#432406 - 09/15/03 02:21 PM
Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Phil B
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In Roger's article in the September EQ, he says that, originally, CDs were mastered not from the original analog or digital master mix tape, but from a second generation analog copy of the master mix tape. That "mistake" was corrected, but he said the same thing is happening today with DVD-A releases (they are mastered from analog copies of 16/44.1 recordings).
My question for Roger and everyone else, is this: if I want to hear the absolute best quality playback of an analog recording from, say, the early 70s (and assuming top of the line equipment for playback for any format) would I want (1) an LP, (2) a CD or (3) a DVD-A of the album?
I know there is a lot to consider and this is probably an age old argument, but what do you consider?
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#432407 - 09/15/03 04:07 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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miroslav
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I'm sure some here can give you more technical reasons...
...but my bet would be on LP if you are going for “true-to-the-original”.
All that 70's stuff was recorded/mastered for LP release...not for any other format (well, you also had cassettes, but I don't think they were the primary concern then).
So the 70's stuff that has found it's way onto CD and DVD is either a bastardized version that came right off the analog master...or possibly it was re-mixed/re-mastered specifically for CD/DVD, in which case it might even sound different than the original LP release…kinda’ apples & oranges then.
A lot depends on how those original tapes were transferred to the digital medium(s).
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#432408 - 09/20/03 12:36 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Bill Mueller
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I don't want to get flamed over which is better, the LP or the CD, however I must point out that it is much easier to transfer the total dynamic range and frequency response of a 15ips analog tape to a CD or DVD-A than to an LP.
I have been engineering since the 70's and believe me, it was a nasty shock most of the time to hear what a mastering engineer did to your beautiful 1/4" master to get it onto an LP, don't even get me started on the sound of a 45.
The high end was compressed to within an inch of it's life and distortion figures above 10k were horrendous. Very low frequencies were filtered out to keep tracks from slamming into each other and to extend recording time on the black disc. Maximum record levels for low, mid and high frequencies were all different because of these factors. You HAD to change the balances just to get in on the disc. Print through varied depending on the mastering engineers methods and crosstalk isolation was under 45 db which compressed the sound field to half of what it was on the 1/4" master. Then combine the analog masters wow and flutter with an out of round disc. I finally began mastering my own stuff just to try and keep the LP sound similar to the 1/4" master.
I am NOT saying that there were no good sounding LP's but I guarantee you the original 1/4" masters for those LP's sounded fabulous!
I would pick a recently remastered CD or DVD-A (hopefully from the most original analog master and not a copy of an LP declicked and Cedar filtered) over an original era LP. MHO.
Best regards,
Bill
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#432409 - 09/20/03 12:50 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Phil B
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Very interesting stuff, Bill. Thanks for the insight. I'm glad to hear you think the best is not behind us!
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#432410 - 09/20/03 01:14 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Lee Flier
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I agree with Bill. CD's definitely sucked at first, but today's mastering techniques and mastering gear and playback gear have come a long way. Although I still prefer tape and analog consoles as a recording and mixing format, I think the CD is at least in theory (and now often in practice) a better end-user format than vinyl.
I don't think the question anymore is so much which format is better, but who did the remastering job. There are still some godawful remasters of old stuff being put out on CD, because the wrong people supervised the remaster. Most of the best remasters tend to be supervised by the original artist and/or production/engineering team, and also are careful about preserving the original integrity of the recording. Any attempts to remaster old albums to CD in a way that makes them sound more "modern" tend to, well, really suck.
I'm sure the same thing will happen with DVD-A and any new format that comes along, for awhile. People (including listeners, engineers and gear designers) often get so enamored of new technology that they aren't very objective about it for the first few years of its existence. Then things usually settle down and fidelity becomes a consideration over novelty again.
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#432411 - 09/20/03 03:38 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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halljams
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I lost a good portion of my record collection some years ago and i have been slowly replacing it on CD.
I am constantly dissapointed at how squashed to be loud and gross sounding alot of these "remastered for CD" cd's sound. it is so depressing.
When i listened to these albums years ago i had no understanding or ears for compression, but i know they weren't intended to be this loud.
I wish they would be true to the original version when re-issuing stuff on cd.
That said, i notice some are in fact like the original. Fleetwood mac Rumours is a good example. It's very refreshing to hear music that breaths these days.
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#432412 - 09/20/03 08:02 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
I don't think the question anymore is so much which format is better, but who did the remastering job. There are still some godawful remasters of old stuff being put out on CD, because the wrong people supervised the remaster.
I agree that if you wanted to take a nice analog tape master and transfer it to something...CD/DVD would be much easier and maybe more accurate than LP.
