#2465 - 08/07/01 06:33 PM
What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Bonafide
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Do we have the right to 'Gauge' what makes a 'real' musician or not. A 'Sampler' is an instrument. (Definition of Instrument: A device used to produce music) Too much of the feeling on this forum lately is that if some person creates a whole album out of sampled loops and electronic instruments, he/she is less of a musician. Why?
If Samplers and drum machines had been available in the 50's, You can bet the Beatles would have used them in the 60's. I wonder what your opinions would be today? Since we are creating music with electronic instruments, why must we be di-gressing somehow? I doubt that's what our children will think in 10 years.
So when are you 'cool' and 'real'. Perhaps if you use 50% organic instruments and 50% electronic you are now classified as a musician. Or is it 20%-80%? Or 30%-70%? I don't know.
(Definition of Bigot:A person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
Isn't that all this is, Bigotry?
There are a scant few on this board who always seem to find a something positive an genuine. So many people claim to dislike prejudices and yet post after post show them railing someone because they don't fit into thier 'pre-set' parameters or beliefs of what an 'artist' or 'musician' is.
Is Robert Fripp a better Guitarest than Tom Petty? (insert opinion here)
Is Terry Brown a better producer than Babyface? (insert opinion here)
Is Niel Pert a better drummer than Charlie Watts? (insert opinion here)
Let the flames come, flames come out hate. I have posted other remarks along the same lines and it always gets people flipping and flapping. Somehow anything other than what you 'deem' is good, proper and real is insuperior and a sellout, and should be dis-credited. There is already so much goddamn hate and pain and suffering, why add to it?
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#2466 - 08/07/01 06:50 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Lee Flier
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Bonafide,
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I think it's a given that many of us have strong opinions about the music we like and dislike, and yes we have the "right" to state those opinions. Stating them does not make them "fact". It doesn't mean we are "telling anybody what to do." When I give opinions about music it is a statement of my own artistic vision, period. And I expect others to have different ones as do most people - I hope! No "hatred" of other people is implied, as is the case with genuine bigotry. (like racism, etc.)
As for why some people consider those who work with electronic instruments not to be "real" musicians, I think (as several people have stated) that a musician who's put years of dedication into their craft and knows how satisfying that is, is saddened when it becomes so "easy" to create so-called "music" with electronics. Personally I feel like the person who takes shortcuts is missing out on a lot. If they don't agree and they are having fun, that's OK. And of course there are a lot of folks out there who ARE "real musicians" who still enjoy working with loops, electronics, etc. They work just as hard at it as I've worked at playing the guitar, and that's cool, even though I might not personally like it. I think it's the fact that it's easy to abuse technology that makes people sometimes speak out loudly about the dangers of it.
I really think most people here are speaking their minds out of love, not hatred. I know I am. Luckily, there is room for everybody's vision, so nobody really gets dissed, right?
--Lee
P.S. The Beatles DID use loops and samples. In fact "Tomorrow Never Knows" is widely credited as being the first song to do so. I love that song, but I'd have been seriously bummed if the Beatles had done every song that way on every album from then on. They had fun experimenting but ultimately they returned to what they were best at, and made it even better.
I think it is a serious mistake to label electronic music as "today" and traditional instruments as "regressive". Whatever makes you happy is cool.
This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 08-07-2001 at 04:59 PM
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#2467 - 08/07/01 06:53 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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-
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**** KORN RULEZ!!! ****
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#2468 - 08/07/01 07:32 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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KHAN
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>>>Do we have the right to 'Gauge' what makes a 'real' musician or not.
I have the right to determine what I consider to be a musician,
>>>A 'Sampler' is an instrument. (Definition of Instrument: A device used to produce music)
Yes it is. And if you sit behind a keyboard and and play music with it, you are a musician.
>>>Too much of the feeling on this forum lately is that if some person creates a whole album out of sampled loops and electronic instruments, he/she is less of a musician. Why?
I've noticed a lot of sample/loop based composers are very touchy about how they are perceived by those who play traditional instruments(piano, guitar etc.) Why?
>>>If Samplers and drum machines had been available in the 50's, You can bet the Beatles would have used them in the 60's. I wonder what your opinions would be today?
They would have used them to add to they're music, not replace it.
>>>Since we are creating music with electronic instruments, why must we be di-gressing somehow? I doubt that's what our children will think in 10 years.
