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#1940501 - 05/11/08 05:07 AM the dumbest generation ... ?
Dave Horne
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Eight reasons why this is the dumbest generation

The transpose button, the arpeggiator - just tips of the iceberg?

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#1940503 - 05/11/08 05:13 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
daviel
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Irving Berlin had a transposing lever, didn't he?
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#1940505 - 05/11/08 05:22 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
delirium
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unfortunately that is true and visible everywhere,
they use transpose button to do everything.
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#1940509 - 05/11/08 05:54 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: delirium]
bloodyMary
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Most of what's written in the article is bullsh!t.

So what that young people (including me!) don't store info they've found on the Net? I know that in case I need it again - it's there. Many times even if I have the desired information on my hard drive, or on the bookshelf, I'd rather google for it - much faster.

So what that people don't type correctly while chatting via IM services? Language is only a tool, and can be customized if desired. It's the quality of information that matters, not the form of delievery.

About reading - modern man reads a lot more than his grandparent - reading stuff on the Net counts. I learn much more about interesting subjects by browsing the Web for an hour than my father could by sitting in the library for days. This includes subjects like nuclear physics, signal processing, synth programming, fixing my car, or whatever else I need to know.

The truth is, I don't even use hard copies of scientific text books anymore. Damn, I used Wikipedia to get ready for my final exams this semester (electronic engeneering). I only been to the university's library once. Does this make me not-reading?


So what that people like to play computer games? Personally, I think that just hanging out with my buddies drinking beers, or jamming on piano is far more attractive (not to mention my girlfriend), but if someone's finding videogames entertaining - so be it. Doesn't make him less smart then you or me.

Of course, there are always stupid/ignorant/close-minded people, in every generation.

Still, there are a lot of modern young people who read, can spell right if they need to, et cetera.



By the way, I'm barely 21, and English's not my native language. How's the spelling, huh?



Oh, yeah, while I enjoy Jay Leno's Jaywalking very much, I'm sure he spends hours on the street finding few morons to make fun of. And yes, it make USA look very bad in eyes of any foreigner. Contributes too much to distorted image of an average US sitizen. As McDonalds, gangsta rap songs and few other things do. Pay attention - none of these things are being run by teenagers.



Sorry if the message looks a bit angry, it just bothers me to be looked at through a prism of stereotypes..
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#1940510 - 05/11/08 05:58 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: bloodyMary]
forceman
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Take a Chillpill, bloodyMary--the article wasn't aimed at you specifically.
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#1940529 - 05/11/08 06:55 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: forceman]
richwhite9
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Marshal McLuhan made a career out of this stuff. Do all forms of of medium (oral history, print, radio, computer, etc.) have the same effect on cognition or are some forms of medium more stimulating to the empirical or sensual mind and less stimulating to the critical and analytical mind?

Books Count.

The internet is great for basic and intermediate overviews of subjects. It generally stinks when it comes to in-depth historical information. A perfect example might be literary criticism. Sitting at a good library with 100 books and journals and critical anthologies is far more productive than reading the same internet synposis over and over again at different sites. Raw research into source documents for historical purposes is usually best done by browsing 'the stacks' as it always was.

Some premium sites address this.

Seeing how critics wrote and reviewed an artistic work over time is somewhat different than getting the latest and greatest update to a Roland owner's manual.

The same debate's been going on since print was developed by Guttenberg, it was revisited when the industrial age came into existence (think Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis' and his broken human machines looking for salvation from their alienated world), when television and radio started to shape opinions (think Orwell's Big Brother and the Party's control of media or the Pentagon's truth makers of the 1960s), and now it's computers, games and internet blogs.

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#1940538 - 05/11/08 07:12 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: richwhite9]
Ed Coury
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<<The internet is great for basic and intermediate overviews of subjects. It generally stinks when it comes to in-depth historical information.>>

Projects now underway to make just about every book ever published online will make the Internet the best source in history for research on any subject imaginable. Even today the Internet is a gateway to many paid and free sites that offer searchable newspapers, journals, and books not available in libraries. I have found images and data online that I would never have found at the largest libraries.
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#1940548 - 05/11/08 07:30 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Ed Coury]
delirium
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 Originally Posted By: Ed Coury

Projects now underway to make just about every book ever published online will make the Internet the best source in history for research on any subject imaginable. Even today the Internet is a gateway to many paid and free sites that offer searchable newspapers, journals, and books not available in libraries. I have found images and data online that I would never have found at the largest libraries.


