#389640 - 07/18/05 11:26 AM
OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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What's the odds someone here would know? How to read a water meter. I can't find a plumbing forum that is operational.
This is about my mom's water bill. Long story short, continuing head scratcher about what seems to be unusually high usage for a low usage home. Bottom line is that if you fill up a five gallon bucket, carefully measured, time after time, it will not read 5, it will read 18.
So, the question is how to read the meter. It is Rockwell Z-00 2" meter, installed 1981. Like anyone would know, huh. Anyway, crux of the matter...
The meter has, I think six digits, it's a clicker counter like an odometer. Then, there is a needle that is gradated from 0 to 100. The meter says "gallons." Now, with the needle being 0 to 100, would you not assume that each of those increments is 1 gallon?
If you note the needle reading... say, it is 12... and you fill the bucket... it will read 30 after filling five gallons. A difference of 18. Indicating to me that the meter measured 18 gallons of flow.
The water department says "water usage has been constant since 1981, here is the printout." I say "Fine, now how do you explain the five gallon bucket deal? How do you know the meter is not defective since 1981? Are meters ever defective?"
I'm going ring around the rosy with them. It's simple... how do you read the needle? Seems to me a needle 0 to 100 and the meter says "gallons," that would be GALLONS. Case revolves around that. If someone can explain why it reads 18 units of something when you measure five gallons, I'll let it go.
Trying to get a satisfactory answer about that from them is like pulling teeth.
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#389641 - 07/18/05 11:50 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Tedster
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Sounds offhand like a unit problem. It might not be measuring "gallons". Often a river's flow is measured in something along the lines of cubic feet...cubic meters...or whatnot. Of course, I'd expect a cubic foot of water to be more than a gallon, negating the "18" measurement. Hmmm...cubic inches? What else?
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#389642 - 07/18/05 11:58 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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A String
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I always assumed that the reading was in gallons. I would assume that if you are reading a higher output it could be a few things.
First thing I would do is check and make sure you don't have any leaks that become active when you turn the water on.
Secondly, if there is air in your lines, maybe it's using more water to fill the lines up each time? (The water would be very slow getting to the faucet if this was the case).
Lastly, They are bastards and the thing is broken. I would insist that someone come out and check it. No point it paying out money to a company when you don't owe it.
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#389643 - 07/18/05 12:01 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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A String
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Did some checking and found out that 1 gallon is just over 18 liters. I wonder if the thing is measuring in liters?
I think I don't know enough about this to be of any help and you should ignore everything I've written as though I had written nothing. Sorry....
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#389644 - 07/18/05 12:02 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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There is no leak when there is no water flow. When you turn on the water, is there any possibility water could go 'somewhere else' when you turn it on? I don't understand. If the water is off in her house, there is no needle movement. I've checked it countless times.
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#389645 - 07/18/05 12:03 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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A String
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You're right Tedster. I seem to recall these things measuring in Cubic measurments.
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#389646 - 07/18/05 12:06 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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No, I don't think that's right. 1 gal = 3.78 litres
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#389647 - 07/18/05 12:14 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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I got on a conversion site and found nothing that makes sense. Wait a minute...
1 gal = 3.78 litres
18 / 5 = 3.6
hmmm...
EDIT: I dunno if that makes sense. But...
5 gal x 3.78 = 18.9 litres
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#389648 - 07/18/05 12:21 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Billster
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Are you sure the meter measures gallons? Every link to every public utility here discusses readings in cubic feet, and converting to billing units.
The dial is irrelevant. The numbers you want to read are the rollers that look like a car odometer.
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#389649 - 07/18/05 12:29 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Reitzas
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Talk about a broken water meter.
Downstate Illinois woman receives $74,000 water bill
July 12, 2005 (MASCOUTAH, Ill.) — It's been a hot, dry summer in this St. Louis suburb, but Rose Mary Cook knew there was no way she could have used $74,000 worth of water.
The city's utility department claimed Cook used 10 million gallons of water last month, charging her $29,787 for water, $43,581 for sewer, plus $893 for municipal tax.
"Luckily, when I opened the bill, I was sitting down," Cook said. "I could have filled every pool in southern Illinois and still not used that much water."