My feeling is that sample/loop/sequenced music lacks human feel and and is usually missing the nuances that make music interesting to me. But I digress.
>>>So when are you 'cool' and 'real'. Perhaps if you use 50% organic instruments and 50% electronic you are now classified as a musician. Or is it 20%-80%? Or 30%-70%? I don't know.
Cool is undefinable. As for real. One is real if they put everything that they are into their music no matter what genre.
>>>>(Definition of Bigot:A person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
Sounds like a perfect description of Archie Bunker.
>>>Isn't that all this is, Bigotry?
No.
>>>There are a scant few on this board who always seem to find a something positive an genuine.
Long live Dan South!
>>>>So many people claim to dislike prejudices and yet post after post show them railing someone because they don't fit into thier 'pre-set' parameters or beliefs of what an 'artist' or 'musician' is.
I don't see a lot of people "railing" here, but everyone here does tend to freely give their opinions. And that's how it should be.
>>>Is Robert Fripp a better Guitarest than Tom Petty? (insert opinion here)
I would consider that an Axiom.
>>>Is Terry Brown a better producer than Babyface? (insert opinion here)
I don't know, they've both done good work.
>>>Is Niel Pert a better drummer than Charlie Watts? (insert opinion here)
Technically. Abso-fuckin-lutely. However, I know alot of people *(Lee)* who love Charlie as a drummer, and that is very cool because there is room for everyone.
>>>Let the flames come, flames come out hate. I have posted other remarks along the same lines and it always gets people flipping and flapping. Somehow anything other than what you 'deem' is good, proper and real is insuperior and a sellout, and should be dis-credited.
You seem to be doing a pretty good job of flaming here(or is it just "venting" when you do it because you are "so persecuted"?
.
>>>> There is already so much goddamn hate and pain and suffering, why add to it?
Yeah, why did you?
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KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent)
http://www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com
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#2469 - 08/07/01 07:33 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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WFTurner
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>>(Definition of Bigot:A person obstinately or
intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions
and prejudices<<
From my somewhat dated (15yrs plus) dictionary:
bigot: One whose attitude or behavior expresses intolerance,
as because of race, religion, politics, etc
Specifically, in my times, intolerance of race and religion
fits my personal definition of a bigot. Politics I could
give two shits about. The above quoted definition seems a bit
vague, perhaps it's a new politically correct version. If so
then hell we're all bigots over alot more than the subject of
this thread.
Technology is throwing alot at us in the musical field and
people don't like big changes and it's gonna take time to see
where we all land and there's gonna be lots of different opinions.
Coming out of the gate swingin bigotry and hatred ain't gonna
help towards making any sense of it all.
As far as my stance on technology, samples and loops, there's a bunch of people out there making "real" and wonderful music with
this stuff. Likewise, there's a whole bunch
of people out there that ain't. In view of
my life experience, they're close to not being musicians, writers nor composers.
Just an opinion. not bigotry.
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William F. Turner
Songwriter
turnermusic
This message has been edited by WFTurner on 08-07-2001 at 05:47 PM
_________________________
William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it.
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#2470 - 08/07/01 07:39 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Lee Flier
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KHAN RULEZ!!!!!
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#2471 - 08/07/01 08:00 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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KHAN
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
KHAN RULEZ!!!!!
OK, I'll play.
***********************The official KHAN RULEZ (2001)*************************
1. The use of loops is now considered a felony. Violaters will be prosecuted.
2. Drum machines are inherently evil and must be destoyed immediately.
3. Samplers are allowed as long as they are played by a qualified "REAL MUSICIAN".
4. Sequencers are not an adequate replacement for human feel and must be avoided at all costs.
5. MTV must immediately remove the letter "M" from their logo.
6. The music in all Britney Spears videos must be replaced with Jethro Tull. But the video portion must remain intact and be put in heavy rotation.
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KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent)
http://www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com
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#2472 - 08/07/01 08:11 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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surfjunkie
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this conversation has been spread over dozens of threads for quite awhile, and i like hearing different opinions.
a drummer is playing music on a pearl drumkit.
suppose the drummer steps out from behind his (or her) kit, walks over to an mpc, and plays a beat on the pads in real time, using 16-bit samples of the kit he was just playing. still a musician? (no drummer jokes, please)
now say the same drummer plays the same beat on the mpc live to tape. musician?
add a click track to that, but still a "live" performance. where are we now?
now the click is the mpc, and we're recording the midi data into the sequencer at 96 parts per quarter note. is the machine in control now?
when we quantize the beat, is it still not musical?
we could do similar lists for sampled piano or modeled guitar amps.
i played saxes & flute in school, and i still play bass (upright & electric) and some guitar & kit. i also have an mpc and cubase. is it "easy" to create good "music" with electronics? not for me.
at least not yet.
