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#1957124 - 06/12/08 08:54 PM

She Blinded Me With Lawyers...

Frank M
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Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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'K, I know a bunch of you out there are gigging. I know a bunch of you are doing some covers. I've just got word from my vox that the coffee house that booked us does not have a copyright license. Appaerntly, the agency that enforces these sort of things (ADCAP or something like that) is levying fines of up to $1500 at local venues.

Someone out there has got to know more than I do about these things. A license cost (according to the venue) about $900 a year. The vox isn't getting a whole lot of useful info from the website. She will be calling tomorrow. As we do nothing but old American Jazz Standards, there is no original material and I really doubt we have the intellectual prowess to come up with two hours of original music.

If any of you pros can get me in a direction ... my gig this Saturday (tips only) may be DOA.

Thanks.

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Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
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#1957146 - 06/12/08 10:28 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Frank M]

Bottomgottem
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Loc: Morganton, North Carolina, USA

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http://www.ascap.com/

http://www.bmi.com/

I don't know much about it. Licensing fees have never been an issue that I have personally come up against.

Venues do get fined, though. One local club just had a pretty stiff penalty laid on them because an ASCAP rep. was scouting the area.

You may be able to find some useful info in the Music Player General Forums, which tend to be more business related.

#1957184 - 06/13/08 03:51 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Bottomgottem]

Frank M
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Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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Thanks for the links. They are kinda like credit card companies ... not really good at giving me the info I want but plenty of info on how to join and why. And they seem more interested in songwriters and composers than small venue performers.

I'm sure the decendants of Fats Waller aren't living the high life on "Ain't Misbehavin'" residuals.

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Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
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#1957185 - 06/13/08 04:02 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Frank M]

5 string Mike
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Registered: 08/23/07
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If you are doing older jazz stuff, how old? My understanding of copyright laws is that a piece is copyrighted for the life of the author plus 20 years, then it becomes public domain. I am thinking that if by 'older American jazz' like stuff from the 20s & 30s, there might be a good chance that much of it is public domain, or you could find some stuff that is public domain to fill in.

I might be way off, but I would think it's worth looking into.

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#1957196 - 06/13/08 04:34 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: 5 string Mike]

Ross Brown
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When I saw the topic I had flashbacks to my divorce.... thanks for that.

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#1957201 - 06/13/08 04:44 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Ross Brown]

Frank M
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Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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I think the newest stuff I'm doing it about 1967 (Peggy Lee's "Fever" and the Lettermen's "Goin' Out of My Head") but even the 1929 to 1941 stuff I've recently transcribed out of the fake books had "Copyright Renewed" in the info part of the song.

Sorry, Ross. Actually, when I published the thread, I got all weepy-eyed about my divorce back in 1998 .... starting with the "A's"; abuse, adultery, abandonment, addiction ...

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Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
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#1957204 - 06/13/08 04:48 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Ross Brown]

forceman
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If a public establishment plays music of any sort (CD's even) they have to pay ASCAP/BMI fees.

What the fee is depends on several factors--size of venue, type of entertainment, frequency of entertainment. BMI and ASCAP has a formula they use to determine fees.

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#1957211 - 06/13/08 05:02 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: 5 string Mike]

Bottomgottem
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Originally Posted By: 5 string Mike

If you are doing older jazz stuff, how old? My understanding of copyright laws is that a piece is copyrighted for the life of the author plus 20 years, then it becomes public domain. I am thinking that if by 'older American jazz' like stuff from the 20s & 30s, there might be a good chance that much of it is public domain, or you could find some stuff that is public domain to fill in.

I might be way off, but I would think it's worth looking into.

You could be right, but I believe that if the copyright is purchased and/or renewed, a song can generate royalties indefinitely.

"Happy Birthday To You" was written in 1893. The copyright was purchased in 20's or 30's, and anyone who uses the tune is, to this very day, required to pay for it's use.

#1957215 - 06/13/08 05:20 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Bottomgottem]

jcadmus
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Registered: 11/22/05
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I would think this is the venue's problem, not yours. No?

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#1957225 - 06/13/08 05:36 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Bottomgottem]

mattulator
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Registered: 07/27/04
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Originally Posted By: Bottomgottem

Venues do get fined, though. One local club just had a pretty stiff penalty laid on them because an ASCAP rep. was scouting the area.

I would love to see an ASCAP nazi try and shut down a bar around here. The locals would pop out their dentures and start swingin'.
Not that they really need an excuse for that . . .

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#1957244 - 06/13/08 06:12 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: jcadmus]

Frank M
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Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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Originally Posted By: jcadmus

I would think this is the venue's problem, not yours. No?

I would be, if it weren't for the fact the venue cancelled the gig because of the lisencing issue. We're a small band, with little or no name recognition, playing a type of music that doesn't "pack the house". The "coffee shop/wine bar/hotel lounge thing didn't pay us much, but got us access to a few private parties that paid really well. We were hoping that could translate into invitations for local jazz events and possibly gigs at some of the larger wineries for event weekends, vino nottes, and such.

