#1942361 - 05/15/08 12:13 AM
Metronomes, any suggestions
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super combinator
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hi folks,
I probably shud have got one sooner but....... I dont know much about these contraptions, who is a decent maker etc, shud I get an electronic one or one of those cool pyramid types??
What wud I need to practice along with when playing with a bit of volume. Any features I shud be aware of?
thx!
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#1942370 - 05/15/08 01:07 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: super combinator]
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rasj76
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Check out Boss' "metronome on steroids" DB-90.
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=721&ParentId=127
It has a guitar input and headphone out for silent practice. you can even quantify note subdivisions and it even has drum style patterns.
i tried one and i really liked it but i opted for a drum machine instead.
it's a little bit pricey but it's worth your time to check it out.
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Ronald
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#1942376 - 05/15/08 02:48 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: rasj76]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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metronomes are basically pretty hard to play along with. I learned, as a drummer, but it sucked. I think it is a lot easier to play along with a drum machine or program set to side stick or closed hat. Just my opinion.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1942378 - 05/15/08 03:27 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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super combinator
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Rasj,
I will check that link again later when I have more time, looks like I may need a pilots license to operate that sucker 
Bill,
Tell me about, the other day at my lesson my sensei cranks one up & it was like trying to walk & chew gum at the same time only harder 
thx!
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#1942409 - 05/15/08 05:37 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: super combinator]
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rasj76
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Rasj, I will check that link again later when I have more time, looks like I may need a pilots license to operate that sucker
it's very simple actually. no programming required. all you have are sliders and the giant knob to operate it.
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Ronald
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#1942413 - 05/15/08 05:42 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: super combinator]
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rasj76
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Rasj, I will check that link again later when I have more time, looks like I may need a pilots license to operate that sucker
it's very simple actually. no programming required. all you have are sliders and the giant knob to operate it.
_________________________
Ronald
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#1942459 - 05/15/08 08:00 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: rasj76]
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Guitar Slinger
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I agree with Bill and Ras that it's easier to practice to something that can generate a beat instead of just a click. You should check out the Korg Pandora PX4. It also has built-in Bass lines so you can practice with some chord changes too.
I did a write-up on the PX4 on my Blog if you want to check it out.
http://livemusiciancentral.com/2008/04/24/practicing-to-a-beatnot-a-metronome/
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#1942473 - 05/15/08 08:18 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: rasj76]
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Fumblyfingers
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You won't always have the luxury of a nifty drum track to play to....learn how to play in time with a metronome....how to subdivide the beat into whole's, half's, 1/4's, triplets, 1/8ths, 1/16th's, etc etc.
It is not hard at all in my opinion.
What type is your choosing but I like the Wittner for style...looks good around furniture but it is only a tick tock deal.....I love my Korg metronome nd you can set it to accent and also to play different rhythm's.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Korg-MA30-Digital-Metronome?sku=214022
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#1942507 - 05/15/08 09:53 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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miroslav
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The only issue with some standalone metronomes is getting them to "click" loud enough if you happen to be playing at any decent level though an amp...
...otherwise, the old wind-up, pyramid-style has been the seen on many pianos over the years!
I still have mine, from like....30 years ago!
That said...these days I just fire up the DAW and use it's beat/loop options, ‘cuz you can get much more "feel" from that than just a simple click-click-click-click....
Some of the new electronic tuners also offer metronome options, like the Peterson V-Sam (which I use)....and it is pretty loud, but you can also feed the output into your amplification if needed.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1942594 - 05/15/08 01:06 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: miroslav]
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fantasticsound
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I am a firm believer that metronomes are only useful for learning tempos once you know how to play a piece. Attempting to play something you are unfamiliar with while a computer keeps perfect time is self defeating. You end up trying to keep up with the metronome rather than learning the notes and fingerings. Most teachers use metronomes bass ackwards, expecting their students to keep up rather than play clean first. Most everyone on the planet can learn simple to moderately difficult rhythms in pieces, then put them together on their own. Then they can learn to play at speed.
That said, when it is time to use a metronome you can, of course, create a drum pattern and play to that, but try taking it with you wherever you go.  I like to practice tempo when I have a few minutes. This often means pulling my acoustic guitar out at work, at Lilly's school, at the shul... places I have no access to a sound system or possibly even an electrical outlet. For me, a metronome is indispensable in addition to my drum machine.
Also, drum machines are the equivalent of reverb on a singer. Sure, they sound really nice and are more interesting to play off but they also hide the precision you're using a metronome to learn in the first place. Of course, if you play with a group you'll have to learn to lock in with the drummer, but in practice I'd prefer a metronome that allows me to hear the warts in my playing so I can improve my technique.