Cook presented the bill to a public works employee at City Hall. The city quickly determined the whopping charge was the result of a broken meter and issued her a corrected bill for $32.66 -- waiving Cook's monthly water and sewer charges for her troubles.
"My daughter asked me if I was hoarding water during the drought," Cook said. "I told her I would, but I don't know where I would find 10 million gallon jugs."
(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Dave Reitzas
http://www.reitzas.com
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#389651 - 07/18/05 01:16 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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Hey Billster, it looks like THAT. Except it says GALLONS. Nothing else other than GALLONS.
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#389652 - 07/18/05 01:27 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Billster
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If you say so, the meter reads gallons.
OK, but the dial is probably not gallons. I would say it is some smaller increment. The operative reading is going to be the odometer-style rollers.
Your "bucket test" is not going to be accurate in all likelihood, because of the finer measurement of the dial, and other factors, such as water left in the length of plumbing and hose (past the meter, not in the bucket)
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#389653 - 07/18/05 01:40 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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I know they go by the roller readings. I understand that. But NOBODY could tell me why it reads GALLONS and yet shows 18 when a 5 gal bucket is filled. Time after time.
Nobody can answer it. Now, they called and said they can't figure it out, they called a meter expert from the big city and he is coming tomorrow to discuss how to read it.
It just never made sense, since it says GALLONS. (Crappy meter face design, in my book.)
I'd also like to know... again, if anyone knows... if you have water "on" anywhere, if that could make water leak somewhere else. Even though it does NOT leak when no water is being used. (Even if they explain the meter, the usage still seems high.)
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#389654 - 07/18/05 01:44 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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not Cereal
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you seem high.
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#389655 - 07/18/05 02:34 PM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Billster
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DUKE-WTF?
From your first post:
Originally posted by LiveMusic:
The meter has, I think six digits, it's a clicker counter like an odometer. Then, there is a needle that is gradated from 0 to 100. The meter says "gallons." Now, with the needle being 0 to 100, would you not assume that each of those increments is 1 gallon?
If you note the needle reading... say, it is 12... and you fill the bucket... it will read 30 after filling five gallons. A difference of 18. Indicating to me that the meter measured 18 gallons of flow.
Then, you come back with:
Originally posted by LiveMusic:
I know they go by the roller readings. I understand that. But NOBODY could tell me why it reads GALLONS and yet shows 18 when a 5 gal bucket is filled. Time after time.
Do you understand that the needle does not represent gallons?
Do you understand what I said earlier about the needle representing smaller increments, and that your bucket test is bound to be inaccurate?
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#389656 - 07/19/05 09:16 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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Originally posted by Billster: DUKE-WTF?
From your first post:
Originally posted by LiveMusic:
The meter has, I think six digits, it's a clicker counter like an odometer. Then, there is a needle that is gradated from 0 to 100. The meter says "gallons." Now, with the needle being 0 to 100, would you not assume that each of those increments is 1 gallon?
If you note the needle reading... say, it is 12... and you fill the bucket... it will read 30 after filling five gallons. A difference of 18. Indicating to me that the meter measured 18 gallons of flow.
Then, you come back with:
Originally posted by LiveMusic:
I know they go by the roller readings. I understand that. But NOBODY could tell me why it reads GALLONS and yet shows 18 when a 5 gal bucket is filled. Time after time.
Do you understand that the needle does not represent gallons?
Do you understand what I said earlier about the needle representing smaller increments, and that your bucket test is bound to be inaccurate? 
I was simply saying that I *know* they base their USAGE readings on the counter reading... they don't give a rat's ass about the needle. BUT, my point being that the needle reading SO high when I do my test, it doesn't make sense. The NEEDLE drives the roller readings!
UPDATE: Occasionally, the karma king let's one be right. It keeps one sane, I suppose.
I just met with the MAYOR, the head of the water department and an official from the state department for utilities. They brought the big gun in to shut me up.
The meter expert gets down on his hands and knees to read the meter. (It's in the ground.) He stares for a full minute. Comes up for a breath of air. Says "This is hard to believe. I must check this once again." Goes back down and stares another minute. "This is unbelievable. This man (me) is right. This is a 2" meter on a 1" line. This man is right. It's reading WAY higher than it should. How long has the meter been installed?" MAYOR: "Since 1981." EXPERT: "This man is correct. It's never been right and will never be right."
We're talking about thousands of dollars.
