#1964722 - 06/30/08 07:55 PM
Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
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Frank M
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Hi kids!
During my last lesson I had one of those "light bulb" moments. I'm gonna tell ya about it and wait and see if Jeremy shoots me down.
We're doing walking lines on the URB. I've paid attention to the teacher, read Ed's book 78 times!, and practiced, practiced, PRACTICED. I'm still not getting it. They don't sound natural. The sound like they are coming out of a poorly programmed "bass in a box". Forced, ungainly, crap.
So the teacher and I are talking intervals and he suggests that I stop thinking in terms of "notes" and more in terms of "intervals". To explain:
Fly Me to the Moon (C) - First eight measures (I'm hoping the tempo isn't important to my point - assume walking in quarters).
Am7, Dm7, G7, CM7(whole note)
FM7, Bm7b5, E7b9, Am7(dotted half) A7b9(quarter).
Now I'm thinking of it in these terms:
6m7, 2m7, 57, 1M7
4M7, 7m7b5, 37b9, 6m7 67b9
Now it all makes sense! Not to mention I know my fretboard well enough so that if the vox changes key on me, I don't get the "Wiley E. Coyote about to get flattened by another ill-conceived trap" look. I can instantly pull off the first line as follows without even thinking:
A-B-C-Db, D-C-B-A, G-F-E-D, C-C-D-E
F-G-A-Bb, B-A-G-F, E-D-C-B, A---C-C(8ma) (which resloves to the 2 with a scalar approach).
Note that I am STILL studying my chords and scales. I may not be able to instantly puke up the 6th interval of F#, but I can find it on the fret board. Once I fret it, I know what note I'm on (consequently, it's Eb) I'm hoping from a music standpoint that this isn't the equivelent of using (gasp) Tabs.
Don't keep me waiting, J-Dog!
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Respectfully, Frank M They have to keep me. I own the domain name. The Columbia Jazz Trio
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#1964752 - 06/30/08 10:54 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Frank M]
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cassius
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Aid or cop out...? Aid!! Just be able to think about it both ways in case you have to switch for a tune you are unfamiliar with that could frustrate your numbers schema, like a tune you're sightreading that is very busy, features lots of substitutions, or in case the scale degrees just don't fall into place in your head as quickly as they should.
Better yet, though, why not integrate the schemas? Try to look at this problem both ways simultaneously. I guess I'd have to say that's how I do it and it feels pretty natural to me.
I had a similar realization a few years ago but it was revealed to me through studying the modes. Basically the same revelation, and a really pleasant feeling, isn't it? 
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#1964780 - 07/01/08 12:59 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: cassius]
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Max Valentino
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The Nashville Number System is basically just that. It is a very practical way of making quick charts for tunes, and because you "thinking" in terms of intervals as opposed to specific chords, it is instantly transposable. Also, once one has the "system" in mind, most simple tunes can be called out onthe fly (this happens to me a lot playing country--a genre I have had little exp in until the past couple of years...and I quite regularly have to "learn" tunes I have never even heard onstage...) by just reciting the changes (in the Nashville system each number is a measure..so a "call" of "eleven, fourteen, eleven, fourteen, fiftyone" would be a 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 4 5 1 progression.... get it?). Abbreviations are usually a "-" to indicate a minor interval, normal #'s and b's to indicate those sharped or faltted intervals in relation to the maj scale, and the usual numbers to denote extentions--tho those are usually written as a fraction to the side of the interval number. Split bars are written together and underlined, and rhythmic notations (walks,tutti unisons and such ) are written as traditional notation. So your "fly me to the Moon" would be ( and note here since it is jazz and everything is basically derived from dom7 chords..I don't indicate the "7" in each chord---kinda redundant): 6- 2- 5 1(triangle and "7" for Maj 7) 4 (ditto) 7-b5 3b9 6- 6b9. Pretty simple, eh? In this manner one can "notate" the entire arrangement to a song on a single sheet of paper (I often get 2 or 3 tunes on a single sheet). quick, efficient, portable...and instantly transposable---doesn't matter what key the singer is comfortable in. No it is NOT cheating...in some ways it is a more practical method to get the neccessary info across/into a players' mind. I have become quite adept at doing number charts...tho I still use standard notation to indicate rhythmic phrases, signature licks and melodic phrases and such. Max
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#1964786 - 07/01/08 01:50 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Max Valentino]
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GeoffB
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I've always looked at chording in *something* of that way, although not that.
I'd never heard or seen that system before I came on these boards, BUT, I've always looked at chord playing as a visual pattern relative to the root fret; i.e. if I were playing a number going C, Am, F & G, then I knew I could play that pattern (with some inversions,) on the G fret or the D fret.
Since about 80% of standard music conforms to about 6 sets of patterns, or near them, I found that this helped a lot.
G.
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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix
Frank M:Back in the day you could have a trio with two people.
