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#1941180 - 05/12/08 01:10 PM How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom"
cassius
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My band has had a standing gig at a couple of bars for several months. All the heavy gigging is about to come to a pause, because I'm going up to Lawrence, KS to do a pharmaceutical research internship (anyone want to jam?*). However, I want, in the time that passes, to fix a band issue.

The guitarist and I have seen a marked rise in performance over the last two years and we both feel it. He's gotten a really powerful sense of "communicative" playing and how to lead a band in a dynamic way. I've learned to reduce myself to what's essential most of the time and keep it sexy rather than nerdy... y'know... bass pulse. Especially compared to where I was two years ago. It also helps that we've picked up some good equipment, like my Ric and his John Mayer Strat.

Our drummer is a BEAST... good chops, pays a lot of attention to Carter Beauford, Neil Peart; very passionate fellow. I love him like a brother. But, interestingly, his playing has gotten a lot worse over the last few months throughout the steady gigging. Rather than simplifying, he starts busting out these mega-Fills 16s left and right, at the most inappropriate times. We do a sweet cover of "Old Love" (Clapton) and he'll even start burning up his kit on THAT tune (we go nice and slow).

It's as if his inner metronome, after two years, has DIED. Not only that, his inner groove seems to have gone with it... and with that, the whole band's collective pocket. Nothing kills a ripping solo like a lost downbeat.

What do I say to him? He's good and he knows it. He's proud of his skills. Whenever I confront him he just talks about being tired or not paying attention. I can tell he's not paying attention--how else could you keep making the same mistake? I just don't know what to do... I feel like my band is poised to fly, and will need to once I get back from Lawrence, in August. I can't have this problem holding us back.




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#1941182 - 05/12/08 01:14 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
Phil W
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Record it, put all the tunes with the worst fills on a tape and send it to him.

I was so glad to turn up to a gig the other day to see the drummer had just kick drum, snare and hi-hat - I knew it was going to be good!

Also, compliment him when he does play more simply and tell him how good his simple grooves sound (lie if necessary). Some people tend to play more busy when it's not working when usually it's better to play less.

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#1941184 - 05/12/08 01:18 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
Chad
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 Originally Posted By: cassius
...It's as if his inner metronome, after two years, has DIED. Not only that, his inner groove seems to have gone with it... and with that, the whole band's collective pocket. Nothing kills a ripping solo like a lost downbeat.

What do I say to him? He's good and he knows it. He's proud of his skills. Whenever I confront him he just talks about being tired or not paying attention. I can tell he's not paying attention--how else could you keep making the same mistake?...


This is not the description of a good drummer. If he won't become one it might be time to find one.
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#1941188 - 05/12/08 01:31 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Chad]
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Offer to take away everything except his kick and snare.
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#1941195 - 05/12/08 01:49 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: saxofunk]
tnb
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Tell him to grow up and quit jerking off on all the songs.
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#1941209 - 05/12/08 02:22 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: tnb]
Joe Bloe
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As your physical/technical abilities grow, it's hard to know when it's too much. You need to emphasize to him when he's over doing it. Offer to give him a song(s) where he can Mongo all over the place on the drums. But talk to him about laying back.

Finding the space in the music is the sign of a true musician. Leaving space in the songs for your band members is just good manners.

Bottom line (pun intended...), communicate. Band members must be able to criticize each other if they intend to grow and improve.
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#1941210 - 05/12/08 02:23 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: tnb]
mattulator
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Sounds like the man has lost interest - at least it sounds like what I do when I lose interest.
Talk to him again. Tell him he can't blow you off. Tell him you need to resolve this now or he has to go.
If that doesn't work, at the end of the next gig grab a mike and say - "Thanks again you guys and by the way, we are currently looking for a new drummer . . . "

I realize that your locale may not be lousy with drummers but dude, it's worth getting a new one if you're losing sleep with the current.
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#1941230 - 05/12/08 03:42 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: mattulator]
jcadmus
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I think Mattulator's got it -- it sounds like the guy is bored. Bored with the material, bored with the gig, who knows?

It's time for a heart-to-heart - preferably away from the gig or rehearsal room, and in a way that won't make him feel backed into a corner. And not just about his drumming, but about his whole deal and where he's at.