I've owned a Boss DB-12 I've had for about a decade and it's done me well. I'd definitely recommend the palm size Boss DB-30 assuming it's as good or better than my DB-12. They support multiple time signatures, odd times and offer soft, audible clicks for quiet practice, a headphone jack that can also feed a sound system and two LED's for practice with no audible click. (The LED's work whether or not the click is present.) It features 6 rhythms. (quarter note, eighth rest/eighth note, eighth notes, eighth triplets, eighth triplets with center rest and sixteenths)
The DB-12 also has stopwatch and timer functions, reference pitch that can be adjusted from A=438Hz to 445Hz as well as an octave of other pitches. (Including sharps.) Strange as it seems those extra features have been useful from time to time. It's nice, when you need a stopwatch/timer, to know exactly where you put it since it's in your primary instrument case.
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#1942601 - 05/15/08 01:26 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: fantasticsound]
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miroslav
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Attempting to play something you are unfamiliar with while a computer keeps perfect time is self defeating. You end up trying to keep up with the metronome rather than learning the notes and fingerings. Most teachers use metronomes bass ackwards, expecting their students to keep up rather than play clean first.
When I was first learning...the way I was taught by all my teachers to use a metronome was to start of at a slow BMP...and then keep bummping up the BMP as I got comfortable.
It was never expected that I immediately start at full tempo speed on the first try....
Starting at a slow BMP and ratcheting it up in small steps really does help you get fluid speed without any clams.... 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1942636 - 05/15/08 02:13 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: miroslav]
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fantasticsound
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Right, but that's still self defeating if you're not thoroughly familiar with the notes first. Most teachers start you on a slow tempo, sure, but that's still a contradiction with learning the notes and changes. You should never worry about timing when you're beginning a new exercise or technique. You need to worry about the notes. Then you can worry about rhythm and finally tempo.
But yes, once you've learned the notes you begin at a relatively slow tempo and increase it as you reach clean performance at the slower tempo.
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#1942735 - 05/15/08 05:44 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: super combinator]
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Bejeeber
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one of those cool pyramid types??
Those are such cool mechanical contraptions, but in my experience they are much less practical than electronic metronomes.
If not placed on a completely level surface, they'll beat irregularly, pretty much spoiling the deal.
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#1942740 - 05/15/08 06:08 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Bejeeber]
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pauldil
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I don't think I've ever really had any difficulty playing along with a metronome. These days, I use this: http://www.pgmusic.com/metronome.htm
Very nice for $25.
Paul
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#1943169 - 05/16/08 04:05 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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fantasticsound
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You should never worry about timing when you're beginning a new exercise or technique. You need to worry about the notes. Then you can worry about rhythm and finally tempo. If you cannot play a piece at say even a slower tempo than written...you cannot read and need to work on it. It all goes hand in hand and to me it seems a cop out to say you should not worry about one or the other. Granted there are many ways to skin a cat ( that has pissed on your carpet and ripped up your sofa  ) but really the correct way seems to me that it all goes hand in hand....... meter, phrasing etc etc is as important as the actual notes. Not to say you can't approach it by getting one nailed before the other but it seems like it might not be the best way.
It's not at all a cop out. It's the same whether you're talking about playing music, learning forms in martial arts or many other rhythmic activities. You must learn the notes and how you move from note to note just as you must learn the moves and how you switch from one to another before you work on tempo. You may be in rhythm or you may not as you learn the basics, but you don't try to be lock step with a metronome for either.
Perhaps my inspiration for these opinions says it better than I. Jeff Berlin said it to a small group of us at a clinic around 1997 and he's preached it in lots of interviews.
Interview # 1
I like this quote from a 2002 interview:
There's nothing here that's never been said before, except maybe don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not going to give it to you. And don't use a hand grip because you don't need hand strength to play bass. You need dexterity and light touch. And don't practice picking exercises. They're about as meaningful as rolling the letter "r" and thinking you know how to speak Spanish. You have to have content before technique. When you have content, your technique must develop because of the need of the music to be represented. People go the other way.
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#1943201 - 05/16/08 05:57 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: fantasticsound]
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MILLO
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The cheapest of the Boss Dr. Beat line should be good enough, it's like 40 bucks.
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=670&ParentId=127
If you're just starting it should give you plenty to work with for years. I just got it and I'm very happy w/ it. For rehearsals w/ ensembles I coach I just plug it to a practice amp and voilà... louder than the most expensive Dr. Beat. I call it "the resident" 
YES, PRACTICE TO A METRONOME--PURCHASE A METRONME RIGHT AWAY OR USE http://WWW.METRONOMEONLINE.COM. What to practice? First off, SHORT scales, or SCALE FRAGMENTS, SHORT melodic arpeggios, and other things--don't necessarily practice EVERYTHING w/ the metronome when you're starting out. Something like the simple act of playing two notes along the same string, making sure your tone is right, making sure they're legato when you want them to be, etc. Or two notes on two different strings, to train your fingers to [physically] effectively AND MUSICALLY move from one string to the next. You need patience in order to do it, and you need to know how to PLAY WITH IT as opposed to try to CATCH UP to it or FOLLOW IT or WAIT FOR IT.... and what to practice w/ it, which later on might be EVERYTHING YOU PLAY.