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#2473 - 08/07/01 08:16 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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lwilliam
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Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 497
Loc: Canyon Country, CA, USA
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I'm sure a comparison could be made here of what the pen/pencil accountants of the 50's and 60's felt like when hordes of them were replaced with a computer spreadsheet program. "They haven't honed their craft", or "spent time studying accounting", and are doing it the "easy way", etc., etc.
A similar thing is happening with the DAW world. Are the guys without electrical engineering training "really" audio engineers?
Assuming for a moment that a sampler, by the definition provided above, IS a musical instrument, I personally feel that someone who "plays" a sampler by selecting various loops is NOT a musician, but definitely fits within the "music producer" category.
A musician (according to dictionary.com) is "One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music."
So does a "loop player" compose the music? No, he splices pre-composed "music" together
Does he conduct it: not in the traditional sense, but he does "manage" or "direct" it, so this might be a gray area
Does he perform it: not at all. Someone else has performed it and recorded it; he is replaying it
A producer also "manages" or "directs" the music; therefore, I consider the loop player more of a producer than a musician.
I'm sure others will agree or disagree, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...  
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Larry W.
_________________________
Larry W.
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#2474 - 08/07/01 08:26 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Rod S
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lwilliam:
I'm sure a comparison could be made here of what the pen/pencil accountants of the 50's and 60's felt like when hordes of them were replaced with a computer spreadsheet program. "They haven't honed their craft", or "spent time studying accounting", and are doing it the "easy way", etc., etc.
Huh??? I don't think so. Music involves creativity. Number crunching is number crunching (I'm not an acct but I've had to do a lot in the past). To reduce the process of making music to number crunching is absurd.
A similar thing is happening with the DAW world. Are the guys without electrical engineering training "really" audio engineers?
Again, electrical engineering involves thinking and creativity, but it is still in a lot of ways an exact science. You can qualify a good design of a servo system with mathematics. I'm still waiting to see someone prove mathematically what good music is supposed to be.
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#2475 - 08/07/01 08:30 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by wager47:
this conversation has been spread over dozens of threads for quite awhile, and i like hearing different opinions.
a drummer is playing music on a pearl drumkit.
suppose the drummer steps out from behind his (or her) kit, walks over to an mpc, and plays a beat on the pads in real time, using 16-bit samples of the kit he was just playing. still a musician?
Sure, the drummer is still a musician. But at that point so far as I'm concerned, the music itself has already lost something. And as you go down your list it continues to lose even more. By the time you quantise you've REALLY lost me, though, because at that point it's no longer what was played by a human.
However, the drummer is still a musician. Now, if he'd never played drums in his life but had only assembled sampled beats and quantised them, then I agree with the comment that he's more of an arranger, producer, possibly composer, but not a "musician" per se. Which is not really a put-down. And personally, I might like his composition and arrangement ideas but I would probably prefer to hear them PERFORMED by musicians.
--Lee
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#2476 - 08/07/01 08:30 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Steve LeBlanc
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Lee and I almost never agree...I really hate her for that! The Fact that she thinks Keith Richards and Charlie Watts are important musical figures proves the point that her opinions on music are completely worthless.
That's why I read just about everything she posts (all 10 paragraphs  ), to learn from her worthless opinions.
Bonafide Dude, smoke a joint and relax...If you really look at all the posts here as a whole...it's very difficult to find anyone saying Electronic Musicians aren't real or whatever.
I did sample based music to put food on my table for a number of years...I respect the ability to do this effectively.
I think the music suffers regardless...but that is my opinion...it would be easy to find 10 people who would immediately agree with you on this point.
Next topic please?
This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 08-07-2001 at 06:32 PM
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#2477 - 08/07/01 08:32 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Master Zap
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Registered: 12/22/00
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Okay let me counter with the Zap rules:
ZAP RULES:
0. Distorted electric guitars are Evil and should be forbidden.
1. Anything not programmed is Bad
2. If each bar of a beat is not digitally bit-identical to the previous bar, it's broken.
3. People who hit things with sticks are annoying, but can be sampled.
4. Anyone who plays something "live" can - thank goodness - be sampled and fixed later
5. "Real" instruments are for feebs who do not have a degree in electronic engineering, have built their own mixer, written their own sequencing software, or drum synthesizer.