But I think you should prepare yourself for the idea that it may be time to part ways. If it comes to that, try to do it in a way that leaves the door open -- who knows his head will be at in a year or two, and you may find it clicks again.
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#1941242 - 05/12/08 04:00 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: mattulator]
cassius
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 Originally Posted By: Chad
This is not the description of a good drummer. If he won't become one it might be time to find one.


He is good. He just... hasn't been lately. Very discombobulated after a good two years.

 Originally Posted By: mattulator
Sounds like the man has lost interest - at least it sounds like what I do when I lose interest.
Talk to him again. Tell him he can't blow you off. Tell him you need to resolve this now or he has to go.
If that doesn't work, at the end of the next gig grab a mike and say - "Thanks again you guys and by the way, we are currently looking for a new drummer . . . "


I think you have nailed it about the lost interest. I'll keep talking to him. As for grabbing the mic and... well. It's hard, we've been friends for oh so many years (let me count... at least 11).

 Originally Posted By: mattulator
...your locale may not be lousy with drummers but dude, it's worth getting a new one if you're losing sleep with the current.


I've played with one drummer who I can say would make a good replacement on a technical level. Most drummers here... our drummer could STILL eat them for breakfast. Big time. Now, replacing him on a spiritual level, I'm not so sure it can be done. When your band is three longtime friends it's very hard to think someone could replace someone else without completely changing the band.

Tool fans, you may want to read the new "all Tool issue" of Revolver, at least just check out the first page of the Aenima section when you see it on the magazine rack. The part where Maynard talks about running around in circles trying to get things in gear for that album before they had to fire Paul. I don't think our situation is that dire though... I hope it's not.

If we could just get him to play like Steve Jordan! And I know he could.

I will talk to him. Thanks for the advice. I doubt he'll be leaving us, at least not without some more shoddy gigs in his name. Guitarist Man and I will have said enough to him by then.
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#1941265 - 05/12/08 04:50 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
SeamyD
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I actually think that ya's need to look to your collective goals, friends should be able to sit down and talk stuff over. maybe the band has been working to much on the same material, a little space can sometimes be a good thing.
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#1941281 - 05/12/08 05:47 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: SeamyD]
Chewbubba
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Sounds like he's already checked out of the band mentally. It's going to be tough to convince him that it's important when he obviously feels like it isn't.
It's a tough spot to be in. Are you guys playing stuff he likes or is really interested in? Maybe he's bored with the current songs.

I hope you can resolve this without giving him the boot. That always sucks.

I forgot the whole reason I was going to post: "skibbly-blam-boom" made me smile.
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#1941347 - 05/12/08 08:49 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Chewbubba]
natobasso
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Have him listen to some Steve Gadd instead of Neil Peart and Carter Beauford. He'll feel the difference. \:\)
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#1941351 - 05/12/08 09:07 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: natobasso]
dcr
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Or better yet, some Al Jackson Jr.

Hopefully this is something you can talk through as friends.
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#1941355 - 05/12/08 09:33 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: dcr]
Kramer Ferrington III.
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Well, tell him that songs are usually meant to be like progressions, or processes. I don't mean in the chord sense, I mean in the development sense, where they start off small and progress over the space of 3.5 minutes into something or other (usually a big noisy repeated chorus at the end, but that's life)

Explain to him that if he wastes the good bits at the beginning of the song then there's no surprise element left and it screws up the song.
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#1941364 - 05/12/08 09:55 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
jlrush
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Cassius, maybe he will come around by the time you get back from Lawrence. Some time off is probably what he needs, especially if you guys have been hitting the practice room really hard. That can be a whole other deal in itself. I find that I do my best playing with little to no practice and I'm forced to come through at crunch time.
I can relate that he may be playing too much, and maybe that's his way of not dealing with what's really bothering him.
Good luck.
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#1941383 - 05/13/08 12:34 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: jlrush]
Davo-London
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As a drummer I don't believe that once you've got the groove you can lose it. I think what has been said above is spot on. Assuming he is substance and alcohol free then he has cerebrally checked out.

