#1959974 - 06/19/08 08:33 AM
verses to well known tunes
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Dave Horne
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I'm working through the verse for Someone To Watch Over Me again. It was used in the film of the same name (the music came first of course and was written in 1926). (Since this was written so long ago I can only hope delirium won't ... contribute to this thread.)
This verse could stand alone as a well written tune and yet Gershwin used it as a mere verse.
What verses do you guys play?
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#1959980 - 06/19/08 08:49 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Tusker
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Are you talking about the first 65 seconds of this clip ...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHgGsP1eOA
I think of it as a prologue. I agree it's quite beautiful in a stream of consciousness way. The first bit of On the street where you live appears to work similarly (although there is some dialog between it and the rest of the song).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xP_ycAYHhI
Jerry
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#1959998 - 06/19/08 09:26 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Tusker]
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ksoper
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Sadly I never learned it myself, but I always thought the verse to "Stardust" was just wonderful.
K.
Edited by ksoper (06/19/08 09:27 AM) Edit Reason: spelling
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#1960005 - 06/19/08 09:35 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: ksoper]
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jfhyde
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Yeah, Stardust is wonderful, I couldn't imagine playing that tune without the verse, even though I think of it as the intro.
How bout the intro to Over the Rainbow?
John
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#1960011 - 06/19/08 09:47 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Griffinator
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(Since this was written so long ago I can only hope delirium won't ... contribute to this thread.)
Quit being such an ass, Dave.
Anyway, we talking about this verse?
There’s a saying old, says that love is blind Still we’re often told, "seek and ye shall find" So I’m going to seek a certain lad I’ve had in mind
Looking everywhere, haven’t found him yet He’s the big affair I cannot forget Only man I ever think of with regret
I’d like to add his initial to my monogram Tell me, where is the shepherd for this lost lamb?
What do you find so compelling about this verse?
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#1960018 - 06/19/08 09:56 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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ksoper
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God, I love that verse. I used to work with a chick singer back in Atlantic City who could absolutely melt me with that verse. She'd get to "this lost lamb" and all you wanted to do was cradle her in the shepherd's crook of your arm and sweetly carry her back to the fold...
k.
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#1960020 - 06/19/08 09:57 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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iLaw
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Griffinator,
You're focusing on the lyric, I guess, but what I find compelling is the structure. Rather than simply being a common rubatoed 8-bar or 16-bar intro, it has an AAB form that, while it would never stand on its own, nonetheless sets up the chorus (which can stand on its own) perfectly.
Larry.
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#1960021 - 06/19/08 10:00 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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... and yet another anonymous poster. Why are so many so-called musicians afraid to use their real names. You'd think the more limelight the better .... but I digress.
Instead of writing there's an old saying, Ira wrote there's a saying old with quarter note emphasis on old since it's not a normal manner of speaking. Clever. Since this was the opening line to the verse it gets one's attention. (But I'm guessing you already knew that and were just testing me.)
The music and word combination of I’d like to add his initial to my monogram ... almost brings tears to my eyes. The lyrics say so much in so few words.
The next time I run into George and Ira I'll pass on your comments. I know they value your criticism.
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#1960025 - 06/19/08 10:03 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: ksoper]
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retrokeys
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The second verse to "Stardust" which begins "Beside a garden wall" is part now of Indiana University lore. The wall referred to is supposedly the retaining wall outside the IU Law School where Hoagy Carmichael was a student. Legend has it that a broken hearted Hoagy sat there and the tune came to him. He rushed agross the street to the "Book Nook" where he regularly performed. He sat down a played this classic for the first time there. A poignant story and probably an urban legend (if Bloomington qualifies as urban). Yet, we IU Hoosiers swear that it is true.
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#1960029 - 06/19/08 10:11 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Griffinator
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... and yet another anonymous poster. Why are so many so-called musicians afraid to use their real names. You'd think the more limelight the better .... but I digress.
Instead of writing there's an old saying, Ira wrote there's a saying old with quarter note emphasis on old since it's not a normal manner of speaking. Clever. Since this was the opening line to the verse it gets one's attention. (But I'm guessing you already knew that and were just testing me.)
The music and word combination of I’d like to add his initial to my monogram ... almost brings tears to my eyes. The lyrics say so much in so few words.
The next time I run into George and Ira I'll pass on your comments. I know they value your criticism.
1) I'm not "anonymous", Dave. That's my real location, and up until I closed down my studio, my name and the studio address were in my sig line. My nick is an extension of my last name. Just because your memory is too fuzzy to recall any of this (considering I've been a member here for six years) doesn't make your accusation correct.
2) I asked a legitimate question, what did you find so compelling about it. There was no derision in that question, there was no accusation, it was a question. You really, really need to get over yourself.
