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#1942714 - 05/15/08 04:34 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
kanker.
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I attended public school and I think I turned out well.
Public schools, and the educational system in general, have changed into institutions of educational experimentation, social engineering, and political indoctrination. They need to get the politics out and get back to just teaching essentials.
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#1942731 - 05/15/08 05:36 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: kanker.]
SK
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Yes, DH, the public school system here is not what it was when you (and I) went to school.
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#1942745 - 05/15/08 06:20 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: SK]
Bill Heins
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Rome fell not from barbarian invasions from without but from corruption and decay from within. The same is happening to Western Civilization. Failing schools are just part of the larger picture.

As it was said, "I have seen the enemy and he is us"!

Frankly I think the world is slowly going to hell in a hand basket...but I'm gonna have a good time on the trip ;\)

Bill
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#1942752 - 05/15/08 06:53 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Bill Heins]
forceman
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Slowly?
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#1942787 - 05/15/08 09:50 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: forceman]
Magpel
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Whether the thesis is valid, is it not ironic that this supposedly "hard-nosed" assessment of today's flabby-minded narcissistic youth--presumably written by someone from an older, better era--is presented in the softest, flabbiest and least critical argumentative form available to any writer--a top 10 list? "8 reasons," rather.

FWIW, I taught college English full-time from '85--'96, took an eight year hiatus, and taught three more years as an adjunct, for the sheer hell of it, in '04 - '06. At my school at least, the quality of writing and thinking rose sharply in the interim. I attribute some of this to the penetration of critical thinking and process-based composition instruction into the lower grades, and part to the rising admission standards of the particular school at which I taught--which were due in part to an influx of top shelf students driven to state schools by the increasingly outlandish tuition at elite private schools.

I am skeptical of golden ages generally. I see a lot of smart kids. Fifth graders in my town are learning and creating things at a level of sophistication far beyond what I was doing in 1973.

As to the role of the Internet...hoo boy. Big old can of worms. I would agree that it has radically restructured "social discourse," but has it restructured the human mind? Eh, that sounds like either a technophile's ecstatic hyperbole or a technophobe's dystopia...




Edited by Magpel (05/15/08 09:57 PM)

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#1942823 - 05/16/08 03:05 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Magpel]
Dave Horne
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Rome fell .... ? I didn't get the memo.
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#1942824 - 05/16/08 03:27 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
Tusker
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It seems to me there is a lot of energy spent these days comparing the USA to major historical powers. Paul Kennedy's book (The rise and fall of the great powers) was the first one I ran across. I found it instructive. There are others.

Whether you buy the analogies or not ... this desire to look for similarities to others, rather than unique differences ... suggests a certain maturing and mortality.

Jerry


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#1942844 - 05/16/08 05:20 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
kad
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Rome fell .... ? I didn't get the memo.


We should make sure Marino knows about this!
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#1942853 - 05/16/08 05:51 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: kanker.]
Joe Muscara
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 Originally Posted By: kanker.
Public schools, and the educational system in general, have changed into institutions of educational experimentation, social engineering, and political indoctrination. They need to get the politics out and get back to just teaching essentials.
Sorry for being curious/nosy, but you've mentioned along these lines before and also that you have at least one kid, a daughter, so I'm wondering what you're doing as far as her education. I guess I'm usually curious about what people say vs. how they actually implement it. \:\)

(I'm not happy with the state of schools in general, but we don't have kids nor do we plan to.)

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#1942886 - 05/16/08 06:55 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Joe Muscara]
Eric Iverson
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Well, public schools vary widely in the quality of education they offer, for many reasons.

There are other options: private schools if you can afford them, and home schooling (which I have mixed feeling about).

Even if your public school is less than ideal (not talking about places that are run by the gangs and drug dealers!), you can still teach your kids things at home, or at least EXPOSE them to information they may not be getting there!

In the interest of full disclosure, I never had kids, and at 55 with a 60 year old wife, I don't think it's likely!

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#1942960 - 05/16/08 08:52 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Joe Muscara]
kanker.
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 Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
 Originally Posted By: kanker.
Public schools, and the educational system in general, have changed into institutions of educational experimentation, social engineering, and political indoctrination. They need to get the politics out and get back to just teaching essentials.
Sorry for being curious/nosy, but you've mentioned along these lines before and also that you have at least one kid, a daughter, so I'm wondering what you're doing as far as her education. I guess I'm usually curious about what people say vs. how they actually implement it. \:\)

(I'm not happy with the state of schools in general, but we don't have kids nor do we plan to.)
Well, not only am I (subjectively) not much of a fan of the American educational system, but I live in a decent neighborhood that happens to be (objectively) in a truly horrible school district. My daughter's gone through Catholic schools the entire way mostly because of the latter. Since I'm generally the one picking her up from school and therefore am around while she's working on her homework, I can monitor how she's being taught, so when I see something that I take issue with I can stop her and have her do a little critical thinking about the matter to help her come to her own conclusion on the topic. I'm not going to lie, I'll often tell he what I think about a topic, but she understands that I really do want her to draw her own conclusions, to think independently, and to question 'authority' at every turn instead of just believing what she's taught blindly. Thankfully, this means there are things on which my daughter and I don't agree - for now. ;\)
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#1942969 - 05/16/08 09:10 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: kanker.]
Dave Horne
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Every once in a while I have a discussion with my brother who lives in Philadelphia. He sent his kids (now adults) to private Catholic schools. The city of Philadelphia paid for transportation of his kids to go to their private schools. That never made sense to me.

