Okay, I am mad. M.A.D.

I had a potential gig booked for the band. It'd be a freebee, just some drinks and a few sandwiches.

I ask the club owner, do you have a PA or vocal amplification?

No?

Ok, you can hire it from this guy I know (my dad). I say €250 (€150 for dad, €100 split between the four band members).
They say it's too much.

Ok, I really want this gig... €150, the band'll earn nothing but it's an experience.

Weeks go by ... Today I get a mail: "You know, €150 for the PA is just too much, can't you get it for free?"

Maybe I'll offer them €150 as remuneration for using their pub to play music in ????

The ONLY reason I'm not sending them a mail with my exact thoughts, is because I do not want to give them any reason whatsoever to badmouth us. I wanna play in that region. Think I'll contact the pub NEXT to hers ...

Interesting. Usually, where I come from, if there is no P.A. you bring one. I have never heard of asking the bar owner to rent one.
But, I agree that if they want free music, they should be willing to help a bit. Kinda sounds like they don't really care if you play or not.
Believe me, I understand wanting to get exposure but maybe you should laugh and forget it.

In my part of town, we always brought a PA to play in clubs.

The only clubs that have their own PA systems were the "original music" clubs. That is still true and the "cover band" clubs don't seem to exist anymore. At least, I don't know about them.

If your dad owns a PA, why not just borrow it from him?

I'd lend you my PA but it might take a while for me to drive to Belgium from here.

We have to carry our own PA over here - in the main.

G.

LOL! The ones up here you don't wanna know about.
Black out some teeth and come on up J.

If we would have got any form of remuneration other than a handful of drinks and a sandwich, I would have gladly brought a PA of our own. Or if this was a club that regularly had shows and we knew we could secure a regular slot there, I would have gladly brought a PA of our own.

But:

(1) they refuse to pay the band "cos they can't afford it"
(2) in their view, giving us free drinks and some sandwiches cuts into their profits immensely (...)
(3) we would bring in between 10 and 30 people who consume (a lot) and who normally would never set foot in that place

For me, it's the principle of the matter. They wanna maximise their profits and that's fine by me, I get that. And I'm not in this business to make money. But I'm not in a charity organisation either.

Find the nearest local bar and offer to play there for free. Make sure you send some fliers (flyers?) to the mean publican.

Nothing like vengeance.

I mean, takes deep breath, stick to your guns.

Davo

Yeah - when we have had gigs where there's no house PA, we've rented one ourselves and paid for it from the Gig's takings.

If there's no takings, you have to decide if the gig is worth doing for your band.

He sounds like a mean, tight-fisted cat, but I don't think it's on The Venue to hire the PA.

If there's no house support, it's up to the band to bring it - you need to include that in your fee if you are charging one.

The point is: I agreed with this woman that ok, we'd play for free but she'd have to rent a PA. I negociated the price and she agreed, and now she's coming back asking if we can't get a PA for free.

Whilst theoretically we could, I am being stubborn here and don't want to. As stated above, we're already playing for free and we'll generate extra income by bringing our fans and friends, so the least she could do is provide some sort of remuneration.

That said, the underlying problem (and frustration from my part) is that our singer should finally go out and buy his own equipment. Then we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. Currently at rehearsals, he sings through a floor monitor hooked up to my 4x10 cab ...

I agree the publican shouldn't go back on what they agree to of course.

Is it only the Vocals going through the PA?

(BTW: the 250 Euro you initially quoted for PA hire seems expensive - is that the going rate? We've hired PAs here before at around $70AUD per day.....)

No, you should not be responsible for anything that was not originally spelled out in your discussions with the owner. For her(?) to cry Poormouth at this date is BS. You're bringing in the customers, for heaven's sake. If you were a paying customer and brought 10 friends, would you have to supply your own dishes because "well, it's just too expensive to wash them."?

Screw that. If the agreement was for them to supply a PA, then that should be where it stands.

