#1941172 - 05/12/08 12:58 PM
Can one learn to sing?
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MONTUNOMAN
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I always thought that good singers just had a natural talent for singing. Maybe some take lessons to improve thier voice but they would probably would still sound pleasant without training (I'm talking about pop music)
this year I've starting playing solo gigs (so far I only do instrument version of pop,jazz,Latin, standards,country,and rock)
People offten ask me to sing something. the only singing I've done was in my college sight singing classes and I sing when I transcribe stuff off recording to match the pitch on the piano and to learn the parts better. So I guess I can sing on pitch but as far as a pleasant voice, I don't think I have one. Could vocal lessons help?
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#1941181 - 05/12/08 01:14 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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timwat
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As a "singing non-singer", I'll vote a qualified "yes".
Voice is obviously the most personal of all instruments. So natural talent (or perhaps better, potential?) is most immediately obvious.
But having taken some voice lessons this year (up to now a non-singer my whole life - a long story I won't bore you with), there's plenty for non-singers (or, perhaps, un-naturally talented?) to learn from a good instructor.
There are the obvious physicalities of breathing, pitch, diaphragmatic support, etc. Getting these things under control will help you make it through a whole set intact.
But there are also matters of phrasing, timbre production, appropriate pronunciation, etc. that would help you make the most of whatever God's gifted you with.
I know I don't have a pleasant voice, but at least I'm more able to lead a small congregation through a set of songs without permanently scarring anyone's ears.
Facility with voice, like any musical instrument, benefits from correct technique and disciplined practice. The hard part is finding a qualified instructor with a background in good technique.
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#1941199 - 05/12/08 01:59 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: timwat]
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MikeT156
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Unless you are tone deaf (your post says you're not) you can certainly improve on what you have by taking voice lessons from a qualified professional. You have to be able to at least carry a tune for starters, if you're a mono tone, you're dead in the water. You can improve your pitch, your breath control, and learn how to sing using your diaphragm which will help you avoid using your throat to sing and then get hoarse. Timwat is correct in his assessment of what you will cover with a good instructor. The good news is you don't have to take lessons for years to improve upon what you have. And as Timwat also said, finding a good teacher where you live is the most difficult thing. Its well worth-while to give it a serious try.
Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Mk III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist. Lots of Amps, mixers, PA speakers!
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#1941206 - 05/12/08 02:16 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: timwat]
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AUSSIEKEYS
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of coarse you can learn to sing,everything is practise.
I do believe there are natural singers.But this is not a limitation to non natural singers.
I was born a natural artist, read: drawing,painting..it came naturally,and I was always the artist to everyone, eventually having my own graphic design/art studio.
and its also true a non artist can draw with practise...you just may need a lot more than a natural artist.
but even though i made my living as a singer too.....I believe I wasnt born a natural singer,although my dad was a singing teacher after my birth...
I remember being asked to join my first band as the front man,didnt think i could sing but they probably picked up that because I had learnt piano,at least I knew when I was flat but I couldnt always sing on key..
but with years of singing as front man it started to come to me,eventually I was asked by a local music studio to teach singing,
Ironically I had never taken a lesson [well one and it was so embarrasing] even though my father was a teacher..it was too embarrassing to learn from your old man,upon telling him the news he gave me some quick lessons and more importantly taught me how to teach....
I had for years sat in on his students every wednesday night while waiting to continue from his studio to my next appointment.So i had a background to teaching from just sitting there.
My own voice in that period of teaching literally soared because now i was doing the same lessons with the students 6 or 7 times a night,a point that practise works wonders,and after this I was singing in a duo 3 nights a week sharing vocals of around 30 songs a night..this also was more practise.
so from a person who had no idea to someone who could entertain an audience I would say yes lessons/practise is/are essential.
natural talent or not...for if you dont use it ,it does deteriate ,although it can easily be brought back with more practise.
and i had students who were natural and literally in weeks were able to perform,and had others who it was months,and one girl who was passed onto me the day I started teaching as hopless,tone deaf...well she was the only one who never missed a lesson,and was so determined,that she was still with me 3 years later when I gave up teaching,she still was not capable of performing professionally but she could finally sing in front of friends and hold a tune..she most proved my point..given up by others as a hopless case...3 years later she was just starting to get it...she asked to continue lessons with my father, but as the studio was not happy loosing a student,i never knew if she made it finally or not...so practise can even improve those so called hopless cases.