The city government (and perhaps the public school budget) has less money because of the added expense of sending private students to their private schools.

He would complain that he was forced to pay school tax for schools he didn't use.
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#1942976 - 05/16/08 09:19 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
Joe Muscara
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Personally, I must have been lucky. Other people complained about the school system I was in, but I got a lot out of it, and we did study a bit of art and music. Objectively, I don't know how they rated nor if it was just me that was lucky. Since then, I have not looked at any school systems closely but from things I've heard, I'm glad I don't have to.
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#1943047 - 05/16/08 11:14 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
wmp
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Every once in a while I have a discussion with my brother who lives in Philadelphia. He sent his kids (now adults) to private Catholic schools. The city of Philadelphia paid for transportation of his kids to go to their private schools. That never made sense to me.

The city government (and perhaps the public school budget) has less money because of the added expense of sending private students to their private schools.

He would complain that he was forced to pay school tax for schools he didn't use.


That's the deal. Everybody pays for public education whether they use it or not. He pays double because he wants the kids in private school. He get's a break on the deal because Philly picks up the trasportation cost. A heck of a lot cheaper than providing transportation plus the school. Philly gets a break, your brother gets a break. So what the heck is he griping about? I have no kids or grandkids to milk the cow and I've been paying for decades. I'm getting hosed.

I thought the Boston Public Schools were pretty darn good. I learned most of what I needed to know about music by the sixth grade with nothing but the standard curricullum and a few years of free clarinet lessons on the side. By the end of high school I had a pretty decent, very well rounded education.

I did a half a year of hard time (private Catholic school) in the eighth grade. It was like getting kicked back to fourth grade during the Spanish Inquisition. Creepy, retarded and violent. I can't see paying extra for that.
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#1943050 - 05/16/08 11:23 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Joe Muscara]
Blue JC
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The whole concept of a generation being dumb...is just dumb.

A "generation" is what Vonnegut called a "granfalloon" - a proud and meaningless association of human beings who choose or claim to have a shared identity or purpose, but whose mutual association is actually meaningless.

What really connects these people besides the random date of their birth? Biological imperatives will trump environment every time.

People are the same regardless of their era or generation. Some are smart, some are dumb, some are informed and some are ignorant. Some choose and some have the choice made for them.

I think this generation is exactly like every previous generation was and every future generation will be.
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#1943065 - 05/16/08 11:57 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: SK]
stepay
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This is an interesting discussion, so thanks for that Dave Horne.

Some points:

1) Jay Leno SWEARS it doesn't take long at all to find people who can't recognize a picture of Hillary Clinton, etc. In fact, he says it's rare that he finds someone who knows most of the questions. He is constantly charged with taking hours and hours to find a few dumb people, and he has again and again sworn that it isn't true.

2) I have a bigger problem with incorrect spelling than I do with people not using books. Books were just once upon a time a major source of entertainment. People didn't read SOLELY for the educational benefit of it. As has already been said in this thread, people now read a TON on line, and it's not all about The Office either. The medium has just changed. People who read a lot of books don't get to declare themselves smarter than those who don't read a lot. I like a good book now and then, but I'm far from a voracious reader, and I know some people who read 10+ books a week who are dumb as a stump. Not really an indication of anything. Bad spelling though? People really should pay more attention to that. Information delivery systems have changed, but "supposedly" is still "supposedly" and not "supossedly" or "suposably".

3) I'm not a purist. That is, I don't cling to older technology as if it were the only way things should be done. I've moved on from DOS. I don't use a rotary phone. I don't even use Windows 3.1. For those of you who think we've dumbed down everything, ask yourself this -- do you use Morse Code to communicate? Do you drive a car instead of ride a horse? Do you watch television to get the news instead of walking to the Town Square to buy the EXTRA EXTRA newspaper from the kid on the corner? Do you grow your own vegetables and kill your own meat? Did you build your own house with non-power tools? Purists for the most part are either afraid of or incapable of learning something new, OR they just like to look down their noses at others. The person who wrote that article is a purist, but of course he could have just written it to have something to write. That is his job after all.