And so on. (With a huge amount of tounge stuck in cheek, I might add)
/Z
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#2478 - 08/07/01 08:36 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Rod S
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I think it's a given that many of us have strong opinions about the music we like and dislike, and yes we have the "right" to state those opinions. Stating them does not make them "fact". It doesn't mean we are "telling anybody what to do." When I give opinions about music it is a statement of my own artistic vision, period. And I expect others to have different ones as do most people - I hope! No "hatred" of other people is implied, as is the case with genuine bigotry. (like racism, etc.)
As usual, Lee is insightful and puts things in prespective.
To say being opinionated is equivalent to being a bigot is absurd. There's definitely people with strong opinions here. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't agree, and sometimes I'm thinking, "what the hell is this person thinking?" But it's all good. Keep an open mind to people's opinions, whether you agree with them immediately or not.
As far as the subject of what's a musician, everyone has their own opinions. To have an opinion about this matter is not wrong; to call someone a bigot for having a (extreme) opinion in this matter is, IMHO.
I dislike certain styles of music. You could maybe say I hate them. That doesn't make me a bigot. What ever floats your boat.
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#2479 - 08/07/01 09:37 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Bonafide
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Registered: 06/18/01
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So my point was validiated in a matter of minutes.
I only posed the question of bigotry and stated the defintion as taken from the Websters dictionary.
I never once mentioned anything about anyones opinion. That is what a forum board is for.SHARING OPINIONS.
I never once called anybody a bigot but simply asked if what happens here is bigotry.
If someone goes out of thier way to dis-credit an artist (any genre) out of sheer opinion, that is bigotry in it's proper definition, and that is just what happens. Not just opinions but flat out dis-credit.
Some folks have more to input than negative criticism and some don't. I didn't name anybody nor point my finger at any one person, Why is it that the majority of responses are in defense? Nobody likes it, that was my point.
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#2480 - 08/07/01 10:05 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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surfjunkie
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If someone goes out of thier way to dis-credit an artist (any genre) out of sheer opinion, that is bigotry in it's proper definition, and that is just what happens. Not just opinions but flat out dis-credit.
Some folks have more to input than negative criticism and some don't.
there was a great thread awhile back about criticism . most people (that posted) seemed to think that criticism is only opinion, whether negative or positive. given that, bigotry could also be called opinion. especially in forums like this.
i don't think anyone who posted here is a bigot, even the extremeLee opinionated. even if they are, it's irrelevant.
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#2481 - 08/07/01 10:26 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Tedster
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Is Robert Fripp a better Guitarist than Tom Petty? (insert opinion here)
Is Terry Brown a better producer than Babyface? (insert opinion here)
Is Neil Peart a better drummer than Charlie Watts? (insert opinion here
Will the Riddler stew the Dynamic Duo in their own juices?
Will Alfred return to stately Wayne Manor in time to read Batgirl's message?
Will Commissioner Gordon get his laundry back?
Who's a better painter, Picasso or Rembrandt?
Who's a better painter, Monet or Van Gogh?
Who's a better writer, Faulkner or Dickens?
Does one have to read to be considered a musician?
Does one have to play classical music to be considered a musician?
Here's another type of snobbery, one we thought had long gone, but, believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there, still to this day, who believe that people who play rock are not musicians, whether they be Yngwie or Korn. In order to be a musician (according to these folks), one must have studied classical music at a conservatory and play first chair oboe in the New York Philharmonic. True music to these folks consists of classical, show tunes, etc., and comes off a page printed with little black dots. Nothing else qualifies. They'd be equally baffled by Fripp or Petty, although they may take vague pleasure in Fripp.
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#2482 - 08/07/01 11:15 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by Bonafide:
So my point was validiated in a matter of minutes.
I only posed the question of bigotry and stated the defintion as taken from the Websters dictionary.
I never once called anybody a bigot but simply asked if what happens here is bigotry.
I think you worded it a little more strongly than that. You asked it as if it were a foregone conclusion: "Isn't what happens here bigotry?"
And why would you ask the question if you really didn't think anybody was doing that?
