#1960852 - 06/20/08 08:24 PM
Speaker Specs Question
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Ed Stanley
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I have always just judged speakers by how they sound, I know, I know, crazy, but I also know that published manufacturer specs are generally incomplete and of little use without techie details (amplitude, SPL etc). That said, I'm shopping for passive speakers and the frequency ranges they lay claim to vary mainly in the low end of things. If one model states a low of 50Hz and another 60Hz does it really matter a lot for somebody (like me) who mainly plays EP and AP patches? I think I can probably get by without the outrageous low end (39Hz) of an Acme B-1 for example. Any informed comments or perspective?
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#1960858 - 06/20/08 08:35 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Ed Stanley]
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timwat
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From a non-technical and hardly informed perspective, the low end rating often implies more than simply a "floor cutoff". What I've anecdotally found is if, for example, one speaker is rated to 50hz (vs. another rated to 60hz), the one with the extended rating will also contribute a timbral foundation and weight that specs (in and of themselves) don't address.
In other words, your Rhodes simulation may have more depth and body in the mid and high octaves (less toy like) with the former than the latter. The flip side is also true - unless we're talking virtually identical components, crossovers, efficiency, etc. the latter may contribute upper harmonic content the former loses in comparison.
At the end of the day, about the only general truism I've settled on is that quality 3-way PA cabs beat quality 2-way PA cabs - but seldom come in comparable price and portability packages to 2-ways. Other than that, caveat emptor and audition first if possible.
I realize as I read this that it's probably not much help, Ed.
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#1960860 - 06/20/08 08:54 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: timwat]
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Ed Stanley
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Thanks, Tim. I agree that 3-way usually beats 2-way. My experience has also been that wood beats plastic and passive beats active. With the occasional exception.
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#1960939 - 06/21/08 05:39 AM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Ed Stanley]
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ITGITC?
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I have always just judged speakers by how they sound...
I think that there are people who still think it's OK to make a speaker decision primarily based on specs instead of listening.
And the interesting thing is that they all sound different. It's not difficult to compare one speaker system against another and hear differences that will help you make the choice.
Also, I've found that much of what you hear in the lowest frequencies is just garbage anyway. I'm not talking about the foundation needed to make a system sound good. I'm referring to the rumble from noises like microphone handling and such.
So far I have to agree that the best-sounding portable systems I've heard for live sound are 3-way designs... made with real wood.
Still, I haven't stopped searching for the Holy Grail - a 10 pound speaker that sounds like the Legends of Heaven Orchestra and will fit in the back of a Prius.
(If there's a rock and roll heaven well you know they've got a hell of a band.)
_________________________
"NEVER take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night." ................................ Is There Gas in the Car? 
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#1961927 - 06/23/08 04:11 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: ITGITC?]
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grockvt
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I agree here - 3 way passive wood is the way!
I'm listening to my B1s right now cranking out some old "Big Star" 70s grooves! These things, in their own way are as good as my JBL LSR4328s!
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#1961955 - 06/23/08 05:07 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: grockvt]
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SK
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3-way is best. You don't need too much bottom for piano patches, and I find 12" speakers about right for them. But a little extra bottom also adds a fuller, round sound to keys in mid and upper registers.
Of course, you probably know this. 
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#1961983 - 06/23/08 06:13 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: SK]
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Jazz+
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A tech told me that a 3 way design is not always better than a 2 way design since in theory both designs will cover the same frequency range. It really depends on the sound quality of the components used. Regarding plastic vs wood, again some plastic cabinet powered speakers, the EV SXa360 for example, will sound much better than many wood speaker cabinets, such as Barbettas, due to the internal components.
_________________________
Live: Roland FP4 (33 lbs)+ gig bag, 2 EV SXa-360 powered speakers (36 lbs each), WS 550 stand
Sold: Kawai ES4, Yamaha P250, P120, P90. RD300SX, Kurz PC2X, Bose PAS, Mackie SRM450s, JBL EON10s,
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#1961986 - 06/23/08 06:26 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Ed Stanley]
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Dave Bryce
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Disagree.