My dad at 84 now is still belting it out,a little frail a person but still a big voice,although he does think he is too scared to record now.
so lessons, practise and performing essential ingrediants to a good voice...if you never perform to an audience even your family you will never have the confidence to belt out those difficult notes,
so get in and do it.
I have to add I believe a singinmg teacher should teach with an inastrument,piano or guitar...not a tape
that would be one way to help pick out a teacher...
if you cant prove a note/s by playing it/them then its your word against them...many teachers can pass on thier bad habits...be careful.
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#1941211 - 05/12/08 02:27 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: AUSSIEKEYS]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Yes, you can learn to sing.
And people who have natural talent can get even better through vocal lessons.
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#1941223 - 05/12/08 03:27 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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MONTUNOMAN
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Thanks for the words of encoragment- I'm not tone deaf. I just have a "functional" singing voice (I can intervals, scales, and even complete instrumental jazz solos- but it doesn't sound pretty, my voice for the most part is in tune and I know when it's not.
There's a guy in my area but he only teaches his students opera,
claiming if they can sing opera they can sing anything. I just think that's all he can sing. If I want to sing pop music shouldn't find a teacher that sings and teaches pop music?
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#1941233 - 05/12/08 03:46 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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timwat
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Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
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my voice for the most part is in tune and I know when it's not.
My teacher often reminds me being able to internally 'hear' intonation and intervals is the whole deal - correcting your pitch is the easy part. And practice makes intonation more accurate and easier.
There's a guy in my area but he only teaches his students opera, claiming if they can sing opera they can sing anything. I just think that's all he can sing. If I want to sing pop music shouldn't find a teacher that sings and teaches pop music?
A big "It Depends." If he's teaching good technique, that will take you a long way. Consider the classical piano teacher that gets all your fingering, wrist position, harmony and theory grounded when you're a kid.
Obviously, if he 'forces' you into one genre and has no understanding (or tolerance) to embrace other genres, could be a long row for you to hoe. But if I had to choose between opera guy who teaches you good technique and a great pop singer who doesn't teach/understand good mechanics I'd go with the 1st guy every day of the week.
That's not to say those polar extremes are your only two options of course. But fundamentals were everything for me; I was just fortunate to find a guy whose teaching experience embraces both classical and popular music.
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#1941235 - 05/12/08 03:53 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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delirium
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sure you can learn to sing, look at him:
self taught singer...
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#1941239 - 05/12/08 03:57 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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FIREBIRD
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A couple of weeks ago, someone told my 14yr old to watch a show similar to American Idol called Can You Duet on CMT. I taped several shows, and the family sat down to watch - although we are not really big country music fans, we all felt the shows were just as entertaining as Idol, with less stupidity.
Again, three judges, including the oldest Judd(Mom) However, on like the 4th episode, this voice coach "to the stars" met with each duet for his help. He gave them all very good tips that I found were specific to their needs and really improved their sound.
Last year we had our 10 year old in voice lessons for 12 weeks and she really improved enough that I recorded her singing "Frosty the Snowman" to include in our Christmas cards, and her school played it over the intercom many times. Her lessons really just included breathing techniques and crisper voicing, and I am now recording her on several songs through my Motif, and utilizing the effects and EQ's that are available - heck even I can sound better than Tony Romo singing Take Me Out to the Ballgame with these tools.
We are looking for a new voice teacher now for her, as I saw with her most voices can be tuned like any instrument with the right teacher.
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#1941241 - 05/12/08 04:00 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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AUSSIEKEYS
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quote
There's a guy in my area but he only teaches his students opera,
claiming if they can sing opera they can sing anything. I just think that's all he can sing. If I want to sing pop music shouldn't find a teacher that sings and teaches pop music?
unquote
well, I dont disagree with him really.
but I will state that I was asked to teach singing I imagine for the rock and pop singers because that was what i was doing,there was another teacher teaching classical.
So it was good to have a teacher that could relate...but to be honest the basics should be the same for all forms...if you dont get the basics right you will never sing correctly...the idiosycrocies each style should only be the quirk you apply to the basics.
My father taught Classical, pop and country and western.
You see he first sung as a 17 year old in WW2 to his mates on the pacific islands.Country and western was pop music in those days,thats his love of country,when he trained as a singer he was taught classical, and when he taught the students wanted pop.
So you take the basics of classical,his love of country and the desire of students for pop [60s thru to 90s being his hey day for pop.]and you use it for the better.
but basically learning classically is the building block.
try him out for a few sessions,you will see if you feel comfortable..make sure he plays an instrument though.
