#1964819 - 07/01/08 03:25 AM
Long Scale / Short Scale
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Rampdog
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What is the advantage or difference in sound between a short scale bass to a long scale... My bass is a beast... very long neck and a major journey between frets... I remember my old bass player had an old SG short scale bass but I never played it and never knew the difference...
Throw the dog a bone with some enlightning info...
Billy
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#1964826 - 07/01/08 04:06 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Rampdog]
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Davo-London
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I'm guessing Rampdog that you are a guitarist?
Long scale historically meant 34" (ie Leo Fender selected that scale).
Short scale generally means around 30-32".
Extra long scale starts at 36".
So, I'm guessing your bass is 34". The SG called the EB series was sold in both 30.5" and 34.5" guises. I'm guessing your bassist had the 30.5" scale.
Fender also make short scale 30" basses under the names Bronco, Musicmaster and Mustang.
Alembic make 30 3/4", 32" and 34" scales, but famously Stanley Clarke uses a 30 3/4" scale length.
These days you can have any scale you want and fanned frets as well.
Hope this helps.
Davo
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#1964842 - 07/01/08 04:54 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Davo-London]
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dave251
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The scale length determines the harmonic structure of the notes. A shorter scale emphasizes the FUNDAMENTAL, at the sacrifice of intonation accuracey, while the longer scales will gain upper harmonics( a bit more "cutting" tone )....and a more accurate "tonal" center, if you will.
A larger diameter string on a shorter scale will have a tendancy to pull sharp during the attack transient, and not sustain on pitch as accurately as a higher tension string will. That's the disadvantage of a shorter scale. While emphasizing the fundamental...the pitch just isn't as solid sounding.
At least that's been my experience. Well designed pickup systems can help this situation a lot, though.
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#1964844 - 07/01/08 04:57 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Davo-London]
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Phil W
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Hey Ramp!
Great to see you over on this side of the fence!
I'll let someone more knowledgeable than me answer your question about the difference in sound between long and short scale instruments. Davo gave you a neat overview of the distinctions.
I myself never realised that my acoustic bass guitar (abg) was short-scale (32") until I measured it - it is very easy to play. I am used to 34" scale basses.
If it sounds good, it don't matter how long it is!
One thing that helps to play in lower positions on a longer scale length is to angle your fingers towards the fret rather than trying to fret perpendicular to the edge of the fingerboard. That's using the one finger per fret model. A second option is to pivot the thumb a la Carol King.
[edit]Oops! That should read Carol Kaye! Thanks Tom! [/edit]
A third option is to use more like a double bass fingering where the hand position covers only three frets in the lowest positions.
Edited by Phil W (07/02/08 02:56 AM)
Edit Reason: Carol King didn't play bass to my knowledge
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#1964846 - 07/01/08 05:00 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Phil W
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OK, while I was posting dave251 gave you the science.
That's my experience too, shorter scale - more emphasis on the fundamental - sometimes a cool 'muddy' tone is available.
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#1964864 - 07/01/08 05:36 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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b5pilot
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I thought short was 30, medium was 32 and long was 34 with extra long starting at 35. Dave is correct with his explanation.
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#1964867 - 07/01/08 05:49 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: b5pilot]
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Phil W
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I think this 18" scale sounds great too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashbory_bass
I do have serious gas for an Ashbory!
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#1964874 - 07/01/08 05:55 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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The Pot
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Have you ever played one of those? Looks awkward to me.
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#1964876 - 07/01/08 05:58 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: The Pot]
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Phil W
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No.
I would take the trouble to practise it though as I've enjoyed listening to the sound of them and I'd dig the portability.
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#1964889 - 07/01/08 06:22 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Rocky MacDougall
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I think the original concept for a short scale electric bass was several reasons.
1. Easier transition for guitar players
2. Easier playing for young players
3. Easier for adults with small hands
Rocky
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#1964892 - 07/01/08 06:25 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Rocky MacDougall]
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Phil W
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My nephew was finding the long scale kind of hard (though I know some of Jeremy's young students manage fine) so my brother in law just bought him an Epiphone Viola bass (short-scale) as he's into the Beatles anyway. Now he's playing the thing every day (making the transition from bassoon! - and making fast progress) so short scales can be cool.
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#1964896 - 07/01/08 06:31 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Rampdog]
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rizzo9247
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My first bass was an Ibanez GAXB150, I believe it had a 32" scale. I then went to a 34", then a 35". I feel most comfortable on the 34".
... very long neck and a major journey between frets...
I say the oppostite when I pick up the guitar, "Why are these frets so darn close to each other!" 