Let's face it, classic rock and C/W bands rule the roost out here. They play the large "redneck" bars, the car shows, the large, outdoor, corporate sponsored events (Cool Desert Nights, the hydrofoil races, et. al.). We have one bar in town that specialises in the "Emo" bands with complicated hair from the Seattle area. The one and only jazz club in the area closed late last year. Hell, I'd stand on the corner with my bass case open if it weren't for the fact that there would be some local ordanence preventing that.

Note that I'm note really against what ASCAP is doing. Intellectual Property is just that ... property. But man, busting my chops playing 60 year old songs in a coffee shop is a little harsh. I didn't know I needed a license to have a juke box in a bar...

I also found out that ASCAP is but one organisaion that represents songwriters, artist and producers. What happens if I'm plyaing a song not registered with ASCAP and some other "alphabet soup" organisation comes sniffing around?

Edited by Frank M (06/13/08 06:15 AM)

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Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
The Columbia Jazz Trio

#1957247 - 06/13/08 06:18 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Ross Brown]

Paul K
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Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Ithaca, NY

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Originally Posted By: Ross Brown

When I saw the topic I had flashbacks to my divorce.... thanks for that.

Ha! Me too!

And I also think it would be the responsibility of the bar owner. You could always just do instrumentals over the changes; 'course that wouldn't make your vocalist too happy.

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#1957251 - 06/13/08 06:22 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Paul K]

lug
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Registered: 03/13/01
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I too think it's not your problem but the venues. If you want to record and distribute copyrighted stuff, you need:

http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

Edited by lug (06/13/08 06:25 AM)

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#1957268 - 06/13/08 06:45 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: lug]

Frank M
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Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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For those of you copying from my homework;

I just called ASCAP. The lady I spoke to was friendly and helpful (ALWAYS a plus). The license is the responsibility of the venue; private parties are exempt from license. ASCAP has the majority of the songs (of course they would say that) and "technically" you should have licenses from all three organisations, (BMI and someone else whose name I didn't catch)but ASCAP covers most of the songs so their license along should keep you out of trouble.

I guess I should stop kvetching now. Simply put, I know I'm being underpaid to pay at venues that are too cheap or unwilling to pony up for the license. Looks like we need to change our marketing strategy.

Yes, the copyright for "Happy Birthday" is administered by ASCAP. Title search yeilds 365 variations! Good thing we only sing it at private parties!

_________________________
Respectfully,
Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
The Columbia Jazz Trio

#1957285 - 06/13/08 07:12 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Paul K]

yourlord
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Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 884
Loc: Atlanta, GA

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It's the venue's responsibility to pay licensing fees. Not your bands. Either they can pony up the dough, or deal with only originals bands.

Copyright terms I think are currently 120 years or 70 years past the death of the author and can't be indefinitely renewed, at least until the copyright on mickey mouse comes up to expire again.. then congress will extend copyright to 200 years..

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#1957297 - 06/13/08 07:58 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: yourlord]

Rocky MacDougall
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Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 3308
Loc: San Antonio, Texas

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I would just tell them that my band does not play well enough to play a song that the patrons can recognize and our singer can't remember the words, how could you call that infringing on intellectual property.
Rocky

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#1957509 - 06/13/08 02:52 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Rocky MacDougall]

WCriley
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Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 179
Loc: Pennsylvania

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The bar my sons and I are playing in a few weeks told us that advertising would be our responsibility. The owner figures that if HE doesn't advertise and pays us out of the "cigar box" under the bar, he can avoid paying the performance rights organizations by saying we're playing for free.

Sounds to me like he's headed for problems with ASCAP...AND the tax man. I just hope we get paid before he gets shut down.

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#1957575 - 06/13/08 06:53 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: WCriley]

Bottomgottem
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Registered: 08/16/05
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Loc: Morganton, North Carolina, USA

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Originally Posted By: WCriley

The bar my sons and I are playing in a few weeks told us that advertising would be our responsibility. The owner figures that if HE doesn't advertise and pays us out of the "cigar box" under the bar, he can avoid paying the performance rights organizations by saying we're playing for free.

Sounds to me like he's headed for problems with ASCAP...AND the tax man. I just hope we get paid before he gets shut down.

The bar owner is wrong.

And not much of a businessman. His advertising policy is, in a word, stupid.

Edited by Bottomgottem (06/13/08 06:54 PM)

#1957603 - 06/13/08 08:48 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Bottomgottem]

Eric Van Buren
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Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 3866
Loc: Metro Detroit, MI

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ASCAP, BMI and SESAC are the Performing Rights Organizations (PROs).

Yes, the venue needs to get a license. Even for a jukebox.

It's too bad they canceled your show. Other prospects in your area sound bleak. Bummer.

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#1957643 - 06/14/08 03:33 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Eric Van Buren]

Frank M
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Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 1888
Loc: Benton City, WA

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Not exactly "cancelled". The venue is going to make this a "fund raiser", so I'll plead ignorant and let the venue take the hit if it comes to that. I don't think that pay, profit or pretense matters much. The impression I got from ASCAP was private party or no private party. Hell, the lady said even churches needed a license. Point is, I scheduled a guy to come out tonight and record us. Yeah, I'll bite the bullet on this one, but I really need a decent demo to start passing around. I think the demo is going to get us to that next level of paid gigs ... sponsored events.

