#1940122 - 05/10/08 07:46 AM
ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
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mdrs
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/15/06
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I've been very concerned in the past several months about the level and tenor of discourse on our forum.
In general, I'm seeing topics brought up, again and again, that only seem to serve to create arguments.
It is hard to see how knocking, say, Gibson and Fender guitars, really leads to any meaningful exchange of information. Add the constant knocking of vintage guitars, etc etc. For that matter, IF anyone were to gratuitously knock less expensive guitars, imports, etc. etc........this sort of thing just seems to be a terrible waste of time and energy.
It has also led to a dramatic decline in what I felt was a very informative and lively interaction on our forum that was here when I "joined up". This positive exchange now seem to, more and more, be sadly lacking. Even some of our regulars seem to incite flame wars about this silly competetive "guitar wars" stuff.
I just don't get it. It has led to me, personally, NOT sharing knowledge and information. Why would I want to get involved in a goofy argument?
Why must someone compare their guitar to another companies? Why not just simply say you love your guitar, and say why you love it? Why knock another guitar company, in order to make your guitar seem better? It's really a very poor way to approach things. If you are happy with what you have, simply state that. Knocking someone else, or another guitar maker really doesn't make your guitar any better. It really just makes you seem petty. There is just no reason to do so.
I enjoy hearing about some of the lesser known guitar makes, and how some guys really like them, and why. Hearing how that somehow makes them better than another iconic guitar??? There is no point to that.
No guitar is better because another companies guitar is "over priced", or "made cheaper". A guitar is either good, or not, ON IT'S OWN MERITS. It would seem that any mature individual would see the truth in that statement.
I do not think in terms of this type of competition. I personally do not come here to validate my guitars, or my WHATEVER!! I come here hoping to learn something.
I want to hear about how experienced musicians approach obtaining better tone, or how some of our studio guys would recommend we approach learning to do quality home recording. I really enjoy the back tracks some of the guys have posted, and totally enjoy hearing the leads many of us have posted on them.
I come here to learn, and to share. I expect a certain communal feel. This is supposed to be our shared friendly pub. Let's all strive to make this a more positive experience. Otherwise, I think we risk seeing the forum degenerate into a typical immature internet ego wars forum.
Finally, this is not meant to single out any individuals. I am aiming my comments at us all....me included.
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#1940133 - 05/10/08 08:03 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: mdrs]
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Dr. Ellwood
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Right on! and here's another thing to think about, one of our members PICKER posted about his bands progress and included sound clips of the band live OVER A HOUR AGO!!! and how many posts does he have?? ONE!! He's put in tons of work and talent into his band and now he wants OUR feedback! WTF!!!
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#1940148 - 05/10/08 08:23 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Justus A. Picker]
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Fumblyfingers
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New blood with something intelligent to say that one can learn from......
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#1940153 - 05/10/08 08:29 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Hardtail]
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Hardtail
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DELETE... forgot about the bad language in the "Blame Canada" South Park tune.
Edited by Hardtail (05/10/08 08:31 AM)
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#1940179 - 05/10/08 09:26 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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mdrs
MP Hall of Fame Member
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Loc: rural PA
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New blood with something intelligent to say that one can learn from......
EXACTLY!!
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#1940202 - 05/10/08 10:34 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: mdrs]
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splitting hare
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I have been here about a year now so obviously I cannot say how things were before. I have joined only a few forums in the past and have lurked on couple others from time to time and found this one to be quite friendly with a lot to offer for all levels of guitar players and musicians. Beginners and novices are just as welcome here as the most advanced players, which is quite refreshing. I basically come here to learn more about my hobby/semi-profession and to socialize more than anything else - I am not a debater, don't claim to be an expert on anything but will offer my opinion if I feel I know enough on the subject. If someone counters it, that's fine - I generally leave it at that and don't argue further. For the most part I think the discussions are pretty civil here - there are a few threads that have popped up from time to time where things have gotten heated but I think that is to be expected from time to time. Some folks like to debate and that is fine as long as things don't get out of hand. And if it does, Bluesape or Craig will come along and say, "get a room you guys!" (Or something like that.  ). They both do a great job keeping things civil here.
Don, I am sorry to hear that things have led to you NOT sharing knowledge and info - based on what I have viewed, you have a great deal to offer there and anything you don't share is something we miss out on. I love to hear what everyone has to say about a subject matter and differing viewpoints from different perspectives are always thought provoking.