If you can
i believe a good teacher will teach you the basics whether they are classical or not..I wouldn' dismiss him for that reason..
had my health stayed with me my next aspiration was to train for opera,to me the ultimate in strength....but rock and pop was my bread and butter.
approach him,talk,find out if he accepts that you are wanting singing for a different style,
for if he doesnt accept your style you may find yourself at loggerheads.
I hid the classical training I gave to my students by allowing them one piece of msic of their choice each lesson.
this kept them happy, while they still had to sing excerpts from the sound of music [for the appropriate person]
you will find that students bring in the most daftest,hardest pop songs to sing,with no realisation that its way beyond them...so we must secretly pick thru their pieces and choose wisely...some teachers wont allow you to sing any of your own music...but I believe a student has come to enjoy learning...if they cant sing a song they know,what the point of coming...
it should not be an entirely schoolroom experience...the student must feel they are heading to their goal too,not a teachers goal.
but a good teacher will not ignor the basics of classical training...he may disguise it a little,if it needs to be diguised to a particular student...
then again some teachers think they are god...
to me my next teacher will have to be a performer or ex performer because that is my background.
To me singing was only for performance not something to simply pleassure myself...but to a lot of students thats all they want...and who is to say thats right or wrong.
perhaps a good teacher is a wise person who makes you feel comfortable, and happy to be learning from them.
and with a firm grounding in the classical basics of singing.
and an understanding or acceptance of various styles,but not necessarily all of them .
Edited by AUSSIEKEYS (05/12/08 04:02 PM)
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#1941244 - 05/12/08 04:02 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: AUSSIEKEYS]
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forceman
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Yeah, I would think learning classical singing (opera) would be a major bonus, not a detriment...
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#1941274 - 05/12/08 05:29 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: AUSSIEKEYS]
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Moonglow
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I always thought that good singers were “blessed” with a voice, with biological factors setting the upper limit to one’s range and quality of tone. I get how lessons can help folks sing in tune, but can they dramatically improve one’s tone and range? Given a good teacher and commitment to daily practice, in general, how much improvement in range and tone can be reasonably expected within one year?
Edited by Moonglow (05/12/08 05:38 PM)
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"Music is the breath of God speaking to man's soul, so we musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear His voice, we read His lips..... That is why musicians are honorable." - Beethoven
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#1941280 - 05/12/08 05:47 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Moonglow]
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MONTUNOMAN
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Moonglow, you expressed exactly what I wanted to say.
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#1941285 - 05/12/08 05:55 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Moonglow]
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Bill H.
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I've been a singing keyboard player for over 35 years. I certainly wasn't blessed with the best voice (or the best keyboard chops either) but have always worked because I know how to get the most out of what I have.
I wouldn't take classical voice lessons. I did that once early on, and looking back on it I think it was mostly a waste of time. When you are singing in clubs you just get better by doing it all the time.
If you have anything there vocally you can sing a few songs. You will be very pleased how singing even just some will open the room up to you.
Vocals connect. I can't encourage you enough to try it out. Go through your repertoire and look for a couple of easy ones with limited range at first. Don't worry about whether you think your voice is pleasant or not. It really doesn't matter if you are just tossing a couple out there for now. And a lot of guys have made a lot of money with what are objectively rough harsh voices.
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#1941294 - 05/12/08 06:19 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Bill H.]
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Dave Ferris
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I didn't start till much later in life.
I had one opera type teacher for about 3 years, I have mixed feeling about him. I did make progress but also blew out my voice quite a bit by overloading my chest voice and pushing too hard too high. He didn't teach or stress the mix/head voice thing that is so important. The present guy I've been with for about 3.5 yrs. is much more technical and thorough. I wish I had gone his route 20 yrs. ago, I'd be a lot further along today. We work on a lot of different patterns, I bring my songs in and he offers suggestions, usually on enunciation, keeping the "word or vowel" "forward" is a very big thing in singing. It really is a lot about technique. On the other hand, I know many incredible "natural"singers that have never taken a lesson. They've been at it over 30 yrs. with a lifetime of experience.....it's pretty hard to "teach" that.
Basically, it's another instrument, like the piano. The more you put in, the more you get out. Find songs that suit your voice, transpose down if necessary. Seek out a good teacher (easier said than done....in LA, everyone is a "voice teacher"and boasts a client list of "stars"), like piano it can save you years of spinning your wheels. If you're not sure if one particular teacher is right for you...move on. Use your instincts.