+1 internet is not what it use to be decade ago - now it's the king.
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#1940556 - 05/11/08 07:43 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: delirium]
KenElevenShadows
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I don't have any real stake in the article, but I gotta say, that was one really poorly written article. With its rampant stereotypes, focus on the internet (and MySpace and messaging?), it seems bizarrely out of place.

By the way, both Newsweek has run an article in the last year or two at how people under 25 are extremely sophisticated and adaptable.

No matter, though. Every previous generation has thought that the new generation was going down the toilet, so why should anything be different now?
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#1940563 - 05/11/08 07:50 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: KenElevenShadows]
delirium
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#1940566 - 05/11/08 08:00 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: delirium]
richwhite9
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 Originally Posted By: delirium

+1 internet is not what it use to be decade ago - now it's the king.


The 'Keyboard Mag' Search Engine is typical of the internet.

The major search engines do not weed out non-distinct results.

Most commercial search engines don't allow you to search based on periodicals only, a book, an original work, an abstract, etc.

Many major periodicals or journals including 'Foreign Affairs', 'The Nation', and 'The New Republic' rarely are returned in hits. Brookings Papers sometimes come back, etc.

Many leading Critical Journals aren't indexed by search engines. They are 'academic' and don't lend themselves to the commercial search engine model.

There's a reason why LexisNexis still exist. You won't find too many tax lawyers or accounting lawyers using the free search engines. The free seach engines are not much better than they were in 1995. In some ways they are much worse since the amount of content that is cloned from Wikipedia to Answer.com to here and there and everywhere just clogs down the search engines with repititious hits.

It's not a technical problem but things won't change under the commercial ad-supported 'most hits' and 'paid hits' search engine model w/ the current optimization rules.

IF all you're looking for is the lowest price or an owner's manual it's great as a shopping tool. It's great for on-line banking. It's great for current events and advice. Many public Domain works are readily available. It generally stinks for targeted, in-depth academic research. The HH Wilsone Databases are fantastic but aren't internet per se.

http://www.hwwilson.com/ftabsind_alpha.htm

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#1940574 - 05/11/08 08:09 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: richwhite9]
Moog_Man
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The most ironic one was about how young people are not in touch with reality and real world events. They say this and then go on to comment about how young people use the internet too much... huh? You can't get much more connected with the world than through the internet, maybe unless you're constantly traveling all over the world. Not in touch with realities? Why are there a record amount of young people voting and active in politics?
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#1940585 - 05/11/08 08:20 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: bloodyMary]
kanker.
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 Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Most of what's written in the article is bullsh!t.

So what that young people (including me!) don't store info they've found on the Net? I know that in case I need it again - it's there. Many times even if I have the desired information on my hard drive, or on the bookshelf, I'd rather google for it - much faster.
I think the article specifically means retaining the information in one's brain, genuinely learning subject matter. That said, I think that non-retention has been a problem for generations. Most folks learn enough to pass the test, and then forget it as soon as it's no longer handy.

 Quote:
So what that people don't type correctly while chatting via IM services? Language is only a tool, and can be customized if desired. It's the quality of information that matters, not the form of delievery.
Part of the problem with this, and I do believe this is a genuine problem, is that younger people aren't developing effective language skills. You are not a native English speaker, yet your grammar and usage is light years beyond much of America's youth. In fact, had you not mentioned that fact, I doubt many of us would have thought you were NOT a native speaker. Many kids in America today can't write complete, coherent sentences, much less paragraphs, much less long, reasoned thoughts. They don't have the expressive language skill to communicate effectively.

 Quote:
About reading - modern man reads a lot more than his grandparent - reading stuff on the Net counts. I learn much more about interesting subjects by browsing the Web for an hour than my father could by sitting in the library for days. This includes subjects like nuclear physics, signal processing, synth programming, fixing my car, or whatever else I need to know.
In America, again, you would be the exception, not the rule.

 Quote:
The truth is, I don't even use hard copies of scientific text books anymore. Damn, I used Wikipedia to get ready for my final exams this semester (electronic engeneering). I only been to the university's library once. Does this make me not-reading?
This may come back to bite you at some point as Wiki is certainly not a truly definitive, scholarly resource, but it's better than nothing.


 Quote:
So what that people like to play computer games? Personally, I think that just hanging out with my buddies drinking beers, or jamming on piano is far more attractive (not to mention my girlfriend), but if someone's finding videogames entertaining - so be it. Doesn't make him less smart then you or me.
I don't know about Israel, but here kids replace activities like outside play, relaxing with a book, or even watching movies with playing video games for hours on end. Their social and physical health is not up to what it was even a generation ago. It's scary really.