Edited by Griffinator (06/19/08 10:16 AM)
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#1960034 - 06/19/08 10:15 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: iLaw]
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Griffinator
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Griffinator,
You're focusing on the lyric, I guess, but what I find compelling is the structure. Rather than simply being a common rubatoed 8-bar or 16-bar intro, it has an AAB form that, while it would never stand on its own, nonetheless sets up the chorus (which can stand on its own) perfectly.
Larry.

A fair answer. George had a way with chord structures. It was Ira's lyric for which I had little use.
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#1960036 - 06/19/08 10:17 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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BluesKeys
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I have to say I think it is well crafted lyric and verse intro. You never find anything like that today, where the intro could be a completely different song. As a song writer I don't come close to the quality the brothers put out.
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#1960045 - 06/19/08 10:36 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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... and yet another anonymous poster. Why are so many so-called musicians afraid to use their real names. You'd think the more limelight the better .... but I digress.
Instead of writing there's an old saying, Ira wrote there's a saying old with quarter note emphasis on old since it's not a normal manner of speaking. Clever. Since this was the opening line to the verse it gets one's attention. (But I'm guessing you already knew that and were just testing me.)
The music and word combination of I’d like to add his initial to my monogram ... almost brings tears to my eyes. The lyrics say so much in so few words.
The next time I run into George and Ira I'll pass on your comments. I know they value your criticism.
1) I'm not "anonymous", Dave. That's my real location, and up until I closed down my studio, my name and the studio address were in my sig line. My nick is an extension of my last name. Just because your memory is too fuzzy to recall any of this (considering I've been a member here for six years) doesn't make your accusation correct. 2) I asked a legitimate question, what did you find so compelling about it. There was no derision in that question, there was no accusation, it was a question. You really, really need to get over yourself.
Your profile is empty, thus my remark. I really just respond to comments and don't always match up a ... name with a ... face.
It's now come down that Gershwin has to be defended in this forum. This is what it has come to?
You were given good reasons why the verse was well written. Do you agree with what I wrote or not. Please feel free to ... add to this discussion.
I'm more curious as to why you posted in this thread to begin with. Perhaps we could hear a verse or two of tunes you play. I'd love to hear which verses you play - a set list would be just fine. (This is a music forum and not a writing forum, but I'll settle for a set list.)
Is this a reasoned response?
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#1960068 - 06/19/08 11:06 AM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Griffinator
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It's now come down that Gershwin has to be defended in this forum. This is what it has come to?
George? Not so much. Ira, yeah, you probably do have to defend him, for the very reasons I laid out - his lyric is spotty, at best, with occasional moments of lucidity.
You were given good reasons why the verse was well written. Do you agree with what I wrote or not. Please feel free to ... add to this discussion.
Sure thing.
Instead of writing there's an old saying, Ira wrote there's a saying old with quarter note emphasis on old since it's not a normal manner of speaking. Clever.
To be perfectly honest, I don't find it clever at all, I find it to be yet another example of forced syntax in pop music. It happens constantly, so I suppose he gets a pass, but if you're going to place him in the pantheon of all-time great writers, this is probably not the best example to use.
The music and word combination of I’d like to add his initial to my monogram ... almost brings tears to my eyes. The lyrics say so much in so few words.
Well, I suppose that's a product of who's singing it moreso than the words themselves. "I'd like to add his initial to my monogram" is a very wordy way of saying "I want to marry him" - so your analysis is a bit backward - but it is certainly an interesting way of conveying that thought.
The next time I run into George and Ira I'll pass on your comments. I know they value your criticism.
Let me know how that goes. You do the out-of-body thing? Or just seances? 
I'm more curious as to why you posted in this thread to begin with.
Because I was genuinely curious as to what you found so compelling in the song.
I'd love to hear which verses you play - a set list would be just fine.
The bulk of what I play is self-composed. And yes, I'll dare step out and tell you I've written far better lyric than any Ira Gershwin examples I've ever heard. That really isn't saying much, AFAIC, if for no other reason than Jon Anderson, during his heyday, could write circles around me.
You're welcome to stop by My old band's myspace page and have a listen, if you happen to have 13 minutes to waste on that particular piece. The recording is bloody well awful - a product of the acoustics, plus me having a nasty chest cold the day we tracked vocals.
Just in case you can't decipher the lyric....
Cheshire smiling sun shining sarcastic Orb essence staring down on new time Felt forest breathing, pulsing, eclectic Blazing flora flourished, vibrant pantomime
And the callous river continues indifferently And the soulless river continues unendingly
Fearsome fiery sun dancing demonic Orb fury raining down on red clay Bleached bones sleeping, bleak catatonic Blazing flora rooted, defiant against the day
And the callous river continues indifferently And the soulless river continues unendingly
The peaceful rush belies your ancient raging silence The dormant power cascading through the whispering lie Awaiting only a touch from a primal ancestor Turns this quiet mirror into an all-consuming fire
Violence sets her course tonight New power falling from the sky Hell awakens from her bed Shallow and raging, see her rise Fixes her gaze on virgin life Terror flowing from her eyes Bringing newborn death to the land Welcome the recreation of existence
Oh, for a thousand wretched rivers Continue at my wounded crown The silted babble strips and worries My stoic granite faces down
Before the dawn is broken I see the water flowing Through winter's raging violence And summer's fiery silence Undaunted, forward, marching Unmoved and sickly minded No shame for what it's taken These portraits burn forevermore
Listless waning sun, soft melting plastic Orb crimson distance quietly fades away Deep golden valley, enshrouded and mystic Dreaming flora settled, preparing another day
And the callous river disperses indifferently And the soulless river pours into the open sea
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#1960132 - 06/19/08 12:59 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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I read the lyrics to Someone To Watch Over Me and it reads like a story.