I didn't name anybody nor point my finger at any one person, Why is it that the majority of responses are in defense? Nobody likes it, that was my point.
I think most of us have made it clear in this thread that we DO like it - that we respect each other and gain something from reading each other's posts even though we may not agree with each other or may diss each other's favorite bands, genres or whatever. If you think we're being "defensive" it's only because we are obviously not of the same opinion you are, and since you DIDN'T name any names we honestly just can't figure out who or what the hell you're talking about!
--Lee
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#2484 - 08/07/01 11:27 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Steve LeBlanc
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Why is it that the majority of responses are in defense?
I thought I was being Jolly and Sarcastic...I'm often apologetic but rarely defensive.
yeah rightheh
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#2485 - 08/07/01 11:50 PM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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d gauss
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<>
all it takes are the balls to say that you are a musician. after that, others will debate (possibly on internet forums) as to whether you are a GOOD or BAD musician....
same goes for ACTOR, WRITER, and LOVER....
-d. gauss
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#2486 - 08/08/01 12:07 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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halljams
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The way to tell the difference between a musician and a person playing with music technology is by listening to the output.
If you can't tell the differnce; then you are definatley not a musician.
Musicians come in all sorts of varying degrees obviously.
My experience is that the higher level of musician you become,(and i don't just mean technically, I mean your understanding of what music is and does) then the more empathy and patience you will have for the enthusiastic beginner and lower level players.
As far as DJ's and people who peice music together, but don't play at least one instrument well, they are NOT musicians. I find that their attitudes alone often prove this point clearly enough.
There is a change that happens in a person when they spend and dedicate their life to learning an instrument. There is a fullfillment an instrumentalist feels that someone who has never worked for it will never be able to imagine.
The process of learning an instrument to a high level is the process of becoming a musician.
If you don't go through it ,you are not a musician.
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#2487 - 08/08/01 12:17 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Steve LeBlanc
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There is a change that happens in a person when they spend and dedicate their life to learning an instrument. There is a fullfillment an instrumentalist feels that someone who has never worked for it will never be able to imagine.
The process of learning an instrument to a high level is the process of becoming a musician.
If you don't go through it ,you are not a musician.
Well, hey, I totally agree with this opinion...doesn't prove halljams is right...but I do agree with it.
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#2488 - 08/08/01 12:27 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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-
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I think maybe what Bonafide is getting at is, sometimes the opinions around here have gotten *so* strong lately that some people might be feeling uncomfortable by whatever tools they use to make music.
For example, in the first post of this thread , wager47 remarks, "if you hate hiphop, samplers, or non-live drummers, don't say anything." What?!?!? S/he (?) shouldn't have to *defend* asking a legitimate question about a drum machine.
In the passion/soul thread Master Zap asks, "I wanted a synthetic drum sound ... Is there something WRONG with wanting that, I wonder!?" as well as "I dunno, am I the only one ... who actually do not like the sound of real drums, or a real drummer?"
Having worked with both electronic and acoustic music, I've been on both sides of the fence and I can see musical validity with either approach. (I play a couple instruments *and* I've sequenced lots of stuff, and even produced some techno.)
Now, I'll mention what I *currently* like or desire in my own productions (acoustic-y stuff), but hopefully I haven't said it in a way that makes the electronic guys uncomfortable or not want to hang out here.
However, if I write a song where I feel like only a drum machine or some sequenced part will give me the kind of vibe I want, I'm not going to avoid using it simply because I might have some religious aversion to it. My philosophy is to use the best tool for the job, and sometimes a song might not call out for a real drummer. Sometimes it might not call out for drums at all. There are also times when it doesn't call out for electronic drums or samples, too.
Now, what I'd *really* like to hear is a musical collaboration between Lee and Master Zap -- preferably one where Lee does all the sequenced parts and Master Zap tracks all the live instruments... I could imagine it being the Aerosmith/Run DMC collaboration of the musicplayer.com forums...
This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-07-2001 at 10:42 PM
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#2489 - 08/08/01 12:35 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Tedster
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 5933
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Originally posted by halljams:
My experience is that the higher level of musician you become,(and i don't just mean technically, I mean your understanding of what music is and does) then the more empathy and patience you will have for the enthusiastic beginner and lower level players.
The process of learning an instrument to a high level is the process of becoming a musician.
If you don't go through it ,you are not a musician.