 Quote:
Of course, there are always stupid/ignorant/close-minded people, in every generation.
Indeed

 Quote:
Still, there are a lot of modern young people who read, can spell right if they need to, et cetera.
And that number dwindles more each day, at least in America



 Quote:
By the way, I'm barely 21, and English's not my native language. How's the spelling, huh?
Again, had you not said so, none of us would have guessed. I wish the average American youth had the grasp of the language and the ability to use it effectively that you have.



 Quote:
Oh, yeah, while I enjoy Jay Leno's Jaywalking very much, I'm sure he spends hours on the street finding few morons to make fun of. And yes, it make USA look very bad in eyes of any foreigner. Contributes too much to distorted image of an average US sitizen. As McDonalds, gangsta rap songs and few other things do. Pay attention - none of these things are being run by teenagers.
That's part of the 'crisis' though - not many of those same teenagers will have the skills to run something like a McDonald's, nor would they want to. Their lack of intellectual development coupled with their sense of entitlement is shameful.



 Quote:
Sorry if the message looks a bit angry, it just bothers me to be looked at through a prism of stereotypes..
Just realize that the article really is aimed more at the American youth, and that you obviously have a lot more going on for you than many of them.
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#1940588 - 05/11/08 08:25 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Moog_Man]
delirium
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well, with internet is like with hunting knife - you can prey something or you can become a prey.
Sorry young fellows - brain is still required


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#1940600 - 05/11/08 08:54 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: delirium]
Dave Horne
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Perhaps your pry \ pray \ prey comment went unnoticed ... ?

I would think a general knowledge test, like the SAT (with its emphasis on language and math) would be a good indicator.

Have the SAT scores been falling over recent years?
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#1940609 - 05/11/08 09:04 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
delirium
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Perhaps your pry \ pray \ prey comment went unnoticed ... ?


you're wrong - prey, preyed, preyed. Don't rely on the internet so much \:D
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#1940615 - 05/11/08 09:14 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Moog_Man]
richwhite9
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 Originally Posted By: Moog_Man
The most ironic one was about how young people are not in touch with reality and real world events. They say this and then go on to comment about how young people use the internet too much... huh? You can't get much more connected with the world than through the internet, maybe unless you're constantly traveling all over the world. Not in touch with realities? Why are there a record amount of young people voting and active in politics?


I think the biggest criticism is the self-glorifying nature of the internet that allows bloggers to offer self-indulgent opinions on anything. Opinions are different than fact and different than genuine research. The Internet teaches there are no absolute truths but there is that absoute right to say something crude, something dumb, to post vulgar pictures, to use communicaton devices in public, and in general to confuse connectivity with communication and to confuse opinion with real involvement.

Of course this thread (and my posts) fits that criticism to a tee.

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#1940626 - 05/11/08 09:36 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: delirium]
Dave Horne
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 Originally Posted By: delirium
 Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Perhaps your pry \ pray \ prey comment went unnoticed ... ?


you're wrong - prey, preyed, preyed. Don't rely on the internet so much \:D


I should have quoted your original post. ;\)
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#1940638 - 05/11/08 10:34 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: richwhite9]
Joe Muscara
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 Originally Posted By: kanker.
I think the article specifically means retaining the information in one's brain, genuinely learning subject matter. That said, I think that non-retention has been a problem for generations. Most folks learn enough to pass the test, and then forget it as soon as it's no longer handy.
I think it's MUCH more important to learn how to learn, how to find what you're looking for, etc. and be able to understand it than storing crap in the ol' noggin. There was an old story about someone asking Einstein for his phone number, to which Einstein told him he'd have to look it up and get back to him. The requester was surprised Einstein didn't know his own number and told Einstein so. Einstein replied, "why should I know my phone number? I never call myself."

 Originally Posted By: richwhite9
I think the biggest criticism is the self-glorifying nature of the internet that allows bloggers to offer self-indulgent opinions on anything. Opinions are different than fact and different than genuine research. The Internet teaches there are no absolute truths but there is that absoute right to say something crude, something dumb, to post vulgar pictures, to use communicaton devices in public, and in general to confuse connectivity with communication and to confuse opinion with real involvement.
While the Internet has democratized the spewing of opinions to an extent previously unimaginable, this kind of thing has been going on for a long, long time. Look at the outright lies the newspapers in post-Revolutionary times would print about the opposing parties and candidates. Like anything else, the internet is a tool, and it can be abused just as well as used for great things.