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#1964898 - 07/01/08 06:37 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Rampdog
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Thanks all.... Great explanations..... Yes I am a guitar player and I only play the bass to lay a track down in my DAW... I finally put some flat wounds on it so it isn't tearin' up my fingers but it is a journey between frets... I may have to look for a short scale... Not too worried about tone as I just model it through my interface... I just feel like I'm fighting it because of the long frets...
Thanks again all
Billy
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#1964905 - 07/01/08 07:01 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: thebassdude]
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Phil W
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Yeah, me too - guitar seems way too tiny. That's why I enjoyed having the piccolo bass.
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#1964918 - 07/01/08 07:28 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Max Valentino
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I have been quite intrigued by "shorter" scale basses of late....my main bass is a Turner Ren, fretted 34" scale. I am quite comfortable with that. But, my "2nd" is a Turner Ren fretless 35" scale....and I don't "feel" as comfy there. I have a cheap, beater ABG lying around the house which is 32" scale...very comfy and easy to play. Recently I tried out a Rob Allen Mouse (30" scale...fun!) and a Gretsch Electro-something (the expensive one...) with a 32" which I really liked. I spoke with Rick Turner some time back about this (and he built Stanley Clarke's original 32" Alembics), and he is big proponent of the shorter scale basses.....in fact one of the finest, and easiest playing basses I have ever tried is his Model 1....(I just cannot swing the hefty pricetag they carry); with careful design, construction and electronics, the "problems" of older short scale basses (muddy tone, intonation, focus) can be overcome, and some of the newer short and medium scale basses demonstrate this. I am considering picking up a good shorter scale bass...The Rob Allen Mouse is REALLY nice. While we're sorta on the subject....anyone ever used a baritone gtr to fill the bass spot (a'la Jack Bruce...Bill Laswell and others)? max
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#1964926 - 07/01/08 07:46 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Max Valentino]
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cassius
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So that's called an Ashbory bass? I had no idea. I played one in a music store once and it wasn't really my thing, but I can see how they might appeal to some people.
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#1964971 - 07/01/08 09:24 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: dave251]
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Tater Nuts
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The scale length determines the harmonic structure of the notes. A shorter scale emphasizes the FUNDAMENTAL, at the sacrifice of intonation accuracey, while the longer scales will gain upper harmonics( a bit more "cutting" tone )....and a more accurate "tonal" center, if you will.
That pretty much hits it.
Personally I like a lot of attack and definition so I tend to favor 34"+ scale basses. My main instrument has been a 35" scale for years now (Lull M5 previously and now my Alembic 5). Both had/have wonderful sounding low B strings - something that I have found is few and far between on 34" scale 5 strings. The Musicman Stingray 5 being one of the big exceptions to that.
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#1964981 - 07/01/08 09:59 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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yourlord
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guitar feels like a toy when i try to play it.. just way too small..
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#1965106 - 07/01/08 02:21 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: yourlord]
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cassius
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Can you get extended necks from companies like Warmoth, that would extend the scale of your bass guitar? Or would this be too much strain?
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#1965111 - 07/01/08 02:30 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: dave251]
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C. Alexander C.
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The scale length determines the harmonic structure of the notes. A shorter scale emphasizes the FUNDAMENTAL
As the scale shortens vs the wavelength of the note the lower frequency energy shifts from the fundamental to the 2nd harmonic, then the 3rd and so on. Compare a concert grand piano to an upright piano. This can be misheard as an increase in fundamental due to many people mistaking the 2nd harmonic for the fundamental.
Alex
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#1965149 - 07/01/08 03:59 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Tom Capasso
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Sometimes the E string just doesn't vibrate well when open (or low F) on a short scale (30.5"). This observation is from experience with my EB3. The reason that Dingwalls are so cool to play is that the open string length is set to be the best length for that frequency.
Generally short scale basses are thinner all around and can be fun to play.
There is another part to this question though. Depending on how the bass is made, how the body is cut, where the bass hangs on you (or sits on your leg when sitting), you can feel like reaching the notes is more or less comfortable. I've played 34" basses that seemed too big, and the aforementioned Dingwall J 4 that was a dream. There's a bit of engineering involved in getting everything to sit optimally - which isn't necessarily the same for you as it is for me.
A second option is to pivot the thumb a la Carol King.
I'm assuming you meant Carol Kaye. Carol King wasn't bad with bass parts, but I think she always used a piano.
Tom
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#1965161 - 07/01/08 04:31 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: cassius]
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Rocky MacDougall
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Can you get extended necks from companies like Warmoth, that would extend the scale of your bass guitar? Or would this be too much strain?
If I understand your question. Making a standard 34" scale neck longer can only be accomplished by having the neck pocket less deep. By doing that, you could have a 35" scale, but your fret spacing would be incorrect. You could do that on a fretless but the strain at the attaching screws would be a concern.