But yes, for ANY guitar, amp, piece of gear, type of music, technique, or anything that one person adores, someone else is likely to have a complete and opposite feeling and opinion on it. That someone else has a choice to: 1.) Not say anything and respect the other person's choice without any argument. 2.) Offer their differences in opinion in a respectful manner (i.e., "well that's cool that it works for you but my experiences are such... and it doesn't work for me because... "
Or 3.) Be less congenial about it and say something like, "man that gear is total crap. How can anyone use it?"
Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the matter. 
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#1940204 - 05/10/08 10:40 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: mdrs]
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Scott Fraser
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Knocking guitar companies for one-upsmanship is certainly not helpful, but pointing out real manufacturing flaws or design shortcomings is a real service to the community, I believe, as Fantasticsound has done regarding his Takamine experiences.
Scott Fraser
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#1940210 - 05/10/08 10:56 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Zephyr
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Hmm, I'm guessing a large-scale words war just happened, glad I missed that one.
And well said Don
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#1940214 - 05/10/08 10:59 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: guitarzan]
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Hardtail
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Knocking Ovations is always fair game! Watch it!!  I have 2!  Well everyone knows that Ovations aren't real guitars.... kind of like Canada isn't really a country. LOL! man you hit me twice! if i was in a real country i would invade you. and hit you with my plastic guitar bowl.
You guys bombed the Baldwin's house. That's no small favor! LOL!
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#1940222 - 05/10/08 11:13 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Hardtail]
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Eric Iverson
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Registered: 08/03/05
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Well, it wasn't really about knocking vintage guitars so much as questioning whether they are really worth 10 (or 100)times as much as a modern guitar in the same style.
Yes, the Fender vs. Gibson debate has been going on for centuries and, since most people are going to buy what sounds and plays good to THEM, it isn't profitable exactly.
But this forum is just a sounding board, and if we don't find a certain line of inquiry very profitable, we can always skip the thread.. THE BEST REVENGE!!
Yes indeed, you can learn a lot here, though, and maybe even make a friend or two! Most of whom we probably won't actually see in the flesh until the sweet by and by....
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#1940224 - 05/10/08 11:25 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Zephyr]
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mdrs
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Hmm, I'm guessing a large-scale words war just happened, glad I missed that one.
And well said Don
Thank you, Zeph. I appreciate your comment.
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#1940240 - 05/10/08 12:07 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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GuitarPlayerFL
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Registered: 10/06/02
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Right on! and here's another thing to think about, one of our members PICKER posted about his bands progress and included sound clips of the band live OVER A HOUR AGO!!! and how many posts does he have?? ONE!!
Hey, it's Saturday....I just woke up and took a shower!
I know everybody has other lives besides this message board...especially on the weekend.
I know THIS message board is a billion times better than over at Harmony Central which is where all the Beavis and Butthead's hang out. The collective IQ over there is about 5.
I enjoy all points of view here....especially the guys that are gigging every night or weekend. I value their opinions on what works FOR THEM. Some manufacturers put out stuff that's better or MORE SUITED for certain things than others and it's good to know what people like and WHY. I'm in the mood for a new tube amp...either the Atomic to amplify my POD or a Rivera (maybe Fandango) with a couple pedals.
I love it when people don't like something, state it, and tell why.
_________________________
A great Jazz/Chord Melody Master (my former instructor http://www.robertconti.comLP/Strat/Tele/PV/Wolfgang/POD/JTM 45 Keys: RD700SX/XP-10/Karma (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal) "I Love L.A." - Randy Newman
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#1940305 - 05/10/08 02:10 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: GuitarPlayerFL]
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soggybomb
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Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 625
Loc: Gainesville, FL
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i agree that knocking against guitar companies is pointless and fruitless. people behave differently on the internet and start arguments because of the insulation the computer provides. flame wars have occurred on almost every internet forum i am a member of. still, this forum is best at keeping the arguments to a minimum, which is appreciated.
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#1940310 - 05/10/08 02:27 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: mdrs]
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Rhino Madness
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Registered: 03/31/05
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I would like to extend Don's great comments on keeping positive (or at least respectful) comments on other members' choice of guitars to keeping the same respect toward other members' choice of musical styles/influences. There have been repeated attacks on certain genres or artists that have kept others away (I know it was the whole point of these attacks but it wouldn't hurt to have a more open mind).
