#1942013 - 05/14/08 06:43 AM
Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
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skipclone 1
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I didn`t want to attach this question to anyone`s comment in particular but I just read something that got me thinking about it. Anyway, good idea, bad idea? neither?
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#1942029 - 05/14/08 06:59 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: skipclone 1]
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A String
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I'd say that it entirely depends on the age of the kid and the type of concert you want to bring them to.
I lived in concerts in the beginning of the eighties. I used to skip school to go to concerts.
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#1942033 - 05/14/08 07:03 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: A String]
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Trucks
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Sure.
I saw Dave Grohl on TV, standing in the crowd at a concert holding his lil' baby. She had industrial ear defenders on (the type you wear in a factory).
_________________________
"do I see a vacuum there, or am I b-goin' blind.."
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#1942037 - 05/14/08 07:07 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: skipclone 1]
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Guitarzannie
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Well, let's put it this way: I was 22 when I got tinnitus from being at a Monkees concert. I've dealt with it for 22 years. I now wear earplugs faithfully, and have even been to concerts where the music was loud even when I wore the ear plugs.
I don't think that adults should be a loud concerts, let alone children. The problem is that you often don't know how loud a concert is going to be until you actually get there.
I've lost some of my hearing. Believe me, a really loud concert isn't worth losing it over. I still go to concerts because I realize that I can't live my life by living under a rock.
Michelle
Edited by Guitarzannie (05/14/08 07:29 AM)
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#1942054 - 05/14/08 07:30 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Guitarzannie]
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Caevan O'Shite
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I'd say, with proper (and properly worn) hearing-protection, sure!
But the particular show, venue, and seating (and weather, if it's outdoors!), need to be considered, too. Everything needs to be considered when it comes to kids!  And you'll never think of everything... !! 
I've always had a touch of tinnitus, myself, probably due to both ear-infections and related problems when I was very young, and maybe also due to once getting ahold of a bottle of baby-aspirin when I was a toddler and toddling-off to sit down in a closet and munching the yummy little things... !!  I'm sure I exacerbated the tinnitus later on with loud concerts, loud electric-guitar playing, and playing in a few loud bands, all without hearing-protection...
I've got a notch at about 5k in my right-ear, and I definitely wear hearing-protection as needed, and then some, in loud work situations and the like...
_________________________
~Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite~
_ _ ___ _ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
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#1942055 - 05/14/08 07:30 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Guitarzannie]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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very bad idea.
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1942057 - 05/14/08 07:32 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Caevan O'Shite
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Please expound on that, Bill. I very much respect your opinions and advice.
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#1942058 - 05/14/08 07:35 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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A String
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Again, I think that depends. When we say kids, are we talking about three or thirteen? When we say concert, are we talking about classical or death metal? It's all relative so really, you can't just give it a yes or no answer.
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#1942068 - 05/14/08 07:53 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: A String]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Since we are talking about 'taking kids to concerts' it is a child likely under 14. What teenager wants to be seen going to a concert with the old man?
Anyway, Doc could probably give chapter and verse about it. I just suggest 1. NOT doing it. 2. If you HAVE to do it, get ear plugs for the kid and montior them throughout the concert to insure that they are really wearing them and that the plugs are seated properly.
Hearing damage cannot be reapired.
Loss of hearing sensitivity is a lifelong progressive occurance.
I work with guys who try to work around their hearing loss. It is sad. I've spent most of my adult life trying to protect my hearing.
If you put a child in harms way, you suck. To do so for such a frivolus thing is even worse.
Loud is loud... death metal or classical, makes no difference. If you even have to question it, you already know the answer. But don't take my word for it, ask your doctor, or a hearing specialist. You might look here: http://www.hei.org/children/children.htm
for more info. I have not read this, but the institute is well respected in the industry.
the tweenhealth.org site says this about child hearing loss:
"Causes of Hearing Loss
-was born prematurely
-stayed in the neonatal intensive care unit
-had high bilirubin requiring a transfusion
-was given medications that can lead to hearing loss
-has a family history of childhood hearing loss
-had complications at birth
-had frequent ear infections; had infections such as meningitis or cytomegalovirus
-exposed to very loud sounds or noises even of brief duration
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1942069 - 05/14/08 07:57 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Compact Diss
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Ear plugs are a must in my family when we attend shows, the 9 year old up, no plugs, no show.