Here's a quote that I think pertains to the original subject.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Some have attributed that quote to Socrates, though that has not been proven. However, I suspect it is older than "this" generation as well as at least a few previous ones...

Searching for more info about that quote led me to this article, which discusses both sides of this topic.

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#1940639 - 05/11/08 10:36 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Dave Horne]
SK
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A small point here... but one thing, among others, that was left out of that "article" is the appalling lack of knowledge of history, and even geography. Even events of 20 years ago are a total mystery to some younger people, and some can't find their own country on a map.
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#1940649 - 05/11/08 10:56 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: SK]
Moog_Man
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 Originally Posted By: richwhite9

I think the biggest criticism is the self-glorifying nature of the internet that allows bloggers to offer self-indulgent opinions on anything. Opinions are different than fact and different than genuine research. The Internet teaches there are no absolute truths but there is that absoute right to say something crude, something dumb, to post vulgar pictures, to use communicaton devices in public, and in general to confuse connectivity with communication and to confuse opinion with real involvement.

Of course this thread (and my posts) fits that criticism to a tee.



This is true, but as Joe said, the internet is a tool and can be abused like a lot things. All rights can be abused, and we don't live in a perfect society, so someone is bound to use something the wrong way. I think that is why you take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. It is an excellent resource for many things, regardless of how it is abused.

 Originally Posted By: SK
A small point here... but one thing, among others, that was left out of that "article" is the appalling lack of knowledge of history, and even geography. Even events of 20 years ago are a total mystery to some younger people, and some can't find their own country on a map.


This shouldn't be blamed on youth but rather the American School system. It is ridiculously under funded and understaffed. It doesn't have to do with myspace or talking on a cell phone. This is a failure of the government- not the young.

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#1940652 - 05/11/08 11:05 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: bloodyMary]
GuitarPlayerFL
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 Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Most of what's written in the article is bullsh!t.

So what that young people (including me!) don't store info they've found on the Net? I know that in case I need it again - it's there. Many times even if I have the desired information on my hard drive, or on the bookshelf, I'd rather google for it - much faster.



And if you don't have access to a computer at a particular point in time...?


 Originally Posted By: bloodyMary

So what that people don't type correctly while chatting via IM services? Language is only a tool, and can be customized if desired. It's the quality of information that matters, not the form of delievery.


Sure.
Haven't you heard? "Delievery" is everything.


 Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Damn, I used Wikipedia to get ready for my final exams this semester (electronic engeneering). I only been to the university's library once.


We all know Wikipedia is always correct.
And what is engeneering?
(Wait...I'll Google it!)



 Originally Posted By: bloodyMary

Sorry if the message looks a bit angry, it just bothers me to be looked at through a prism of stereotypes..


You fit the stereotype exactly.

Your entire post is EPIC FAIL.


That article is 100% correct.
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#1940657 - 05/11/08 11:19 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: SK]
richwhite9
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 Originally Posted By: SK
A small point here... but one thing, among others, that was left out of that "article" is the appalling lack of knowledge of history, and even geography. Even events of 20 years ago are a total mystery to some younger people, and some can't find their own country on a map.


But they can 'Google it'. Would you rather converse with someone who can 'Google it' or someone who knows?

From a German Study in 31 countries:
>> A study of 100,000 pupils in 31 countries around the world has concluded that using computers makes kids dumb.<<

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/21/how_dumb_kids/

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#1940660 - 05/11/08 11:27 AM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Moog_Man]
richwhite9
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 Originally Posted By: Moog_Man
This shouldn't be blamed on youth but rather the American School system. It is ridiculously under funded and understaffed.


That's a croc. There's so much mis-spent money in education. As an ex-teacher I take offense. Between union issues and the adoption of bad teaching models and the number of kids coming to school unprepared there's plenty of money to be reallocated. Some of the best teaching models go back to the one room school house and have nothing to do with warehousing 1500 kids in a school so the football program will have a great team.

The fact is an 87% graduation rate may be all the US can reasonably achieve because the incremental cost of improving the graduation rate is phenomenal. Much of that improvement needs to come from social intervention programs that have nothing to do with education per se.

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#1940681 - 05/11/08 12:11 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: richwhite9]
JinVA
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Young people suck. The new generation will be the end of us all. As stated before, that has been said by one generation to another for literally hundreds of years now. I am 22 and pursuing a Master's degree currently. I can see much apathy in my generation towards higher education, and a dumbing down of the culture of young Americans, but we have our great thinkers, artists, musicians, and scholars just like any other generation.