It's OK to state one's opinion, but to jump all over someone who just listed his preferred style/artist is not cool. There is something to learn, even (and maybe especially) from what one does not understand yet.
I am not preaching for an always-PC forum where we'd have to walk on eggshells all the time, but for simple respect and positive attitude toward each other.
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#1940330 - 05/10/08 03:46 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: R.F.T]
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Fumblyfingers
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This is the post I have been wanting to make for a while now....in fact I have written them out and deleted on several occasions......I was afraid I would isolate myself, insult people etc etc....but I agree with mdrs and I echo RFT exactly. Lately I come here and look, expecting to not see anything interesting. Often I post just to try and keep participating.....
It is wonderful to have new faces and new ideas..we were all new once. However one thing I thought about, is that in the pre-internet days the weasels were weeded out very fast because to prove yourself in any field you have to get out there and perform, produce, work etc.... make a showing and strut your stuff. You actually had to work at it.
With the internet anyone with at least one finger can say this or that about himself and pose as anything or anyone they want. Everyone can be a know it all if they feel like it and hide behind a veil of anonymity.
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#1940337 - 05/10/08 04:17 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Rampdog]
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miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
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I think the best way to raise the level of discourse...is to just do it...start from yourself and initiate the discussion that you wish to see made.
If anyone else is interested in following...they will.
If no one follows...well then you know what you have. You can‘t force people into specific discussions.
Not sure if we have any "weasels" on these forums. I don't really pay too much attention to that stuff. I just assume people are talking truthfully from their own point of experience (whatever that might be)...though I can see how the internet can aid people in creating "experience" that isn’t there...but it's the paradigm we function under here, it is the nature of forums, the internet.
That said…IMO…these forums are also about “the lighter side”…and shouldn’t be taken too seriously. People shouldn’t have to walk away angry about stuff said here…let’s just lighten up and laugh it off a little more often. 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1940434 - 05/10/08 08:55 PM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Soulrock
Senior Member
Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 356
Loc: Seattle, Wa
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This is the post I have been wanting to make for a while now....in fact I have written them out and deleted on several occasions......I was afraid I would isolate myself, insult people etc etc....but I agree with mdrs and I echo RFT exactly. Lately I come here and look, expecting to not see anything interesting. Often I post just to try and keep participating.....
I often wish there was more of an exchange of musical ideas. What about a thread where everybody posted a lick or a chord voicing or whatever once a week? It would only work if a bunch of people participated. I don't know if anyone else would be interested or not, just throwing it out there. I think it would liven up the forum a bit.
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#1940492 - 05/11/08 03:47 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Rampdog]
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mdrs
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Does that mean no more Jib Jab???  By the way Picker... Nice work... You gotta' be havin' a ball... remember these days my Okie friend... Double 'by the way'... I musta' missed the flaming... But then again...I tend to run from confrontation... But I'm gonna' hang around here causin' I've learned alot... (seriously...no more Jib Jab???)
Billy.....for the record, your Jib Jab concoctions are too much fun to see go. So, you are required to continue your productions!!
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#1940495 - 05/11/08 04:33 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: mdrs]
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Rampdog
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Registered: 02/04/06
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So, you are required to continue your productions!!
Right now the production crew is on strike... Damn... Alot of these folks have families too... meetings are going nowhere... Big dispute over working conditions... Too hot... Too wet... Warm beer... Cold women... mosquitos... roaches... snakes... Hell, this is the south!!! What do they want from me??? This could be a long hold out... (It ain't like those cushy conditions they got out there in L.A. Fumbles) You know... Krystal in the water coolers, sushi buffets, busty womenses, limp wristed assistants, big burly grippers...  I'm on a tight budget here... Stay tuned...
_________________________
What Key Do I Play In? I Play In The Key Of "Fun"!!!
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#1940528 - 05/11/08 06:52 AM
Re: ELEVATING THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION
[Re: Strategery]
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*** Shoes ***
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And though every single human in the stands or in the commentary boxes was at a complete loss for words, the man who in his life had uttered fewer words than any of them knew exactly what to say.
... we endorse that which we acknowledge.
_________________________
I still think guitars are like shoes, but louder.
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Moderator: myles_rose, A String, Bluesape
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And I should add from my previous post that THIS FORUM has made me a better player in many ways........and even maybe my wallet a little thinner at times 