We don't even debate it. Everyone wants them.
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#1942092 - 05/14/08 08:21 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Caevan O'Shite]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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opps.... double post
Edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios (05/14/08 08:23 AM)
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1942093 - 05/14/08 08:22 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Caevan O'Shite]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Wow- that list of "Causes of (child) Hearing Loss" has more that I'd have to check-mark than not, for myself! I should have included in my post above, "depending on how young and how loud", too, I think.
Well, you should definitely try to get checked out of the neonatal intensive care unit, ASAP. (You DO seem to be popular with the nurses though... hmmm....)
In terms of 'how loud', you would be shocked at how little it takes to cause damage, and you would also be shocked at how loud many things are that you are confronted with in daily life. I wear plus when working with tools, and when working in concert venues during setup, and when mowing the lawn. I wear them when jamming electric with anyone in their basement or garage (usually concerte block=very very bad.)
The EPA or Ocupational Saftey Admin have noise statistics and duration allowances. Trust me, a concert violates ALL of them, even for adults. And besidnes, unless you carry an SPL, how do you KNOW how loud it is???? You don't. Because the ear can be fooled very easily.
This brings up another point.... I know so many young players who believe that they cannot get "their sound" unless they are playing at ear-bleeding levels. "Their sound" has nothing to do with what they sound like, and everything to do with how the body is trying to protect itself by shutting down, and "compressing" what is being heard. What they think that they are hearing is really their bodies screaming for help. If your ears ring after you stop playing, you are hurting yourself. If they ring the next day, you are an idiot. What's that, you can't HEAR ME????? Physics, boys. I've yet to find a way to beat the physical laws, which really ARE laws and are totally unforgiving in their punishment for violation.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1942102 - 05/14/08 08:57 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Dr. Ellwood
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There is not one band, act, movie or any event that is worth the risk of destroying your hearing! It is and should be a crime to expose a child to anything that will damage their hearing! knowingly exposing them to high DB levels is the same as beating them as far as I'm concerned.
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#1942108 - 05/14/08 09:04 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Trucks
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Food for thought, indeed, Bill. Thanks for all the info.
I have quite sensitive hearing and actually find noise to be irritatingly loud at seemingly low volumes. This is good in one respect, as I tend to play relatively quietly and plug my ears up for concerts (a couple of concerts ago, I didnt use defenders and had a god awful noise hangover for a couple of days after, plus one screeeeeeming female fan behind me actually made me go temporarily deaf in one ear for a few minutes... that scared the sh*! out of me).
_________________________
"do I see a vacuum there, or am I b-goin' blind.."
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#1942118 - 05/14/08 09:29 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Trucks]
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miroslav
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... plus one screeeeeeming female fan behind me actually made me go temporarily deaf in one ear for a few minutes...
The ears can recover from excessive levels...but little by little they will get worn down (the little "hairs" die off)...
...and then there are some really excessive levels that can instantly/permanently kill off some of your hearing.
I can't stand real loud music anymore...though I like to play guitar with a little kick to it, as it just doesn't sound right at whisper/bedroom levels. 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1942119 - 05/14/08 09:32 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Trucks]
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Eric Iverson
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I guess my hearing has gotten more sensitive over the years - or better trained for music, anyway.
As a teenager it was the louder the better, and we didn't care about sound QUALITY at all. Now I like the sound to fill the room, but not deafen me! And if you can hear everyone in the band (both onstage and in the audience), so much the better.
The last real rock concert I went to was Eric Johnson at the Bottom Line in NYC. He plays damn loud, but in that case I didn't mind, because he played so great - and he cared about such trivia as being in tune and great tone.
Adults and teenagers have the right to subject themselves to extreme volume if they want to, but I don't think little children should be. (Though I have known kids who went to loud concerts without apparent injury. Not a chance I would take if I had kids of my own!)