But the question was about a lot of the 70's stuff...and WRT them, I agree with Halljams, most of them got trashed when it was being transfered to CD.
I too have heard a difference between the original LP and the CD versions.
Also...though many have been well transfered of late...I really hate it when they dramatically change the sound of the original, as it was on LP.
Some can argue that the differnce comes from the "new" version having a better frequency range/response than the LP did...but when you hear a favorite LP for many years, and then all of a sudden it sounds different...it's not always a pleasing difference, even if in theory, it may be more accurate to the original analog master tape.
You know...you just get used to a well worn pair of slippers sometimes...even if they are not as "good" as a new pair. 
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#432413 - 09/21/03 06:28 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Loopy C
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Do you suppose ZZ Top is regretting yet the addition of reverb on "Tres Hombres" now that the "modern" sound is dry and in your face (as was the Tres Hombres LP).
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#432414 - 09/21/03 10:03 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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steelydoubt
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oh, thats why teh version i have on tape sounds better than the one on the radio. who knew.
and dont get me started on all the crap on the cd reissues of the stuff by the dan (the last few songs on aja and stuf)
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#432416 - 09/23/03 10:36 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Bill Mueller
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Do you suppose ZZ Top is regretting yet the addition of reverb on "Tres Hombres" now that the "modern" sound is dry and in your face (as was the Tres Hombres LP).
--------------------
Chris R. Gibson
aka Loopy C
Micworks
Ken Tamplin Mastering
Loopy,
I was on that tour as well as the end of Rio Grande Mud. I was Billy's guitar roadie.
Bill
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#432417 - 09/23/03 11:22 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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steelydoubt
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well even if the sound being sampled didnt go over roughly 25khz, it would still be better to sample it at about 96ksps because the sound would be more defined.
so
25khz -> lowpass (22khz) -> sampled (96ksps) -> played back (96ksps) -> lowpass (22khz)
would sound batter than
25khz -> lowpass (22khz) -> sampled (48ksps) -> played back (48ksps) -> lowpass (22khz)
would there be much improvement?
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#432418 - 09/23/03 11:28 PM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Loopy C
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Originally posted by Bill Mueller:
I was on that tour as well as the end of Rio Grande Mud. I was Billy's guitar roadie.
Bill
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#432420 - 09/25/03 01:35 AM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Bill Mueller
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Billy Gibbons is the most under rated guitarist in the country (MHO) and anything that gets in between his quarter on Pearly's strings and my ears is a bad thing. I have a hard time believing that Terry Manning did the verb thing. Musta bin somebody else in the mastering room.
Best,
Bill
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#432421 - 09/25/03 02:02 AM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Loopy C
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Does this mean this decision was made WITHOUT the bands involvment? I guess I figured it was coming off their period of the 80's MTV/dance club success, synth bass and all, maybe all that produced sound somehow made sense to them in that context. Scary to think someone outside of the artist's camp could make such a detrimental creative decision. Using sub par copies of the masters is one thing, ADDING effects to a master should be a crime without the artist's say-so. Frank Zappa got a lot of flak for messing with early releases but at least it is his right as creator, despite any arguments to the preservation of "history". I hope that efforts to come will realize the importance of not messing with masters UNLESS the original teams are involved and are simply taking advantage of improvements in technology to "hone" the original intent (Queen and Led Zeppelin come to mind in this respect). I think the fact that the reference was the same in Lee and myself's mind to what was a much more general comment speaks to what a mistake this was in ZZ's case. I am with you Lee in hoping they rectify it, if they fix it I will buy it again (for the third time), it's just too classic an album (I hope they make a "Classic Album /Making of Video Series" of it one day. OT, the series just released "Dark Side of the Moon" for those who are into these great looks into the studio and process of album making.
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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#432422 - 09/25/03 02:11 AM
Re: Roger's "Resolution Revolution" Article
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Loopy C
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BTW Bill, totally agreed about Gibbon's. One of the epiphanies in my efforts as a guitarist was in realizing how much he could convey while "chirping" away on a very limited amount of notes, his phrasing (along with his sound) is totally unique and taught me a lot about these elements. I went from playing scales to playing lead by learning different ZZ tunes for bar band gigs. Those lessons stay with me today, more than any jazz theory/technique I had worked at till then.
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Chris R. Gibson aka Loopy C Micworks Ken Tamplin Mastering
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but especially 2) in "Roundabout" those weird high-pitched beeps are FINALLY gone (and there is now extra reverb--too much IMO). But the stereo track must be from the original stereo master because those beeps at 5min 20sec & 5min 25sec are still there. 