And this was after a phone call yesterday with the mayor who wanted to close the case. MAYOR: "Did you see the printout of the usage since 1981 I gave your mom and see how fairly consistent the usage has been since 1981?" ME: "Yes, Mayor, I did. But it is moot. You are missing the point. I am saying that if I am reading this meter correctly, the meter is wrong. Now, someone needs to tell me how to read the meter." MAYOR: "Well, it's been there since 1981." ME: "Yes, and maybe it's been wrong since 1981. Is there any possibility the meter is defective?"
Feels good. Thousands of dollars. This should be very interesting. Wow, what a concession they should make. I don't how they're going to handle this. I'd like my mom to not take their offer without talking to me.
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#389657 - 07/19/05 09:40 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Gator Wing
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Persistence pays off! Good job.
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#389658 - 07/19/05 09:59 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Lee Flier
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Wow. Makes you wonder how many other people's homes "accidentally" had the wrong meter installed.
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#389659 - 07/19/05 10:02 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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not Cereal
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they most liekly will give you little satisfaction. ive had to deal with these sh{Theads before.
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#389660 - 07/19/05 10:02 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Billster
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Duke, if you look at the picture of the meter I posted above, the numbers for the needle have a decimal before them. The needle shows increments of a gallon, not gallons. The needle will go faster than a gallon, because it is an increment. The gallon reading would be one of the rollers. Because of the built-in inaccuracy of your bucket test, the smaller increment of the needle will not be accurate.
Now, knowing that the meter was the wrong size for the pipe, who installed the thing? If the meter is intended for 2" pipe, there would have to be a step-up pipe to connect a 1" feed, and a step-down to connect a 1" outlet.
I understand that because of the pressure difference caused by different size pipes, the flow reading would be inaccurate. But how do you connect a 2" meter to a 1" feed without a step-down pipe? Hang the loose ends of different size pipes close to each other and just keep gobbing solder on the gap between the pipes' different diameters? Exactly who installed the meter?
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#389661 - 07/19/05 10:11 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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LiveMusic
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Billster, the meter is SIMILAR to what you posted... meaning it has roller digits and a needle. But it's GALLONS. I asked the expert, "This is 0 to 100 GALLONS, correct?" HIM: "Yes, for this particular meter, each revolution of this needle is 100 gallons, as you said. But this particular meter will always read way high on this line."
I dunno, all I know is this guy is the expert who deals with this everyday and has for decades and he said somehow, they repaired a meter or something and put the wrong meter on the line. He was flabbergasted when he looked down into the hole where the meter is. SHOCKED.
I noticed some reduction nipples on the line... 2" main line, coming down to 1" and then back to 2"? We'll see how it goes. They say they are going to analyze the 24 year readings for an "adjustment." She needs to be careful. You don't want to hurt a small town but if, in fact, she has been overcharged for 24 years, it's a lot of money. Maybe they should also pay interest. A mess.
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#389662 - 07/19/05 10:29 AM
Re: OT - Odd water meter question
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Billster
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Oh, and let me tell you about water meters from my days in commercial real estate. The building was a parking garage with ground floor retail, located on Washington Street in downtown Boston (the location will be important)
Once upon a time, the water department wanted to upgrade meters to radio-transmitter models that did not require the meter reader to enter the building. So they installed a new one, and took a final reading from the old one.
The final reading from the old meter resulted in a water bill of something like $884,000 or some other absurd number that might have been higher.
Of course we disputed this, because the property owner had been paying water bills along.
However, the bills for many years had been estimated because according to the meter reader records, the building was always locked and he could not access the meter. This of course was ridiculous, because the building was a 24 hour parking garage. There was always an attendant on duty. The meter reader could show up at 2:00 a.m. and there was a cashier there with a key to the utility room.
So we appeal the $800,000 bill. Further research reveals that the meter reader was going the same street number on a different Washington Street in a different section of Boston. (There are actually three different Washington Streets within the Boston city limits) The other place was apparently an abandoned church. So the diligent meter reader applied the estimation formula for "church". The bills went to an accounting department in a different state, and were dutifully paid until the $800,000 bill showed up and set off defcon-3 status.
I think they came to some sort of compromise, because after all, the water was used, but who knew by whom? The estimated bills actually dated back through a change in ownership of the building.
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