If you are in the group that the article targets like I am, then I would have to say one could find at least some truth in what was said. I don't take offense, because I know I'm better that what the article says my generation is. Now, if you were to pigeon hole me as unintelligent or illiterate based on my nationality, age, race, or anything else, then that is more of a problem with you.

Complain about the current generation all you want, the older folks when you were young complained about you too. Remember the 60's and the 70's? We all know no one ever complained about what happened with those generations. Or are we still remembering that "simpler time" that everyone talks about, that never actually existed. We are making the same mistakes and complaints as we always have, and just choosing not to remember the problems of the past. The 50's weren't a perfect social and political era, it is just easier to say "wasn't it better when....."

I'm not defending the dumb and the lazy in my generation, I'm just saying that this is not new. There are the young scholars who care, and there are those who do not. Our kids will be the same way. It may seem like we have more apathy and dumb, lazy kids than previous generations, but this doesn't mean we couldn't have more great thinkers coming up as well.

-joel

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#1940687 - 05/11/08 12:30 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: JinVA]
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Well said, Joel!

Mark
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#1940694 - 05/11/08 12:40 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: richwhite9]
kanker.
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 Originally Posted By: richwhite9
 Originally Posted By: Moog_Man
This shouldn't be blamed on youth but rather the American School system. It is ridiculously under funded and understaffed.


That's a croc. There's so much mis-spent money in education. As an ex-teacher I take offense. Between union issues and the adoption of bad teaching models and the number of kids coming to school unprepared there's plenty of money to be reallocated. Some of the best teaching models go back to the one room school house and have nothing to do with warehousing 1500 kids in a school so the football program will have a great team.

The fact is an 87% graduation rate may be all the US can reasonably achieve because the incremental cost of improving the graduation rate is phenomenal. Much of that improvement needs to come from social intervention programs that have nothing to do with education per se.
Yep.
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#1940695 - 05/11/08 12:45 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: Joe Muscara]
kanker.
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 Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
 Originally Posted By: kanker.
I think the article specifically means retaining the information in one's brain, genuinely learning subject matter. That said, I think that non-retention has been a problem for generations. Most folks learn enough to pass the test, and then forget it as soon as it's no longer handy.
I think it's MUCH more important to learn how to learn, how to find what you're looking for, etc. and be able to understand it than storing crap in the ol' noggin. There was an old story about someone asking Einstein for his phone number, to which Einstein told him he'd have to look it up and get back to him. The requester was surprised Einstein didn't know his own number and told Einstein so. Einstein replied, "why should I know my phone number? I never call myself."
Apples and oranges there with Einstein, Joe. I agree, why should one be expected to know one's own number compared to having knowledge that really matters? Learning how to learn is indeed very important, but being able to digest, comprehend, analyze, apply, create, and judge ideas AND retain them means you don't have to waste a bunch of time relearning things. Personally, I find it embarrassing when I forget things I've learned. That means I didn't really learn them.
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#1940698 - 05/11/08 12:48 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: kanker.]
forceman
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Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 5007
Loc: Metro-Detroit, Michigan

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JinVa, I agree--the 60's and 70's were a simpler, more carefree time. Yesterday I visited my father at the cemetery and looked at all of the gravesites of guys I knew as a boy--all killed in Vietnam, or a a result of Vietnam. Or from some very poorly-manufactured LSD/synthetic Mescaline...

I see playfulness in your post; a sense of wry humor. I appreciate it! After all, we all remember how stupid our parents were, and how stupid our kids (and now grand kids) think THEIR parents are. Best part about being a grandpa? Seeing our grand kids mess with their parents. \:\)
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#1940702 - 05/11/08 01:01 PM Re: the dumbest generation ... ? [Re: JinVA]
Joe Muscara
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Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 2079
Loc: Houston, TX

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I find it embarrassing when you forget stuff too, kanker. ;\)

In all seriousness, let's not even get into the subject of standardized testing, which seems to have ruined the educational system in many places, including TX, for the very reason you mentioned in your first post.

 Originally Posted By: JinVA
I don't take offense, because I know I'm better that what the article says my generation is. Now, if you were to pigeon hole me as unintelligent or illiterate based on my nationality, age, race, or anything else, then that is more of a problem with you.
This reminds me of a time in college or shortly thereafter when I heard several times that "we're going to have a writing class for engineers, because engineers can't write." Grrr.

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