I read what you've posted and it seems to me ... well, I'm not sure what the story is but it sure has a lot or really pretty words strung together.
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#1960142 - 06/19/08 01:10 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Griffinator
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I didn't say it was prose.
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#1960146 - 06/19/08 01:16 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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So, back to the ... original question in the initial post, ... What verses do you guys play?
This assumes you play tunes that have verses.
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#1960147 - 06/19/08 01:16 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Cliffk
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Well I remember watching this rendition (from about 2:34) and momentarily falling in love with her delivery, her eyes, mouth ... hey, you had to be there ok? Anyway, holla if you feel me [ducks] .
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#1960158 - 06/19/08 01:40 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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I'm listened to the link Griffinator provided ... in its entirety.
At this point I'm extremely surprised you responded to this thread. You know if you removed the distortion from the guitars and just played this on piano it might not have the same .... impact. Also, removing the repeats would certainly slim down the 13 minutes to a more manageable level.
Without the printed lyrics I'm afraid I would have absolutely no idea what was being .... sung\screamed except for a brief period towards the end where the lyrics were actually understandable.
May I ask a seemingly irrelevant question, how old are you?
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#1960163 - 06/19/08 01:46 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Griffinator
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34, Dave. And yes, that's completely irrelevant.
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#1960182 - 06/19/08 02:14 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Dave E
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(Since this was written so long ago I can only hope delirium won't ... contribute to this thread.)
You seem to be pretty good, Mr. Horne, at recognizing that someone else is spouting off on a thread when they shouldn't, because they lack the experience/understanding to actually contribute.
... yet you continually add your thoughts to threads about rock, which you clearly don't understand.
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#1960187 - 06/19/08 02:22 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave E]
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Dave Horne
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There seems to be a plethora of empty profiles ...
... yet you continually add your thoughts to threads about rock, which you clearly don't understand.
Enlighten me.
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#1960191 - 06/19/08 02:30 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Griffinator
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I'm going to venture out on a limb and assume you've not done any significant (i.e. beyond E.Comp 102) studies in Literary history, but I'm curious to know if you ever actually read any avante-garde poetry, you know, ee cummings, T.S. Eliot, Conrad Aiken, et al?
I read what you've posted and it seems to me ... well, I'm not sure what the story is but it sure has a lot or really pretty words strung together.
There's just no nice way to tell you that every time I read this I can hear a "hillbilly guffaw" at the end of the sentence.
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#1960195 - 06/19/08 02:37 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Dave E
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That's exactly what I was trying to do..
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#1960197 - 06/19/08 02:45 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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Dave Horne
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Griff, free feel to start a literary thread regarding your own work on your own.
Regarding your poetry\lyrics - if it were not for the printed version you posted, I, and no one else here (except possibly the CIA), would have been able to transcribe what you wrote. Somehow the screaming seems to detract from any value the words could possibly have. Perhaps that's just me, but I can't help but think your parents, if they're alive, might possibly agree with me.
As far as the value of the content of what you wrote, perhaps you could point us to publications where your works have been published.
I'm afraid I'm just a musician and the lofty meaning of your words escapes me.
On the other hand, Ira Gershwin is still alive and doing well it would seem.
You know, I keep looking for that hidden camera to announce that I'm being had. Go figure.
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#1960198 - 06/19/08 02:46 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave E]
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Dave Horne
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That's exactly what I was trying to do..
Could you be perhaps more enlightening? ... some concrete educational tidbits?
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#1960209 - 06/19/08 03:21 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Griffinator]
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kanker.
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I'll admit I don't play verses much any more. There are a whole lot of really great ones though. I do tend to play the verses for Brother Can You Spare a Dime and The Ballad of the Sad Young Men though...
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#1960213 - 06/19/08 03:22 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: kanker.]
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kanker.
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A peripheral question - does every singer do the verse to I Wish You Love? I know that every singer I have played the song with does.
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#1960214 - 06/19/08 03:26 PM
Re: verses to well known tunes
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Dave E
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Could you be perhaps more enlightening? ... some concrete educational tidbits?
My thought is expressed in its entirety in my first post in this discussion. I'm simply holding up a mirror. If you don't understand, there's nothing I can add that would clarify it.
Edited by Dave E (06/19/08 03:27 PM)
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