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#1964798 - 07/01/08 03:28 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: GeoffB]
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Phil W
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It's not cheating - it's musical analysis.
I worry though why you find 6m7, 2m7, 57, 1M7
easier to play than Am7, Dm7, G7, CM7. It's easier to remember and transpose but it shouldn't be easier to play is you know your fingerboard. You need to be fluent in both.
I use this kind of approach to remember songs.
If you know your theory though you can simplify it even more (as Max says).
6m7, 2m7, 57, 1M7
4M7, can be represented
as 6 2 5 1 4 - In any major key 6 is usually minor (or dominant) and 2 is usually minor (or dominant) so that's a lot less to remember.
Although your version is correct I think
6 2 5 1 4 (in C) 2 5 1 (in A minor) V (in D minor) more accurately represents the function of the chords but is maybe harder to remember than
vi ii V I IV vii III7 vi VI7
The only issue with chord number systems in jazz is the number of key changes and representing those without making the whole thing look kind of complex.
Regarding knowing the name of the 6th of F# versus finding it on the fingerboard (in 8 places) - I think both are important. I definitely favoured the former for a long time and did well without instant recall of the latter. I then took a lesson with Lynne Davis and she encouraged me to concentrate more on the former too - that instantly knowing the name of the b13 in the key of Db would help my playing. So I made some flashcards and learned a key a day - it took me 3 weeks. I'm not sure it made a huge difference but it wasn't hard to do anyway.
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#1964812 - 07/01/08 03:58 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Phil W]
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Paul K
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Most every time I figure out a new song, my chart is in the above Nashville notation. As noted above, it makes transposing into another key way easy. And I use roman numerals for the chord, regular numbers for the alterations, as Phil's post hinted at. The tunes I do rarely (Ha! Never!!!) have a key change, so that's not an issue for me. Crank up Band-in-a-Box, switch it to Nashville Notation, and go to town on it!
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#1964840 - 07/01/08 05:50 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Phil W]
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Frank M
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I worry though why you find 6m7, 2m7, 57, 1M7
easier to play than Am7, Dm7, G7, CM7. It's easier to remember and transpose but it shouldn't be easier to play is you know your fingerboard. You need to be fluent in both.
Not exactly true. All my current lead sheets (about 90% of our music) have the chords in letter form. Not a problem - I can both sight right and know my fretboard and chord construction very well. I can land an "A" in three place without even thinking.
The problem was being able to relate the chord changes with a walking bass line or using a walking line to solo or bridge. Walking down from a "6" to a "2" (6-5-4-3)for some wierd reason makes more sense to me than walking down from an "A" to a "D" (A- uhm - G-F- uhm - E).
The Roman numerals are not a problem. My teacher just used the standard Arabic numbers. I could do either/or - Roman numeral are more traditional (but Arabic numbers are faster to write).
It was sure a lot simpler back in the days when I was doing ii-V-I with all 5 chords!
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Respectfully, Frank M They have to keep me. I own the domain name. The Columbia Jazz Trio
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#1964851 - 07/01/08 06:15 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Frank M]
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Phil W
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Ah . . . OK . . . sorry for the assumption there Frank.
The trick is to think Am7 to D7 and ii to V at the same time.
Or rather not to think at all! 
I tend not to really think about the notes when I play walking bass (except in some practice situations). I focus on hitting chord tones on the 1 and 3 and anything that sounds good on the 2 and 4 leading into those chord tones. You don't have to stick to any scale.
When I'm really in the zone I don't think at all - but I get to that point rather less than I'd wish for.
Arabic numbers are cool: look at the Nashville number system Max described - what a great economy of expression and communication!
Edited by Phil W (07/01/08 06:15 AM)
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#1964860 - 07/01/08 06:28 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Max Valentino]
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b5pilot
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The Nashville Number System is basically just that.
I was just going to say that. That system has been used for years and is definately not a cop-out.
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#1964869 - 07/01/08 06:50 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: b5pilot]
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Frank M
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Oh, and that's "A" in three places on the URB. Octaves are a little more challenging and I tend to stay away from them until I gain a little more proficiency.
And, admittedly, my chord theory could be a little better than it is.
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Respectfully, Frank M They have to keep me. I own the domain name. The Columbia Jazz Trio
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#1964894 - 07/01/08 07:27 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: b5pilot]
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forceman
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The Nashville Number System is basically just that. I was just going to say that. That system has been used for years and is definately not a cop-out.
+1
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#1966744 - 07/06/08 01:41 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: forceman]
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jeremy c
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I generally "think" songs in Roman numerals.
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#1966760 - 07/06/08 03:21 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: jeremy c]
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Wally Malone
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I generally "think" songs in Roman numerals.
But can you sing in Latin?
Wally
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#1966766 - 07/06/08 03:38 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Wally Malone]
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DJR_Bos
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I generally "think" songs in Roman numerals. But can you sing in Latin? Wally
This can not be settled until this is answered.
