#1940244 - 05/10/08 12:16 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: guitarzan]
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guitarzan
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don't forget that where a factory is located and what combination of letters you put on the headstock will greatly improve tone.  seriously construction is a big part of tone. a well built guitar with good design is very important. neck angle and bridge design is just as important. wood is good but not the only thing.
my comment is not intended as disrespect to Fender or Gibson.
i want to remind people to look at the guitar and not assume a name will guarantee quality.
it can give you a good place to start, but it isn't the end.
i hope you guys realize i have nothing against Gibson or Fender. and i realize i may have set off a little fire with my smart assed comment. my bad.
some are good and some are bad.
i was being a smart ass, and i have nothing to say against fender or Gibson. my last 4 guitars were either Gibson or Fender.
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#1940247 - 05/10/08 12:22 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: guitarzan]
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mdrs
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I knew that, Zan. I think that all the regulars here know you aren't a trouble maker!!!
Now, did you pick up that case of Guinness yet?????
.........just check'in.......... 
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#1940250 - 05/10/08 12:26 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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guitarzan
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actually my mind was on a Gibson SG standard, but that cost a bit more.
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#1940274 - 05/10/08 12:58 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: guitarzan]
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mdrs
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Well, I'd gladly loan you my SG standard Tuesday, for a Guinness today!
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#1940294 - 05/10/08 01:43 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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miroslav
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Mmmmmm....but one also can't assume that ALL guitars with a particular nameplate are automaticllly of the exact same quality (good or bad).
And who specifically has ever said that, except for you just now?
I never said that anyone "specifically" stated that.
But it’s often what happens when we get into these debates. There are some broad generalities on both sides of the camp...but the realities/truths are usually somewhere in the middle.
Not all "iconic brand" guitars are great…and not all other brands (or non-American brands) suck.
I think that is the only drum I've really ever beat on with any regularity…but sometimes I get the feeling that when Fender and Gibson guitars are mentioned around here…it must always be without ANY reproach.
Hey…some people have issues with *some* of those brand guitars from time to time…and some people will just never buy them (for whatever reason)….and yet others, like you, only want them.
So what…let’s move on.
No need to lose too much sleep over this...
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1940299 - 05/10/08 01:56 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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Bluesape
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Yup - we're not here to debate what legitimate brand NOT to buy. It's great that there are true bargains out there now, more than ever before, with excellent quality, playability, and tone, particularly in the $400.00-$700.00 range. But, I've said before in other threads that knowledgeable people are gonna find the real bargains in the cheap seats, cuz they're gonna spot the flaws, and they are there! I love Godin Freeways, but I have seen new ones that need the frets dressed, along with MIM Fenders, Epis, Ibanez's, etc. There's a new $175.00 Kramer Pacer in town with excellent frets, better than every import in the store under a grand! But your mom picking out a gift guitar for ya likely wouldn't spot that.
Every guitar should be assessed on its own merits, cuz there are variances in mass production - ever heard of Monday cars? Which is why I cant see myself buying any guitar online, or a venue where I can't check it out, unless I know I can implicitly trust the source, as in the case of 'Zan finding the Freeway he sent me with his approval of it.
There will always be those of us who stick with top brands because:
a) We can
b) We believe in the investment virtue
c) We care about the image our gear conveys
d) We want the specific attributes the instrument is known for
e) We don't want to feel that we've compromised
f) We are influenced by the choices of our idols/icons
Miro has absolute faith and satisfaction with his Hags, and that's great, just as I have with my gear. I agree there is a little too much brand bashing going on here, and I've been guilty of that too. Don's collection, IMHO is the crown jewel among us here, with gear that many a rock star would drool over. Lee's is right in that strata as well. Me? I'm blessed with gear that should be beyond my means, but I don't have typical priorities, but I don't begrudge anyone their successes.
Guitars are very personal and emotional purchases for many of us, and we don't need negative feedback on purchases already made.
Feel free to bash my toaster - dunno what brand it is, and don't care if yours is better.
_________________________
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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#1940336 - 05/10/08 04:13 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Rhino Madness]
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Fumblyfingers
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yes you are right Rhino, I apologize....it looked like I got a little attitude going but it was not meant that way like "post your playing and than I'll post mine and blow you out the water" it was more meant like if you are claiming you play fantastically on an amp and or guitar that most people would shy away from...then throw up a clip.....show us why you say that....not to ridicule the person........I would not want to see that at all.
Thanks for the compliment......I don't think so all that much, I hear stuff others do I wish I could...every day.
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#1940339 - 05/10/08 04:30 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Rhino Madness
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That's cool Lister, I misunderstood the tone of your post (as is so easy to do in print-only format).
And it's good not to think too much of your own playing 'cause that keeps you going forward even further still and keeps it enjoyable and fresh.
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#1940367 - 05/10/08 05:51 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: miroslav]
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mdrs
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Mmmmmm....but one also can't assume that ALL guitars with a particular nameplate are automaticllly of the exact same quality (good or bad).