If you want it bad enough it can be had....I was not a natural but through a lot of hard work, sound pretty decent these days.
This was 2 yrs. ago. and still a work in progress.
http://www.divshare.com/download/2547196-543
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#1941300 - 05/12/08 06:41 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Moonglow]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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I always thought that good singers were “blessed” with a voice, with biological factors setting the upper limit to one’s range and quality of tone. I get how lessons can help folks sing in tune, but can they dramatically improve one’s tone and range?
Training in proper technique will help maximize whatever potential fledgling singers do have available to them. Range can be expanded, tone can be refined. Some of it is the instrument you're born with, but lots of people (self included) took dramatic strides from some proper instruction. I sang in college and it completely changed my approach to singing, even though I do pop/rock vocals and my college singing was classical.
I don't think I have a terrific voice, mind you, but it's workable, and much better than it would have been if I did it without learning how.
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#1941304 - 05/12/08 06:53 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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delirium
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Rod Steward has terrible voice but nice timbre and he managed somehow...
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#1941305 - 05/12/08 06:55 PM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: AUSSIEKEYS]
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suraci
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for the encouragement factor
Try listening to Bob Dylan, or Rolling Stones' lead singer
this experience should bolster confidence significantly assuming you have raw talent
lacking either requisite talent or still not convinced you CAN sing try out Madonna
or better yet, some of the metal groups who sound to me like they are screaming inside the seventh circle mentioned by Dante
of course you can sing
just keep doing it
use reverb liberally
you'll be fine
Edited by suraci (05/12/08 06:57 PM)
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#1941453 - 05/13/08 05:40 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Tusker]
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Phil W
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I'm sure it's purely a matter of practice but I just seem to have no real control of the pitch that my voice produces. I know the pitch I want to sing, I hear it in my head but I seem to have little physical control of the pitch that comes out - other than to hear how wrong it is compared to what I know I'm trying to sing.
If I play fretless or upright bass and I hear I'm out, I can quickly adjust up or down. If I sing I seem not to be able to make the adjustments well. I guess I have spent many more hours playing instruments than singing though.
And I do backing vocals for professional gigs (badly).
Sorry Montunoman, that's not so relevant to your issue.
I guess that, like you, I just need some decent lessons and a lot of practice.
I have a lot further to go though!
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#1941463 - 05/13/08 06:14 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: AUSSIEKEYS]
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stepay
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I'm inclined to agree with those saying that YES you can improve singing with instruction (unless as Mike says you are tone deaf), but I'm probably more inclined to think of innate talent as a HUGE limiting factor than most. I don't believe, for example, that practice on anything can make you better to the point of actually being good. There's the law of diminishing returns that needs to be applied. Everyone has varying degrees of talent that can be maximized with practice, but person A will be at a different level than person B. I've used this example before, but while I have some talent for music in general and piano playing specifically, I could NEVER be as good as Billy Preston was. No amount of practice or instruction could make me as good as he was.
So, YES, you can get better, so go ahead and practice. Everyone has a ceiling, and the practice will tell you where that ceiling is.
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#1941494 - 05/13/08 07:02 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: stepay]
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Phred
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I started singing about 10 years ago. At that point my highest note was a E. I could hit F on a good day.
Today my Highest note is a G#, A on a good day.
A major third in 10 years. In 10 more years I'll be able to sing 'We are the Champions'.
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#1941520 - 05/13/08 07:43 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Phred]
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stepay
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I started singing about 10 years ago. At that point my highest note was a E. I could hit F on a good day.
Today my Highest note is a G#, A on a good day.
A major third in 10 years. In 10 more years I'll be able to sing 'We are the Champions'.
Except that with the Law of Diminishing Returns you likely won't improve at the same rate -- actually the law says you won't.
Besides (and I realize you were being humorous), there's much more to singing well than hitting high notes.
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"Do the chickens have large talons?"
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#1941537 - 05/13/08 08:18 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: stepay]
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MONTUNOMAN
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Doesn't the voice naturally lower as we age? For example it sounds to like Elton John has lowered the keys of his tunes quite a bit. I also heard that Robert Plant had to change the keys on the Led Zeplin reunion shows.
maybe they are "untrained" singers and used their voices incorrectly for all those years??? However I saw Artha Frankin last year and she sounded great- it didn't sound like the keys had changed, however I'm not sure. also I'm not sure if she recieved vocal training or not but I think she is in the same age range as the Elton John and Robert Plant (maybe even older?)