(Shaolin Monk voice):
"Ahhh, you have learned well..."
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#2490 - 08/08/01 12:53 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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surfjunkie
Platinum Member
Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 1902
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i think Zap was perhaps being slightly sarcastic, and i know i was (he-he).
i'm sure if i was new(er) around here, i might think people are punishing those who think differently, but i know now that opinions are expressed freely here. everything should be read with an "i think" preceeding.
the opinions of others might change my own, but i'll value having heard another view if they don't.
as for the Zap/Lee proposal, i pity the producer (kidding).
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#2491 - 08/08/01 12:58 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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halljams
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2689
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Tedster,
I loved that show!
Aside..
I used to be in a band called P."F".D.
Only short for "Personal Funk Device"
This message has been edited by halljams on 08-07-2001 at 11:04 PM
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#2492 - 08/08/01 01:22 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Tedster
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 09/21/00
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Hey, Halljams...see from your profile you're in Whitehorse. I was up that way a few years ago...heading from Anchorage to Haines, AK. Only got as far as Haines Junction in the good ol' Yukon, though, before heading south into BC. Beautiful country up there!
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#2493 - 08/08/01 01:57 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Lee Flier
10k Club
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 15398
Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by popmusic:
I think maybe what Bonafide is getting at is, sometimes the opinions around here have gotten *so* strong lately that some people might be feeling uncomfortable by whatever tools they use to make music.
???? If someone's opinion on an Internet forum makes you feel that uncomfortable about the tools you're using, I'm not real sure what to say to that. There is NO WAY anybody could make me feel uncomfortable about the tools I use and don't use - and trust me, people have tried. People on here have told people like me that I'm "old", I'm "retro", I've been "left behind and am not with the times", I'm "closed minded", take your pick. None of which has made me run out and buy a sampler , nor be apologetic about the way I do things.
For example, in the first post of this thread , wager47 remarks, "if you hate hiphop, samplers, or non-live drummers, don't say anything." What?!?!? S/he (?) shouldn't have to *defend* asking a legitimate question about a drum machine.
You're right. But - he DOESN'T have to "defend" it. If he likes drum machines why should he care what I or anyone else think of them?
In the passion/soul thread Master Zap asks, "I wanted a synthetic drum sound ... Is there something WRONG with wanting that, I wonder!?" as well as "I dunno, am I the only one ... who actually do not like the sound of real drums, or a real drummer?"
Well I'm glad he said that, because he didn't actually sound defensive, he sounded like a guy who's just telling us what he loves. I got a lot outta that post, even though, once again, it is not going to make me go out and start using drum machines. Master Zap's been on these forums for quite awhile and I don't see him exactly getting scared off by any anti-drum-machine sentiments either!
However, if I write a song where I feel like only a drum machine or some sequenced part will give me the kind of vibe I want, I'm not going to avoid using it simply because I might have some religious aversion to it.
Well apparently you don't understand: I don't avoid it for that reason, either. It's just that I can say with complete confidence that I will never, ever write a song where the vibe calls out for a drum machine or sequenced part. Unless maybe it's a joke, or a deliberate irony. It just ain't even in my vocabulary. I have never liked listening to anything of that ilk so I certainly don't have any desire to write or play anything like that.
Now, what I'd *really* like to hear is a musical collaboration between Lee and Master Zap -- preferably one where Lee does all the sequenced parts and Master Zap tracks all the live instruments...
Yeah some people WOULD think that was a good idea, but I think that would really undermine BOTH my "vision" and Zap's. Some people would LIKE the results of such a collaboration, I don't doubt... but that's not really the point. I totally respect the fact that Zap is in another universe from me and that he loves it as much as I love mine. I don't think we need to collaborate just to "prove" that we can live in each other's universes - obviously neither one of us CARES to, and that commitment is part of what makes each of our work what it is.
--Lee
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#2494 - 08/08/01 02:02 AM
Re: What does it take to be considered a musician?
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Bonafide
Senior Member
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 246
Loc: Santa Barbara, Ca.
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
If you think we're being "defensive" it's only because we are obviously not of the same opinion you are, and since you DIDN'T name any names we honestly just can't figure out who or what the hell you're talking about! --Lee
Hey Lee,
I don't 'think' anything about anyone, just noting the obvious. Im sorry that YOU can't figure out what I'm saying though other folks seem to. I notice that you say 'we' often. Who is'We'?
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