Does he do any solos? Can you arrange some fancy drum-based intros. Are ther other ways for him to regain his interest? Get a female singer. That night work. It work's for me.

Shallow moi?

Oh, finally, whoever is band leader should tell him. If you don't have a band leader then this could be a small part of the problem. I usually play for the leader. It is she who I like to impress.

Davo
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#1941390 - 05/13/08 01:29 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Davo-London]
Davo-London
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PS Skibbly-blam-boom is a very strong part of my repertoire.


Don't knock it : )

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#1941445 - 05/13/08 05:26 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
Phil W
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 Originally Posted By: Kramer Ferrington III.


Explain to him that if he wastes the good bits at the beginning of the song then there's no surprise element left and it screws up the song.


I liked that (and the rest of the post).

Somebody had to say something similar to me once. I was throwing all sorts of flash rhythmic licks in over a tune (sorry!) and someone told me - "You have to be a witty bass player.

If you can sell it to him in terms of creating art - it's like a storyteller building tension or using certain devices at certain point or a visual artist using a small amount of red on a grey picture - his fills will sound much, much better if they are played less; if he plays a solid groove and just throws in one little lick at the right point he will impress people rather then hear that he's just a busy drummer. most of us want to impress (and drummers especially want to impress).

Use psychology too and praise him when he plays less (even if he doesn't) ;\)

This is a problem with some drummers (and some bassplayers too): they are more concerned with the flashy bits than the bread and butter. They don't usually get the work. There's a reason why guys like Harvey Mason, Steve Gadd, Al Jackson, Steve Jordan and others are revered. Yes, he might be able to play like that (technically) but part of the deal is to have the listening and perceptive skills to choose to play like that. That is part of becoming a good musician.

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#1941482 - 05/13/08 06:38 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Phil W]
cassius
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 Originally Posted By: Kramer Ferrington III.
Well, tell him that songs are usually meant to be like progressions, or processes. Explain to him that if he wastes the good bits at the beginning of the song then there's no surprise element left and it screws up the song.


Agreed. I have had to learn this too. The guitarist learned it first and had to teach it to me. And 'tis a very good point and an approach I haven't taken with our drummer on a verbal level yet.

 Originally Posted By: jlrush
Cassius, maybe he will come around by the time you get back from Lawrence. Some time off is probably what he needs, especially if you guys have been hitting the practice room really hard. That can be a whole other deal in itself. I find that I do my best playing with little to no practice and I'm forced to come through at crunch time.


Thing is, we don't have time to practice. It's embarassing, but since we all work and are students, we have time only to gig, not to practice. It helps that we're improvisers. Since we gig a lot, we stay tight (guitar and I). The short of it though is that I don't think he practices by himself even, whereas I am always thinking about the material and engaging it in my head even during Organic Chemistry Lab or what have you. The contention that he might be bored is probably accurate based on his behavior...

But WHY? is what I want to ask him. Our material is often more challenging than that of some of our favorite bands, and he has admitted this quite a few times. For instance, when we heard the new Black Crowes tune, "We Who See The Deep", he and I both commented that the rhythm section is very laid back in a successful way. But he never internalizes the lesson in that. I don't get it.

 Originally Posted By: Davo-London
Does he do any solos? Can you arrange some fancy drum-based intros. Are ther other ways for him to regain his interest?


Funny... one of our first and most successful tunes is a piece I wrote called "Hat Trick" and I forced him to play a four-bar solo close to the beginning of the song. It's now kind of a signature thing for him. But see, even there, he's sort of lost it lately. There are times he's played it and I thought I was high it was so good. Anymore it's like you're following along in your head wincing at each error. I think he's mentally checked out, but the material is far from simple.

 Originally Posted By: Davo-London
PS Skibbly-blam-boom is a very strong part of my repertoire. Don't knock it.


Sorry brother. Y'know, when my drummer skibbly-blams, it can be good. It has in the past, no lie.

 Originally Posted By: Phil W
Somebody had to say something similar to me once. I was throwing all sorts of flash rhythmic licks in over a tune (sorry!) and someone told me - "You have to be a witty bass player.