We bring our PA with us when we play out, we control the sound and we know the equipment inside and out. Better that than have some person unknown to us tweaking the sound and tone to their liking and not necessarily to ours.

I know you really want to play there, but no one respects a doormat. The owner needs to understand that you don't work for them until you've set up and are ready to start playing. If they make you a lackey beforehand, hopefully they'll give you the courtesy of a reach-around, because I doubt you'll get anything else. They agreed to supply the PA, from wherever, be it your dad or another vendor. It's their responsibility.






Umm, you did get this in writing, correct?

Congratulations, you are not only not making money, you are spending your own. Your hobby isn't even paying for itself. And you're playing for a charity either - it's a bar.

Ask them if they get pro bono plumbing when the toilets back up. Listen to that little voice inside your head that is telling you that you are getting screwed.

Exactly.

Your desperation to play somewhere new is going to get you the short end of a very shitty stick.

Tell the club owner to pony up or get bent.

Yes.
Even paying only paid gigs I am often subsidising my hobby.
It's not normal for a bar to want you to play for free but agree to hire a PA - but if that's what they said.
I think it's time to get out of this situation and find another.

Bar staff are always paid.
Cleaners are always paid.
Whay should you subsidise their business?

I told a bandleader of a band I'm in to tell a club where to get off when they offered us a ridiculous quota deal. She did (more politely than I would have). Now they've come back with a proper paid gig deal.

Club owners will always lowball first, to see what exactly you'll accept.

This jamoke (sp., New York guys?) knows you're going to bring $ (or €) into the club. Test his resolve. Tell him, no, you can't get the PA free, even if it is your dad's (which is what he's counting on). Explain to him nicely that if he can't provide a PA, you can't play there. If he says he can't afford the PA, walk. You don't want to try to work for a chiseler.

Correct spelling and useage. Carry on.

Whew! I learned the word years ago but never learned how to spell it.

And after watching several episodes of "The Sopranos" last evening, it seemed like le mot juste in this situation Eddie decribes. Thanks, Rizzo!

Wow, a club owner going back on her word -- that's so...unusual.

This just sounds like a crappy deal all around, Eddie -- I'm not sure I understand why you want to do this gig so badly.

Eddie, as many people here have stated providing your own PA/backline is the norm--at least in the countries we represent.

So to me the question is--do you want/need the gig or not?

If you don't, then this is a moot point. Bow out (without burning any bridges--bar owners talk amongst themselves on a regular basis.)

If it is something you and your band want/need to do then make it happen.

Only you know what the right answer is for this situation.

Thank you all for your input, and I do appreciate and understand that bringing your own PA is actually quite standard. It is in Belgium too. Thing is, we don't have one But that is besides the point, I could borrow my dad's PA. But he, like me, is opposed to playing for the benefit of none other than the bar owner. If they don't want to pay the band, and don't want to provide nor pay for a P.A. then they can go and find a different band.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want this gig per se, it's just that it would have been nice to play out again as it's been a while. Like I said earlier on, there's a bar next to this particular one, which is run by people who used to own a locally famous blues joint. Think I'll go and knock on their doors Hell, just to annoy the other owner, I'd throw in a free PA rental and a lowered price for the band

The biggest problem with bars like this is that you probably aren't the only band getting this "offer". She is and you are by accepting her offer are hurting the market for local music in the area. Unfortunately, she knows that if you decline, there are 9 other bands that will essentially pay to play there. That ain't cool unless you're trying to get original music out to the people.

Please do not play there. Find the bar that actually pays bands and do what you have to, to work there. You are only taking money away from yourself, your dad, and other musicians by letting these bar owners get away with that crap. I hate those opportunistic "business people" trying taking advantage of musicians. They know in many cases, musicians are less savy than they are when it comes to business and negotiation. Mix in the fact that many are miserable drunks and most ethical lines become easily blurred. They usually think it's no big deal to stick it to a musician.