It's been my experience that most experts will tell you that active easily beats passive, actually....for many reasons. Crossover is usually cited, as is the huge variability of outboard amplifiers as far as power rating, damping factor and sonic characteristics, as opposed to having amp components spec'd and tuned to an exact system, not to mention active designs usually providing bi/triamplification as opposed to an outboard amp which typically powers the full range signal.
dB
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#1962134 - 06/24/08 06:22 AM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Dave Bryce]
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MikeT156
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Also, the application of your sound system of choice is a big factor. For just KB sounds, I'd say Ed is correct that the difference between a speaker rated at 50hz or 60hz won't make much of a difference. However, a PA system that has to cover everything, bass, drums, KB's, vocals is a different story.
For me, I need at least a low end of 50hz on my speaker cabinets to get tight, defined bass parts, as well as good, solid bass drum sounds out of my system. I use a small PA for my OMB act, and it has to cover a large portion of the sonic range that people can hear, without rumble or feedback. Bottom feeder equipment just doesn't cut it in PA applications. I agree with GAS and others about using wooden cabinets over plastic, they still sound better.
Mike T.
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Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Mk III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist. Lots of Amps, mixers, PA speakers!
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#1962163 - 06/24/08 07:52 AM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Dave Bryce]
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mate_stubb
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Disagree. It's been my experience that most experts will tell you that active easily beats passive, actually....for many reasons. Crossover is usually cited, as is the huge variability of outboard amplifiers as far as power rating, damping factor and sonic characteristics, as opposed to having amp components spec'd and tuned to an exact system, not to mention active designs usually providing bi/triamplification as opposed to an outboard amp which typically powers the full range signal. dB
Theoretically, a carefully tuned active system seems like it should be better than passive.
In the real world, this seems to be mainly true for massive Meyer Sound type speakers.
What we have for practical keyboard monitoring is a choice of 2 way active speakers in a wedge box, or passive 3 way boutique bass cabs. The other limitations of these designs end up overwhelming the theoretical advantages of active design.
- limited low end
- too aggressive dsp (noise gate on the JBL PRX)
etc.
I'm not really saying what I want to say very well. I was up until 2:00 am last night moving really heavy furniture and I'm pretty fuzzy.
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#1962356 - 06/24/08 03:45 PM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: mate_stubb]
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Dave Bryce
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Theoretically, a carefully tuned active system seems like it should be better than passive.
Better is so relative. 
I don't want the same thing out of my onstage monitoring that I do out of my studio monitoring. Onstage, I want a ton of headroom and a clear, strong signal. In that regard, I'd say passive boxes with a big ass outboard amp is a better way to go.
I do use combo amps live, which are basically active systems (I have both a Motion Sound KP200 and a Roland KC500), but they're all about the convenience. If I had the room on stage and in my car, I'd vaastly prefer to use my floor wedges and Crown amp.
IWhat we have for practical keyboard monitoring is a choice of 2 way active speakers in a wedge box, or passive 3 way boutique bass cabs. The other limitations of these designs end up overwhelming the theoretical advantages of active design.
I used passive three way TOA 380SE cabs for a while. Ended up really preferring passive two way floor wedges...but that was back in the day when I had a bigger car/more room on stage. 
Actually, for a few years, I used one of the three way TOA boxes sitting on it's road case behind me, and a TOA floor wedge in front...running the rig in stereo (left in front, right in back. Odd on paper, but it sounded really cool, actually...
dB
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#1962545 - 06/25/08 07:05 AM
Re: Speaker Specs Question
[Re: Dave Bryce]
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MikeT156
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Quote by db"
"Onstage, I want a ton of headroom and a clear, strong signal. In that regard, I'd say passive boxes with a big ass outboard amp is a better way to go."
For simplicity, I run the above scenario. Engineer types at a few speaker manufacturers have suggested using a bi-amped or tri-amped setup. For me, the fly in the ointment is how much power to put through the horn, how much to the tweeter, what cross over(s) to use, and where to set the cross frequencies so I don't blow something. Often times, the details can kill you. Then of course, it takes more time to setup.
Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Mk III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist. Lots of Amps, mixers, PA speakers!
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