X release ready to go. ;\)
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#432785 - 10/01/03 10:01 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Uh Clem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bonedog:
In defense of Steinberg and SX/Nuendo, the new version of SX uses the same code as Nuendo with some features removed. So as far as stability goes, it shouldn't be too bad at all. Also, I should mention that with your "borrowed" version it's very likely you may be having many more problems than with a "non-borrowed" version. Dongle emulation is known to cause some serious instability with the Steinberg product. I'd say that if you like the way it works, check out the new features in SX 2.0 and pick up a copy, I think that much of your stability problems will be gone.

Hope this helps,
Scott
Yep, the cracks, if that is what you mean, have notorious issues. Better off dowloading the official Cubase Demo from S'berg and seeing how that does for you after you cleanse the system.
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#432786 - 10/01/03 10:50 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Ren.
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Quote:
Originally posted by = stevepow =:
1) Nuendo
2) Cubase SX
3) Sonar
4) Vegas
5) PT LE
6) Samplitude
Vegas? I personally don't like it at all. I used it for a month. Is nice and straight forward, but I won't pick it for personal use. I'm gonna be using Nuendo this month. I've heard great things and I'm looking forward to see how it works. I will also use Cubase for the Mac these days... maybe is bulletproof... I'm about to find out.
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#432787 - 10/02/03 03:20 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Bonedog
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Quote:
Originally posted by = stevepow =:
Yep, the cracks, if that is what you mean, have notorious issues. Better off dowloading the official Cubase Demo from S'berg and seeing how that does for you after you cleanse the system.
I think that is what he means by using "borrowed" version of SX...not 100% sure though. At any rate, yes the cracks are notoriously buggy compared to the real deal as you said. I can't find software that "FOR ME" is as easy to use and as intuitive as the Steinberg stuff. I love it and find it pretty stable as well.

Scott
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#432788 - 10/02/03 03:43 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Sagoa
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Yes, I am working with a crack right now, and I figured it may be "cracked out" a little. I do have every intention of buying the one that works best for me though!
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#432789 - 10/03/03 07:15 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
Ren.
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Nuendo? I'm not liking it... no, no...
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#432790 - 10/04/03 03:55 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
sonusman
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I tried all the programs listed for PC here. Sonar was the easiest to learn, and provided me with everything I needed for audio.

Early versions always seem to have a bug or two. Usually a month of two later they have an update that fixes it.

I will probably stick with Cakewalk. They are a healthy company with a long history. I love Steinberg's Wavelab for two track editing/home mastering, but found Nuendo the be VERY clumsy in the GUI compared to Sonar. PTLE was a mess to learn, and it seems to do funny things to the audio that I don't like. Samplitude was strange (although, I have tried to the last two versions). Logic is out of the question! Too many damn boxes that have to be open to do anything. \:\( Vegas is promising. I have used it since ver. 2, but it is the closest interface to Sonar (from what I understand, Cakewalk obtained permission to more of less copy the Vegas interface for Sonar....not sure if that was true or not, but the guy I got that info from talks with the code writers of Vegas quite a bit.......).

But I agree with earlier statements. You use what feels right for you. ANY of the app's listed COULD have hardware/software capatibility issues that you might have to work for. All of them (with the exception of PTLE, which DOES do funny sounding things to the audio.....) will sum audio as well as each other. All of them have strength and weaknesses. Find your fit.

Good luck.

Ed

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#432791 - 10/04/03 03:59 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
sonusman
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Registered: 11/21/00
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Quote:
Originally posted by sonusman:
I tried all the programs listed for PC here. Sonar was the easiest to learn, and provided me with everything I needed for audio.

Early versions always seem to have a bug or two. Usually a month of two later they have an update that fixes it.

I will probably stick with Cakewalk. They are a healthy company with a long history. I love Steinberg's Wavelab for two track editing/home mastering, but found Nuendo the be VERY clumsy in the GUI compared to Sonar. PTLE was a mess to learn, and it seems to do funny things to the audio that I don't like. Samplitude was strange (although, I haven't tried the last two versions). Logic is out of the question! Too many damn boxes that have to be open to do anything. \:\( Vegas is promising. I haven't used it since ver. 2, but it is the closest interface to Sonar (from what I understand, Cakewalk obtained permission to more of less copy the Vegas interface for Sonar....not sure if that was true or not, but the guy I got that info from talks with the code writers of Vegas quite a bit.......).

But I agree with earlier statements. You use what feels right for you. ANY of the app's listed COULD have hardware/software capatibility issues that you might have to work for. Personally, I will not use app's that require dongles. Dongles are evil, and companies that DON'T use them are doing as well or better as companies that do.

All of them (with the exception of PTLE, which DOES do funny sounding things to the audio.....) will sum audio as well as each other. All of them have strength and weaknesses. Find your fit.

Good luck.

Ed

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#432792 - 10/04/03 05:26 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
chuck.dallas
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Registered: 08/01/03
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Here's another option not yet mentioned. Instead of going the full-blown Sonar route (Sonar 3 Studio = $479 and Producer series = $719), you might want to consider one of Cakewalk's scaled down apps like Home Studio 2004 which lists for only $129 (street price around $80-90). This might be a good way to get started at a relatively low cost. If you already have a Windows machine (minimum Win98 with 300 MHz/32MB RAM) and some outboard MIDI modules which it sounds like you do, all you'd need is an inexpensive MIDI interface like Midiman's USB Midisport (only about $40-50).

I recently bought this just for basic writing/composing purposes and am blown away by how powerful, intuitive and fast it is. It might suit your needs just fine and be a good and inexpensive place to start.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

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#432793 - 10/04/03 06:41 PM Re: for the gurus... BEST DAW?
sonusman
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Registered: 11/21/00
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Weird, this bbs software double posted me with quote's to myself! LOL
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