Now that is obviously not the case with all bar owner but ones like this are out there and need to be left alone by musicians. Let em rent a kareoke machine if they want to be cheap.

+1. Some time ago several bands, a somewhat large group of musicians who used to play in an area of my city where most of the "live music" bars were back then, gathered to discuss this and other topics. Some pubs were "auditioning" bands for a whole night, without any payment.. and therefore were taking away the work from professional bands who wanted, among other things, to get better paid and, at least, some basic food and drinks. In the end we won, got some raise on the payments and the basic food and drinks policy, but it was a HARD fight, since all of a sudden the pubs were left without any "decent" band around when they kept "auditioning" teenager bands (with all respect...) which only brought their (not high-bill consumer, by the way) friends and scared away the regulars...

The time passed, and there were again bars for original music... which usually pay only a percentage of the door's income... and cover bands bars, which usually have a flat rate per band, sometimes depending on the number of musicians on stage (Once I was part of a 9-piece band, some sorta of Chicago-EWF-BS&T clone, we played all of those and originals), and obviously had a hard time finding club dates.. but that was a little pushing it out of the limits. Still.. got some nice chances...

My advice... stay away from these people. Believe it or not, it gives us musicians a bad name.. once you get a "deal" like that, seems like you never would be able to get properly paid afterwards... about NONE of those beggineer bands who "auditioned" in those places lasted for long, or got properly paid, or even played more than twice on the same pub...

If you want to put on a show and are willing to spend your own money to do it (and possibly borrow your dad's PA), why not just put on your own show? Do you and your mates have lots of friends who would love to see you play?

Call your church. Maybe they have a social hall. Maybe your town has one. See what you have to do to use it for a night.

Sell tickets. Don't let anyone get on a "guest list." Split the money between yourselves and your dad. You might have to pay for a security guard. Buy a few cases of soda and sell sodas. Selling and drinking alcohol would make the whole thing too complicated.

Don't ever play a bar for free unless it's a charity event or there is something of benefit to you. And only if PA equipment is supplied. Bars are not non proffit establishments. If they're making money with your help you are entitled to a fee. Don't play for free expecting a job out of it. If there's a slow night and profits are low they probably won't hire you anyhow even if the fault for the slow night has nothing to do with you. Or they might not hire you simply because they don't like you. Also in my area rarely do the bars supply PA equipment so it's usually implied that the band has their own and by no means supply it for free even for a charity event. Or personal band equipment for that matter. If something gets damaged your out of work. The money covers repairs and wear and tear. Our philophasy(sp?) is we play for free but we get paid to move the equipment.

Your singer goes through your 4x10. You doin' Isaac Hayes and Barry White covers?

Jeremy, in fact this is one of my "projects" for October or November. In fact, this is how my current band played its first gig We'll probably do a private party kind of deal for practical and legal reasons, with free entrance and low-priced drinks (serving alcohol is not a problem in the location I have picked). I just need to go and find out when it's available.

And everyone, no worries. This deal is off, and like I said unless it is for some sort of charity event, I will not pay for free. Pure and simple. I am going to drop a demo at the pub next to this a-hole's pub and see if they can muster up a decent bargain, but it will require some remuneration other than drinks.

Luckily, the whole band is behind me on this one. Something I was a bit worried about (seeing as how it's the guitar player that got me in touch with this particular bar owner). And it has a silver lining: we're going to do a "pub tour" next weekend to spread demo's and negociate deals

I agree that deals like the one this particular pub owner wants to make, are hurtful towards everyone. And if I take it, we'll never play in that region again, unless we play for free. Which is something I want to avoid at all cost (no pun intended).

Atta boy Eddie and good luck with the pub tour!

Here's a thought -- if she doesn't want to pay you directly, will she allow you to collect a cover charge at the door?

That gets her off the hook, and you guys would get a little cash out of the deal.

Here in the U.S., a cover can run $5-$20 per person, depending on location, venue, who the band is, etc.

I don't know if they do that in Belgium though.