Use psychology too and praise him when he plays less (even if he doesn't) ;\)

This is a problem with some drummers (and some bassplayers too): they are more concerned with the flashy bits than the bread and butter. They don't usually get the work. There's a reason why guys like Harvey Mason, Steve Gadd, Al Jackson, Steve Jordan and others are revered. Yes, he might be able to play like that (technically) but part of the deal is to have the listening and perceptive skills to choose to play like that. That is part of becoming a good musician.


Thanks for the support Phil. I do try to praise him--when he doesn't botch a slow tune or something I tell him how great the groove felt. Etc.

Bread and butter. Absolutely. I think the previous contention that he might cool down while I'm away could be true, but I don't want to sit on it for ten weeks with our two or three sparse gigs, come back, and find out that he has actually done nothing to improve.

Whatever the case I appreciate everyone's advice. Thank you.
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#1941541 - 05/13/08 08:24 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
CMDN
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Dude. Take the direct approach.
Taint punch.
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#1941544 - 05/13/08 08:34 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: CMDN]
DavidMPires
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Call Chuck norris and he'll punch your drummer.......
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#1941551 - 05/13/08 08:44 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: DavidMPires]
natobasso
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 Originally Posted By: DavidMPires
Call Chuck norris and he'll punch your drummer.......


But the drummer won't survive that! \:\)
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#1941613 - 05/13/08 10:28 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: natobasso]
Bumpcity
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 Originally Posted By: natobasso
 Originally Posted By: DavidMPires
Call Chuck norris and he'll punch your drummer.......


But the drummer won't survive that! \:\)


All the more reason to call Chuck.
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#1941626 - 05/13/08 10:58 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: CMDN]
cassius
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 Originally Posted By: CMDN
Dude. Take the direct approach.
Taint punch.


Where have you been all my life?????????questionmark!
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#1941646 - 05/13/08 11:38 AM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
Rowbee
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You need to clear the air with him or get another drummer. One of my bands had the same issue with someone we still consider to be a very good friend. He was so disinterested that it almost felt like he was willfully sabotaging gigs. Things are much better since we replaced him with someone who is keen to make us sound the best we can be.

Of course, as some others have suggested, he may just not have learnt taste and restraint yet.
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#1941654 - 05/13/08 12:06 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Rowbee]
cassius
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The biggest problem with kicking him out would be getting a new drummer! Most Springfield drummers are chumps. I can think of three I respect, five if you count ones that moved to one of the Coasts.
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#1941697 - 05/13/08 01:25 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: cassius]
TimR
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Same tunes? Same night of the week? Same bar? Groundhog day?

Time for some downtime, a few new tunes and a different bar?
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#1941719 - 05/13/08 04:13 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: TimR]
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It's tough to play the same tunes with the same band to the same audience on a regular basis. Either you get really bored and start "phoning it in", you start "experimenting", or you accept your situation and give it your all. If you were in a major name band, you might have to play your hits note-for-note at every show for the rest of your life.

Learn some new tunes. And while you are learning them, emphasize that you and the guitarist are learning parts exactly as they are on the recording and it would be nice if the drummer did the same.

When you get to Lawrence, Kansas, say hi to Dave Wendler.
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#1941721 - 05/13/08 04:20 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: jeremy c]
Big Red 67
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Easy. Stop playing Neil Peart on every FOCKING song. I mean it sounds great when it is Rush not so good for Erik Clapton.
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#1941844 - 05/13/08 08:34 PM Re: How to make a drummer stop going "Skibbly-blam-boom" [Re: Big Red 67]
Frank M
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My parents once told me if you play skibbly-blam-boom backwards you get messages from Satan!

Cas is right. When I was in Ohio I could be on two, three projects at once, all part time. Here in Eastern Washington they have bassists falling out of trees (more on the lower order primates later). Drummers - in Seattle (big city with unique music scene) or Pullman (college town), there are 800 and only 16 have kits. I live in between; I'm using a guy who is up here twice a month from Portland, OR for business. Reliable, solid pocket drummers are very few and hard to get. Most won't commit to a band, they can make too much money grafting a band with a gig but no drummer.


Edited by Frank M (05/13/08 08:35 PM)
Edit Reason: duh!
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