It's all in your mind... sounds wishy-washy, but it's true: it's more in your mind than in your fingers; like music itself. You need to develop a mental sense of rhythm before you can train your fingers to move in rhythm. Metronome helps immensely in that.
Set it slowly, just listen to it for a good 10-20 seconds, a few measures, whatever... then imagine something simple that you want to play to that beat BEFORE actually playing it, then play it and make sure that what comes out of your instrument is what you heard in your head.
Edited by MILLO (05/17/08 07:37 PM)
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#1943227 - 05/16/08 07:52 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: MILLO]
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Fumblyfingers
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Maybe cop out was the wrong choice of words, Why though would you encourage someone to get really good at learning the notes and have them concentrate less on the rhythm and less on meter....which is where that approach is headed.
It is a really good exercise to take a series of dots written out with one pitch with lot's of rhythmic changes and learn rhythm......and it is really important to be able to play in time. This exercise should be a part of reading studies....some time spent on horizontal, some time spent on rhythm some time spent on vertical reading, some time spent on technique and all with a view to combine them all and play simple pieces at first and on to more difficult pieces as the person improves.
It is all about progress and a big part of the progress is tempo. At first a beginner might have to slow down Baa Baa Black Sheep quite a lot to play it....but it is such an accomplishment to be able to finally be able to play a piece at tempo and all the way through without mistakes.
When you show up for auditions and that baton goes up you better have your crap together because the leader is not going to slow things down or accommodate someone who does not have solid meter or who can't play the song at tempo.
The metronome is the answer to get your crap together....it forces you to be on the ball because when it is tack tack tacking and you are choking.........done deal......you did not nail it. That is the reference right there..the benchmark or whatever...it's the baton, the drummer, the other musicians...you have to be able to hang.
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#1943238 - 05/16/08 08:41 PM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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fantasticsound
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Do me a favor and read some of what Jeff has to say. I would mention these interviews are far from complete in explanation of Jeff's strong opinions on the subject. That clinic was a real eye opener. I think it was put on by Thoroughbred Music a year or two before they were sold to Sam Ash, here in Nashville.
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#1943322 - 05/17/08 04:45 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: fantasticsound]
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super combinator
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Hey, turned into quite the thread!!
Lots of good ideas on using metronomes & lots of model suggestions, will probably end up with one of the korg or boss digital metronomes!!
thx!!
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#1943347 - 05/17/08 05:55 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Bejeeber]
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Caevan O'Shite
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one of those cool pyramid types??
Those are such cool mechanical contraptions, but in my experience they are much less practical than electronic metronomes. If not placed on a completely level surface, they'll beat irregularly, pretty much spoiling the deal.
I've never heard one of that type that didn't seem to beat irregularly, and inconsistently so. Frustrating and irritating as all Hell!! 
I agree with others here that drum-machine patterns and metronomes that allow for beats and/or snare/high-hat/kick like patterns are vastly better than a straight click-track. Even if the rhythm is still just straight on-the-beat time, it's better than a repeating click. That Boss unit looks interesting...
 I've often used an echo/delay set to infinite-repeat to play against rhythmically, and if you can do "multi-tap" style rhythmic repeats, they can be great for some cool beats, too. And then there's any device that you can loop with...
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#1943418 - 05/17/08 10:06 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Caevan O'Shite]
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Gifthorse
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Timing is SOO important. It really separates the men from the boys in terms of professional sounding guitar playing.
Thats what players like Van Halen, Beck, Billy Gibbons, SRV bring to the table. Perfect timing.
See, I think if you hit a wrong note as long as you are on time you can fix it. I am referring to improvising. You can always fall back on a chromatic to pull you back up on the horse. Or as Junior Brown said, "if you make a mistake play it 2 times and it becomes a lick"
But not without perfect timing. It can take years to develop for some players because it really takes tons of coordination and natural feel to keep it real. So practice tons to a metronome.
I used to sleep with mine on at night. Then around 3:00 am I would wake up and be like, "what the hell is that?" and turn it off.
You may sound like a robot at first but the trick is to be able to make it sound natural with the click. If you can do that you have perfect timing and you can move on. Also if you ever produce your own or someone else's music you will hear the discrepancies easier in the other instruments. Timing errors on recordings sound amatuer and crappy.
Whats even harder is to find amatuer drummers who can play and record perfectly to a click. With drums it is no easy task to have a perfect take to a click. Frankly I dunno how they do it. I mean hear the click when they are playing so loud. But with a good one (like my drummer) the click almost dissapears when you are listening to the take cuz the drums are so on top of it.
There are a few timing errors on our CD, but not too many. Maybe 3 or 4. But dunno if other people would notice them. I have 1 off time note that drives me nuts. I tend to play better live when I can feel the music more.
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#1943433 - 05/17/08 10:34 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Gifthorse]
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Fumblyfingers
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Shuddup and play yer wobbly guitars!!!!!
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#1943438 - 05/17/08 10:50 AM
Re: Metronomes, any suggestions
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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Fumblyfingers
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Beat this you single guitfiddle playing bastards.....I got my best eye on you!!
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