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#1941555 - 05/13/08 08:48 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: MONTUNOMAN]
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Sven Golly
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Doesn't the voice naturally lower as we age? For example it sounds to like Elton John has lowered the keys of his tunes quite a bit. I also heard that Robert Plant had to change the keys on the Led Zeplin reunion shows.
maybe they are "untrained" singers and used their voices incorrectly for all those years??? However I saw Artha Frankin last year and she sounded great- it didn't sound like the keys had changed, however I'm not sure. also I'm not sure if she recieved vocal training or not but I think she is in the same age range as the Elton John and Robert Plant (maybe even older?)
Apples and oranges; Aretha got her vocal training in church choirs, and (more than likely) has taken great care of her voice over the span of her career.
Sir Elton and Mr. Plant spent years debauching themselves on the road, imbibing any number of substances that degenerate the entire body, never mind just the vocal cords.
A highly unfair comparison in my mind.
That being said, all three are still wonderful vocalists (well, Aretha and Bobby... Elton's always been a little hit or miss on the vocals in my opinion).
And yes, your vocal cords will naturally lose some of their ability over time; just like any other part of the body, things break down. How much longevity you get depends on how you treat it, much like most everything else.
Vocal ability is trainable, much like everything else in life. How much you can do depends largely on physical factors (the physiology of the vocal cords will largely determine your natural range) as well as talent (see the 'tone deaf' discussions above); but anyone with the basic building blocks can be taught *how* to sing 'properly'*.
* = 'properly' opens up a huge can of worms... I, for one, prefer the Seth Riggs school of teaching, but there are lots of detractors... <shrug> To each their own, I suppose.
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Without music life would be a mistake. ~Nietzsche
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#1941595 - 05/13/08 09:53 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Sven Golly]
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MikeT156
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As far as losing the upper end of your range, I recall an interview with Paul McCartney some years ago and he mentioned that he was having a little difficulty with some of the higher notes as he has gotten older. I have some VHS tapes of some of his performances when he was on tour in 2001 and "some" of his higher notes were a bit raspy (is that a word?) but then he was singing every night of the week during the tour, for several hours, plus the sound check. Age or not, that will make anybody's voice raspy at the high end. Especially when you sing "rock" songs. With voice training your voice becomes more durable, but your voice was never meant to sing every night of the week for 3 or 4 hours or longer, as well as talk all day any more than a major league pitcher's arm was meant to pitch 100 pitches a day. Your vocal chords, as well as the rest of your body, need rest. My voice teacher told me that "Yelling at the crowd, or shouting of any kind was out of the question". He also said that in conversations with patrons when on break, "Let them do the talking". Singing is the easy part if you use your head and stick within your voice range. So far, at age 60 I haven't lost any of my vocal range, but I'm not singing 6 nights a week, 4 hours a night like I was back in the eighties when I was on the road.
Mike T.
Edited by MikeT156 (05/13/08 09:56 AM)
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Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Mk III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist. Lots of Amps, mixers, PA speakers!
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#1941600 - 05/13/08 10:06 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: Moonglow]
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BluesKeys
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 2544
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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I always thought that good singers were “blessed” with a voice, with biological factors setting the upper limit to one’s range and quality of tone. I get how lessons can help folks sing in tune, but can they dramatically improve one’s tone and range? Given a good teacher and commitment to daily practice, in general, how much improvement in range and tone can be reasonably expected within one year?
Moonglow, I can say with a good vocal coach your range can increase within several lessons. Case in point my girlfriend/chic singer and I are both taking lessons. For me it is more about my transition from full voice to falsetto that I am working on. With my chic it is her range which was very short and she has in a couple of months added an entire octave plus to her range. It has to do with warm ups and using your head voice. The exercises seem bizarre but really work, like motorboating your lips and singing through them scales or triads. Hard to explain, but it gets you "mask" right which I call the head voice.
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#1941621 - 05/13/08 10:50 AM
Re: Can one learn to sing?
[Re: BluesKeys]
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Cliffk
Gold Member
Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 756
Loc: London
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However naturally-talented someone is, they can never go wrong with vocal lessons from a good teacher though, as others have said, tone-deafness can't be helped at all. In your case, you'll definitely benefit in terms of range and control. Noticing progress breeds confidence breeds motivation breeds ... you know the score. Good luck.
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