Maybe recording all of us getting hauled off to the can will give us some cred.

_________________________
Respectfully,
Frank M

They have to keep me. I own the domain name.
The Columbia Jazz Trio

#1957650 - 06/14/08 03:53 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Frank M]

Brocko777
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Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 974
Loc: LoadRhode Island

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Let the venue call it a "scalliwag" it don't matter.
You being aware of it ia a bummer but the bottom line is they are too cheap to get the licensing.
I don't know what the cost is for said license but they want ENTERTAINMENT there you go.
Heck, even churches putting on bingo events EVEN if no cash prizes are given have to get permits. Dumb? Yes IMO. Tha' LAW.. of course.
Played a club/restaurant/bar here (that since closed) that had a print out on a 8.5X11 saying something to the effect.
"Attention ASCAP;
No Copyrighted music can be played in this establishment."
It was hanging by the entrance with a thousand other business cards and crap askew.
But they ALWAYS had music play from a portable boom box in the play... COVER bands every weekend. I happened to see it the "last" time we played there and mentioned about it. Odd she cancelled our last date. hhhmmmm wonder why?
The venue hired YOU, their responsibility.

Brocko

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#1957875 - 06/14/08 08:13 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Brocko777]

mattulator
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Sounds like that bar owner is heading for trouble.
I would be concerned about going down with him.

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#1957985 - 06/15/08 08:44 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: mattulator]

WCriley
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Loc: Pennsylvania

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I'm not an entertainmenet lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but here are a few random thoughts:

I've worked in several establishments with signs such as "No ASCAP music played here". They were all busted sooner or later.

The first bills a radio station pays every month are the electric and the performanace rights. They're out of business without them.

I'm not sure if it's still true, but the AFM contract used to specifically state that the musicians were not responsible for paying the song rights.

I could be wrong, but I think demo recordings are fine; performance rights only kick in if you sell the recordings. Isn't it the same principle as copying a recording for personal use vs. copying it for someone else?

Don't we have a forum participant who's an AFM big-wig? Maybe he can weigh in.

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#1957996 - 06/15/08 09:28 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: WCriley]

jeremy c
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When I see a bar owner driving a Yugo, I'll feel sorry for him.

For about 2 seconds.

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#1957997 - 06/15/08 09:29 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: WCriley]

Wally Malone
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AFM Bylaws, Article 10, Section 22: AFM members and leaders are prohibited from assuming any responsibility for the payment of license fees for any composition they play and from assuming or attempting to assume any liability whatsoever for royalties, fees, damage suits, or any other claims arising out of the playing of copyright compositions.

Wally

#1958019 - 06/15/08 10:47 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Wally Malone]

jeremy c
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Every once in a while someone asks me why I don't play in clubs anymore.

Threads like this help remind me.

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#1958030 - 06/15/08 11:18 AM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: jeremy c]

Rocky MacDougall
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What would be the approximate cost for a club to pay the proper fees, per evening, for a cover band?
Rocky

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#1958048 - 06/15/08 12:27 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Frank M]

Phil W
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 9955
Loc: London, England

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Originally Posted By: Frank M

'K, I know a bunch of you out there are gigging. I know a bunch of you are doing some covers. I've just got word from my vox that the coffee house that booked us does not have a copyright license. Appaerntly, the agency that enforces these sort of things (ADCAP or something like that) is levying fines of up to $1500 at local venues.

Someone out there has got to know more than I do about these things. A license cost (according to the venue) about $900 a year. The vox isn't getting a whole lot of useful info from the website. She will be calling tomorrow. As we do nothing but old American Jazz Standards, there is no original material and I really doubt we have the intellectual prowess to come up with two hours of original music.

If any of you pros can get me in a direction ... my gig this Saturday (tips only) may be DOA..

Thanks.

You could try playing only material in the public domain. This thread lists several jazz standards now in the public domain because of the date composed (much Irving Berlin for example).

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=001198;p=0

Edited by Phil W (06/15/08 12:28 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot the link

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#1958052 - 06/15/08 12:35 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Phil W]

jeremy c
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Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 11262
Loc: Berkeley,CA,UNITED STATES

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P)lay 100% original material.

Make it up on the spot if you have to: the first song is Am7 to D7,
song 2 is Em7 D7 C7 B7, song 3 is a blues progression shuffle in F, song four is a bossa going from GMa7 to CMa7, song five is C7 to F7, song 6 is a minor blues in Dm with a funky feel. That should get you through set one. Repeat in different keys for other sets.

If anyone in the audience requests a tune, tell them that the clubowner doesn't allow requests.

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#1958118 - 06/15/08 03:50 PM

Re: She Blinded Me With Lawyers... [Re: Rocky MacDougall]

Griffinator
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Originally Posted By: Rocky MacDougall

What would be the approximate cost for a club to pay the proper fees, per evening, for a cover band?
Rocky

As Frank said, about $900 a year. Pretty cheap.

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