No arpeggiator for me, but if I could find a way to use one that made my music sound cooler, I'd do it in a heart beat. I'll use the transpose button on occasion because it is just too convenient not to, but of course I will remain fluent in all keys.


Edited by stepay (05/16/08 12:00 PM)
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#1944722 - 05/19/08 09:29 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Blue JC]
jook
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 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
What really connects these people besides the random date of their birth?


The times that they grow up in. The environment and society that they share. And that has changed.

The environment that a person lives in plays a significant role in the development of the person's values, habits, personality, and even character. I don't know if you're missing this point, or if you're actually denying the existance of all socio-cultural anthropology.

 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
I think this generation is exactly like every previous generation was and every future generation will be.


So you don't believe in evolution? \:\)

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#1944856 - 05/20/08 06:55 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: jook]
zephonic
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 Originally Posted By: jook
 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
What really connects these people besides the random date of their birth?


The times that they grow up in. The environment and society that they share. And that has changed.

The environment that a person lives in plays a significant role in the development of the person's values, habits, personality, and even character. I don't know if you're missing this point, or if you're actually denying the existance of all socio-cultural anthropology.

 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
I think this generation is exactly like every previous generation was and every future generation will be.


So you don't believe in evolution? \:\)


Not taking any sides here, but there's a growing number of biologists and anthropologists that are now questioning the validity of Darwin's original musings. The word is still out.
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#1944877 - 05/20/08 07:14 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: zephonic]
Dave Horne
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Not taking any sides here, but there's a growing number of biologists and anthropologists that are now questioning the validity of Darwin's original musings. The word is still out.

Names?
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#1944888 - 05/20/08 07:24 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
zephonic
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Not sure, got it from a few articles in some popular science magazines. I could do a google search, but seriously: I can't be bothered :-)

"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion" -John Lawton-
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#1944897 - 05/20/08 07:36 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: zephonic]
SK
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Human nature hasn't changed, but the world has changed, faster and more than ever. Mostly because of media, which has made the world smaller. Like extreme democracy, we impact each other more in styles, marketing, musical tastes, you name it, even with the growing population.

But the media targets the lowest common denominator and has even lowered the bar, which is why so many Europeans think Americans are dumb. I'm sure the dumbing down process has an equal effect worldwide.

Until a few decades ago there was nothing but newspapers or word of mouth. Computers and the internet are very recent. As always, the world changes for the better and the worse.

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#1944905 - 05/20/08 07:47 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: SK]
zephonic
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I think everybody should read "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton.
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#1944907 - 05/20/08 07:49 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: jook]
Blue JC
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 Originally Posted By: jook
 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
What really connects these people besides the random date of their birth?


The times that they grow up in. The environment and society that they share. And that has changed.

The environment that a person lives in plays a significant role in the development of the person's values, habits, personality, and even character. I don't know if you're missing this point, or if you're actually denying the existance of all socio-cultural anthropology.

 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
I think this generation is exactly like every previous generation was and every future generation will be.


So you don't believe in evolution? \:\)


Do you honestly mean to imply that evolution works so quickly we could see its effects in the span of one lifetime?

The original statement is "the dumbest generation" thereby implying that the previous generations were smarter. If you think evolution or environment or a combination of the two will make an entire generation dumber in the space of 20 years, I would suggest that you are missing the point.
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#1944922 - 05/20/08 08:22 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
Griffinator
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
... American public schools were purposely designed to make kids ignorant and tractable. Over my dead body will my children attend one,...

I attended public school and I think I turned out well.

What type of school did you attend?


I turned out well in spite of the public schools I attended.

The parochial school in which I spent the bulk of my grammar school years aggressively challenged the kids. We studied ancient Egypt, Sumeria, the Fertile Crescent, etc. in 3rd grade. Followed that up with the complete history of the European experience in the Americas in 4th grade, from Hernando Cortez and his not-so-merry adventures in Central America, to the French and Indian War, and on into the birth of our nation.

I was given the SAME DAMNED TEXTBOOK in 8th grade social studies that I had studied in 4th grade in my parochial school.

Of course, that didn't really matter - even in 4th grade, I was bored out of my mind - this was all stuff I had read on my own even earlier. I wound up developing some really, really bad study and homework habits early on because I so easily absorbed information that I never needed to "study" for tests - I could ace them after a cursory review of the subject material.

I BEGGED them to allow me to advance a grade in public school, just to escape the boredom. Nope, can't have that. I was forced to study the same crap I'd learned 4 years prior. Had to take pre-algebra in 7th grade, despite a written statement from my 6th grade public school teacher that I had successfully completed pre-algebra in independent study.

In short, they did everything they could to kill my desire for learning.

Thankfully, it didn't work - but I learned how to hate school, hate authority in general, and rebel against it violently. Unfortunately, these are skills that are not conducive to successful employment in the working world...