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#1966806 - 07/06/08 06:08 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: DJR_Bos]
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Nicklab
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I saw this post before any of the responses went up. Immediately I thought of the Nashville numbers system, but didn't really have time to post. I'm glad to see someone stepped in with that. It really is an elegant form of notation. Especially if you need to transpose something for a different singer.
And the relationship between numbers and music is really a natural one. It's been stated in numerous studies that people who have an affinity for mathematics have a potentially increased aptitude for music.
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#1966811 - 07/06/08 06:18 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: DJR_Bos]
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Frank M
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I generally "think" songs in Roman numerals. But can you sing in Latin? Wally This can not be settled until this is answered.
I went to Catholic school for eight years back when LeFebre was bishop of Philadelphia (1965 to 1971 or so)- EVERYTHING was in Latin. Ah, yes, LeFebre and Rizzo (mayor). Makes me misty for the good-old days of the Inquisition.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Respectfully, Frank M They have to keep me. I own the domain name. The Columbia Jazz Trio
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#1966831 - 07/06/08 07:20 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Wally Malone]
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jeremy c
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I generally "think" songs in Roman numerals. But can you sing in Latin? Wally
Ave Maria
Gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Ave, ave dominus
Dominus tecum
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus
Et benedictus fructus ventris
Ventris tuae, Jesus.
Ave Maria
Ave Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Ora pro nobis
Ora, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Nunc et in hora mortis
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Ave Maria
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#1966883 - 07/06/08 11:19 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: jeremy c]
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Bumpcity
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When playing jazz lines you can get by 90% of the time by just knowing some simple rules that any good teacher can school you on. Once you know them you don't have to think. Thinking is the devil. Just play. Be relaxed and play.
Two biggest things? "I Got Rhythm" changes and basic jazz blues. After you know that everything else is just gravy. You can fake your way through anything.
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#1966913 - 07/07/08 03:26 AM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: Frank M]
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Griffinator
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No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
The Inquisition! What a SHOW!
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#1967199 - 07/07/08 05:30 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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DJR_Bos
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To agree with Jeremy I too, mostly, break it all down to roman numerals.
And I'll certainly second Bump's basic rules idea. Pehaps RBG takes it even a little further.
It's all about function within a key and the relationships between the various keys touched upon in a given tune. meaning, to me, it's more than ii7 V7 I. More like 'Predominant function' 'Dominant Function' 'Tonic Function'
And, to you guys at least as pedantic as me, NO. They are not all universally interchangeable. But a solid knowledge of harmonic function and substitutions will make understanding - AND HEARING - a lot of tunes a lot more intuitive.
Just use that power for good, OK? Just because you think playing Db 9b13 over the G7 in the chart is a theoretically cromulent choice does not mean that is what the soloist wants to be playing over*.
My two cents Clearly worth less.
- DJR
*hint - you're supposed to be figuring out what subs he's playing and adjusting. Not the other way round.
Edited by DJR_Bos (07/07/08 05:31 PM)
Edit Reason: me not type good
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#1967220 - 07/07/08 07:32 PM
Re: Chord Numbering - Aid or Cop-Out?
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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Frank M
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When playing jazz lines you can get by 90% of the time by just knowing some simple rules that any good teacher can school you on. Once you know them you don't have to think. Thinking is the devil. Just play. Be relaxed and play.
Two biggest things? "I Got Rhythm" changes and basic jazz blues. After you know that everything else is just gravy. You can fake your way through anything. I was going to quote Phil but Bump put it a little more colorfully.  What were the chords again? Am7 to Dm7? If you want to descend, just start descending. Whatever note you start your Am7 bar on, just start going down from there. Don't think. When the bar is coming to a close you can figure out how to "land" on the Dm7. It's like trying to draw a (longish) straight line, free hand. If you worry too much about making each little bit straight as you draw, it will come out wavy. If you put your pencil down on the starting point, concentrate your vision on the end point and then just draw, you'll have a much straighter line. (Try it!)
I guess now I'm going to contradict myself from what I said in the beginning of the thread. For soloing or bridging, that may work (my initial impetus of the thread). If I decide I want to walk within the head of the song, do I not need to pay some obsequious deference to the tonic quality of measure?
Walking down from (assume C, walking quarters) say the vi to the ii, it's pretty straight forward. Now walking down from the vi to the I, straight scalar, you end up into the next measure (CM) on the 2nd. Unless it is a C7M9, C7add9 or C9, it would sound odd. I could shuffle a pair of eighth notes and reslove to the I. I want to walk down (up would be so easy - chromatic all the way) because the vox and keys are arpeggio down and I think an ascending line there would sound cool.
RBG, your analogy is sound and makes perferct sense; I would run with that if the jazz I was playing were a little more ... modern, interprative. I don't think the trio is going Thelonius on me anytime soon.
Edited by Frank M (07/07/08 07:34 PM)
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Respectfully, Frank M They have to keep me. I own the domain name. The Columbia Jazz Trio
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