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#1942137 - 05/14/08 10:01 AM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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02R96
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I've always wondered if the quality of the sound makes a difference. I'll give some examples. Now admittedly these aren’t concerts known for skull fracturing sound, but I think they’ll work…
We went to see Faith Hill. The event was in an older hockey rink where the sound was so loud and boomy, all the detail was lost and it sounded like mud. Our seats were left, about a 45 degree angle from the stage. Everyone’s ears were ringing afterwards.
My daughter and I saw Sarah McLaughlin at a multipurpose arena. Our seats were about 20 rows back from center stage, on the floor. Again, the sound was loud, but dialed in and clear. It was a great show BTW.
The wife and I saw Shania Twain at the same arena. High energy, loud, and like Sarah’s show, the sound was clean and clear. Her stage was round, in the center of the arena with the line arrays flown above. We were on the floor again.
Nobody complained about ear problems from the “clean” shows, but the muddy one bothered every one. I know it's not a scientific comparison, but it just seems that the better sound quality, the less ear problems I've had.
Then there was the time I saw Rick Derringer. My ears rang for days after that one…
_________________________
Dan
(I hate who I've become, trying to escape who I am...)
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#1942278 - 05/14/08 06:23 PM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: 02R96]
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mdrs
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Here's some info about hearing, and hearing loss;
1. When someone talks about going temporarily deaf, what really happens is that a very loud sound causes a tiny muscle in your middle ear to pull the "ear bones" away from your ear drum....it's an automatic protective response where your middle ear is trying to protect your neurosensory inner ea(the hair cells) from damage, which if it occurs, is permanent. That muscle can go into spasm, and hold the "ear bones" away from your ear drum for a period of time, thus making your hearing much less sensitive during that time. The spasm will eventually end, and your hearing should return.
2. You can not recover from actual hearing loss....what I'm talking about here is that when the "hair cells" (the neuro-sensory part of the inner ear...these cells are caused to move due to the sound impacting on them, and the movement of these cells translates into what you hear) are damaged, it is permanent. You are born with one set of these hair cells. They do not replicate themselves. So, if/when each individual cell is lost, it can not be replaced. These cells slowly die off with age. Exposure to loud noise will damage these cells, and cause them to die off prematurely. So, actual loss of hearing is due to these cells dying. And, when they die, they can't be replaced.
Hair cells can be damaged by excessive noise at any age. So, you should protect hearing from childhood and throughout life.
Once it's gone, it ain't coming back!!
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#1942280 - 05/14/08 06:28 PM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: mdrs]
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mdrs
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Also, EVERY exposure to excessively loud sound for any significant amount of time will damage and cause the loss of hair cells. YOU CAN NOT TELL YOU'VE LOST THEM UNTIL YOU REACH A CRITICAL STAGE.....and then, it's too late. Every exposure that causes damage brings you closer to losing some part of your hearing. You can't tell it until it's actually pretty far gone. So, don't delude yourself into thinking that you are OK because you think your hearing is fine. It's like the one straw that breaks the camel's back....the camel is fine, and then suddenly it's too late.
Also, you can LEARN to hear things better. But, your actual ability to hear NEVER gets better with age. Even if you are totally careful and are never exposed to any loud noise, your hearing gets worse with age, due to natural attrition....meaning hair cells die of old age slowly, and continuously as you grow older.
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#1942281 - 05/14/08 06:30 PM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: mdrs]
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mdrs
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Furthermore.....
Damage to hair cells is a mechanical event. The more energy you expose your hair cells to, the more potential for damage there is. So, it's dB's and exposure time that rule. Mellow loud music will damage your hearing just as much as metal music at the same loudness and duration of exposure.
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#1945706 - 05/21/08 05:14 PM
Re: Taking kids to really LOUD concerts
[Re: mdrs]
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nauc
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i think anyone should go to concerts as long as they take some plugs
i have these... highly recommended
theyre cheap for what they can do and very comfortable
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx
Edited by nauc (05/21/08 05:16 PM)
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