Oh - did I mention I graduated 17 years ago?


Edited by Griffinator (05/20/08 08:22 AM)
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#1944965 - 05/20/08 09:18 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: kanker.]
wmp
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 Originally Posted By: kanker.
 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I attended public school and I think I turned out well.
Public schools, and the educational system in general, have changed into institutions of educational experimentation, social engineering, and political indoctrination.


Gee, I remember a lot of that going on forty to fifty years ago.

Officer Friendly came to my school in the fourth grade to explain that the police were our friends and how the law would protect us. Haven't seen him since.
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#1945302 - 05/20/08 10:41 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Blue JC]
jook
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 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
 Originally Posted By: jook
 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
What really connects these people besides the random date of their birth?


The times that they grow up in. The environment and society that they share. And that has changed.

The environment that a person lives in plays a significant role in the development of the person's values, habits, personality, and even character. I don't know if you're missing this point, or if you're actually denying the existance of all socio-cultural anthropology.

 Originally Posted By: Blue JC
I think this generation is exactly like every previous generation was and every future generation will be.


So you don't believe in evolution? \:\)


Do you honestly mean to imply that evolution works so quickly we could see its effects in the span of one lifetime?

The original statement is "the dumbest generation" thereby implying that the previous generations were smarter. If you think evolution or environment or a combination of the two will make an entire generation dumber in the space of 20 years, I would suggest that you are missing the point.


I know it's a long thread to read, so I'm guessing you haven't bothered, but now you're just implying that anybody who disagrees with you is agreeing with the original topic. I didn't ever say, nor imply that I agreed with the idea that this generation is the dumbest so please don't put words in my mouth.

You made a post commenting on the idea of a 'generation' being any different from previous and future generations is daft. And the association of people within a "generation" having anything in common at all is completely invalid.

I simply stated why this is not true (people of an era share a common society and environment in which they grow up in and live in). They do share something in common, something pretty influential on how they develop as people: on their values, lifestyle, beliefs, and character.

Whether this means they are dumb or not, was not referred to. I certainly don't believe this generation is particularly dumb. I do believe that this generation is different from the previous, and the next, and there's plenty of evidence to indicate a difference. So the question is not "dumb" though it might be tempting to be politically correct and say "everybody's equal and exactly the same" and it is indoubtedly the least offensive.

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#1945442 - 05/21/08 08:07 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: jook]
Jode
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I can safely state that not many of the kids I meet these days have a comparable skill set to what my peers and I would have had at their ages. What that means, exactly, is harder to say. From a grown-up perspective it sure as hell looks a lot like ignorance - but is that what adolescence is supposed to look like from here? Were we such dumbasses?

I'd like to chalk it up to the folly of youth, but I meet too many adults these days who are the same type of adolescent meatheads. Grown people just bought hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of Grand Theft Auto, fer crissakes.
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#1945470 - 05/21/08 09:11 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Griffinator]
Mr. Nightime
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 Originally Posted By: Griffinator
Of course, that didn't really matter - even in 4th grade, I was bored out of my mind - this was all stuff I had read on my own even earlier. I wound up developing some really, really bad study and homework habits early on because I so easily absorbed information that I never needed to "study" for tests - I could ace them after a cursory review of the subject material.


In short, they did everything they could to kill my desire for learning.

Thankfully, it didn't work - but I learned how to hate school, hate authority in general, and rebel against it violently. Unfortunately, these are skills that are not conducive to successful employment in the working world...



I encountered something similar during my school career. It was the first week of 4th grade, and we were doing 1st grade material. It would take several months before we finally got to the 4th grade material. By this time I was bored out of my mind and becoming a bit disruptive.

My senior year in high school I took algebra, and literally fell asleep in class on a few occasions. I even disrupted the class snoring. The teacher couldn't say much, because I got an A in the class.

I needed a lot more of a challenge to keep me interested, and it wasn't there. And, BTW, I graduated 33 years ago.


Edited by Mr. Nightime (05/21/08 09:12 AM)
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#1945472 - 05/21/08 09:13 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Jode]
delirium
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firstly - private schools are not by definition better...

secondly - it's easier to rule and manipulate dumb people, how on earth otherwise Bush would have been elected???
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#1945567 - 05/21/08 11:54 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Jode]
Outkaster
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 Originally Posted By: Jode
I can safely state that not many of the kids I meet these days have a comparable skill set to what my peers and I would have had at their ages. What that means, exactly, is harder to say. From a grown-up perspective it sure as hell looks a lot like ignorance - but is that what adolescence is supposed to look like from here? Were we such dumbasses?

I'd like to chalk it up to the folly of youth, but I meet too many adults these days who are the same type of adolescent meatheads. Grown people just bought hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of Grand Theft Auto, fer crissakes.


Exactly. There are a ton of dumb lazy ass fucks out there.
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