Rocky
Edited by Rocky MacDougall (07/01/08 05:38 PM)
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#1965171 - 07/01/08 04:54 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Rocky MacDougall]
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b5pilot
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+1, Rocky.
On the subject of scale lengths. My ideal bass would be a 5-string bass with a 32" scale - that would be super playable to me. Unfortunately, I know the B string would not fare too well. Oh well. Those Asbury bases are cute aren't they. I remember trying one when they first came out in the 80's, I believe it was. They are cool to play with with those rubberband strings!
Anybody remember a line of 3/4 length p-basses that came out. I don't think they were Fender, I think they were Cort. Very cute.
Edited by b5pilot (07/01/08 04:58 PM)
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#1965207 - 07/01/08 07:11 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: b5pilot]
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mattulator
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It's like Bump says.
My first 2 fives were 34" and I never did like the B string regardless of the guage. Kinda muddy. 35" cured my ills.
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#1965261 - 07/02/08 02:57 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Tom Capasso]
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Phil W
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A second option is to pivot the thumb a la Carol King. I'm assuming you meant Carol Kaye. Carol King wasn't bad with bass parts, but I think she always used a piano. Tom
Oops! I have been listening to a lot of Carol King lately. I thought something looked wrong with that post!
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#1965452 - 07/02/08 11:02 AM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Phil W]
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Eric Van Buren
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The Ric 4003 is 33.25", a little shy of the 34" standard but would probably not be considered "short scale" by most. I do find mine to be a lot more comfortable than 34" scale basses, but at this point that may be more a matter of familiarity. I played someone's 34" scale bass again last Monday and it felt completely natural. And only the standard 4 strings on my 4003, so no worries about a floppy B.
I also play guitar and mandolin (14.1" scale) and don't have a problem switching between them.
If a 34" scale bass feels like it's too much of a reach it just means you haven't practiced on it enough. While it is possible to get a short scale bass that is closer in scale to a guitar (24.75" to 25.5" for the most popular models), I think that's a bit of a crutch. And I don't mean that as an insult or to be rude.
Yes, playing the exact same riff on guitar and bass will feel different at first. After a while, though, you won't even have to think about making adjustments for larger (or smaller) scales. It becomes automatic.
For the purpose mentioned (self recording) there's really no harm going with a short scale bass. But what if you're at a jam and your buddies ask you to sit in on bass? After all, you've recorded bass in the studio, right? The only thing is, you didn't bring your short scale and all they have is a full scale. 
As far as transitioning from guitar to mandolin, consider the fact that in addition to dealing with a different scale you have to deal with strings tuned in 5ths.  All new scale patterns and chord shapes. Fun! But I'd rather have to put up with that than a mandolin that plays and feels like a guitar.
[A better example would be: Is it better to pick up and be able to play right away a banjo with a guitar neck, i.e. banjotar, than to learn how to play a standard banjo?]
That's just my opinion, though. There's nothing wrong with short scale basses. In fact the first bass I owned was a short scale Fender Musicmaster.
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#1965565 - 07/02/08 02:32 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Eric Van Buren]
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cassius
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The Ric 4003 is 33.25", a little shy of the 34" standard but would probably not be considered "short scale" by most. I do find mine to be a lot more comfortable than 34" scale basses, but at this point that may be more a matter of familiarity. I played someone's 34" scale bass again last Monday and it felt completely natural. And only the standard 4 strings on my 4003, so no worries about a floppy B.
It is my understanding that the very few Ric 5ers ever made were fairly inadequate, at least of the 4003 type. I think they set up the 4004 5er version so that some people really liked it; at least, many people convert their 4004s into 5ers. But I would be afraid to purchase a 4003 5er on the Bay or if they started building them again; maybe not if the scale was a bit longer.
Aren't 34'' J Bass 5ers pretty popular for the quality of the B string, or did I dream this?
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#1965585 - 07/02/08 03:37 PM
Re: Long Scale / Short Scale
[Re: Eric Van Buren]
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b5pilot
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Hey Ric my first was a musicmaster also. Cool! Nice little basses. Anyway, there is a comfort level due to physical limitations to be observed in regards to scale. I have a DeArmond with a 35" scale and although with my smallish hands I can play it There are certain things I find difficult to do like playing walking patterns 1 finger for 1 fret down at the lower positions. It can get pretty uncomfortable especially if your playing like that for a long period of time and no amount of practice will help there. My fingers are just a bit short. Someone with longer fingers would not have a problem. Maybe that's why I like 5-stringers. I can play all that 1st position stuff at the 5th position where it's more comfortable for my hand. For some a shorter scale Isn't really a crutch. It's a aide especially if one wants to play with some fluidity.
Now if I'm sitting in and a 35" or 36" scale bass is all there is then that's a different story and I will have to deal with it if I want to play.
Edited by b5pilot (07/02/08 04:04 PM)
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