And who specifically has ever said that, except for you just now? I never said that anyone "specifically" stated that. But it’s often what happens when we get into these debates. There are some broad generalities on both sides of the camp...but the realities/truths are usually somewhere in the middle. Not all "iconic brand" guitars are great…and not all other brands (or non-American brands) suck. I think that is the only drum I've really ever beat on with any regularity…but sometimes I get the feeling that when Fender and Gibson guitars are mentioned around here…it must always be without ANY reproach. Hey…some people have issues with *some* of those brand guitars from time to time…and some people will just never buy them (for whatever reason)….and yet others, like you, only want them. So what…let’s move on. No need to lose too much sleep over this...
I find your comments ironic, Miro. You seem to be most often involved in these kind of arguments, yet are offering your advice to help this discussion of how to avoid them.
You seem to have a "bipolar" view that sure perpetuates this kind of argument. You say that there are "broad generalities on both sides of the camp..."
What camp is this that you are referring to? I am not aware of any camp. Is that a requirement? Did I miss the memo?
YOU quite evidently view it this way. And THAT is precisely what I am fighting against!!! There are not two camps that I'm aware of. Until folks like you get that out of your heads, we will continue with the silliness that is such a put off to more serious minded musicians trying to learn something here on our forum.
Then you actually say this about me;
"….and yet others, like you, only want them."
This is just another in a long line of things you have said that are unfounded, untrue, and inflammatory.
I have never said anything bad about someone else's guitar. I would never. I have spent most of my life NOT ABLE TO AFFORD a good guitar. I still loved my $25 Harmony acoustic, none the less!!! I wish I still had it, actually!!
For the record I firmly believe that anyone who thinks that there are "two camps" as far as guitar preferences is concerned, is approching things in a very strange way, and should have their motives evaluated.
It certainly is NOT my way of viewing guitar preferences, nor life in general, for that matter. I have never said anything that would indicate otherwise on our forum, or ever anywhere. I have, and do own guitars and amps of many many makes. And, I would fight for your right to like, purchase, and own any make you so desire.
So, your characterization of me in the way you did, simply serves to point out your argumentitive approach, which is EXACTLY WHAT I'M SICK AND TIRED OF.
Originally Posted By: miroslav
Mmmmmm....but one also can't assume that ALL guitars with a particular nameplate are automaticlly of the exact same quality (good or bad).
That is your quote. Then, you say you never said that anyone "specifically" stated that.
You can't have it both ways. You did say that. Who has said that all guitars of any brand are all good or bad?? You said it. Explain yourself. Or, are you making a statement that you made up to inflame an argument?
Finally, I'd ask all of our forum members to read this forum critically. Watch for individuals who seem to CREATE arguments. Who brings up subjects that will likely lead to flames. The one thing we should all have is enough common sense to realize where the problems come from. Perhaps if enough of us step up and demand better behavior, me can avoid some of this.
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#1940380 - 05/10/08 06:47 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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Bluesape
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Obviously, we take our guitar purchases seriously. Far more pride and emotion than cold mathematical logic are in play, for me, at least. I doubt that I can rationally argue the superiority of one brand or fretboard over another, but dammit, I like what I like, and I don't feel that we need to defend our choices. The silly part about these confrontational threads is that the most embroiled people tend to be highly experienced and very savvy, yet we can dismiss neophytes with amusement.
A drummer friend that I jam with recently told me that my LP Studio is no better than an Epi, perhaps worse, and since it's painted, it must be plywood. Dunno where he gets his info, but it wasn't worth the bother of trying to set him straight about that, other than telling him he needed better sources of info. His input as a drummer is far more valuable, and I didn't get worked up over it. He meant no harm.
But that isn't what's goin' on here. I don't get why advanced guitarists can't expend more energy seeking common ground than we do tossing subtle and not so subtle jabs at each other. I consider myself a Black Belt, for lack of a better analogy, as I do some others here, and agree with the attitude that there is more to be learned from each other than there is to be disputed.
_________________________
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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#1940383 - 05/10/08 06:59 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Bluesape]
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mdrs
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Well put, Reif. Another example of why your presence is so valued here.
Variety is the spice of life!! Viva la differance!!
Sorry about the french.....LOL  
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#1940384 - 05/10/08 07:03 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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Scott Fraser
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Originally Posted By: miroslav
Mmmmmm....but one also can't assume that ALL guitars with a particular nameplate are automaticlly of the exact same quality (good or bad).
That is your quote. Then, you say you never said that anyone "specifically" stated that.
You can't have it both ways. You did say that. Who has said that all guitars of any brand are all good or bad?? You said it. Explain yourself. Or, are you making a statement that you made up to inflame an argument?
Finally, I'd ask all of our forum members to read this forum critically. Watch for individuals who seem to CREATE arguments. Who brings up subjects that will likely lead to flames. The one thing we should all have is enough common sense to realize where the problems come from. Perhaps if enough of us step up and demand better behavior, me can avoid some of this.
I really don't want to get caught up in this controversy, but you requested other forum members to read critically & act accordingly. I have read & re-read Miroslav's sentence quoted here, & if I'm following the sentence logic correctly, I find it does not state that he believes that all guitars of a specific make are of the same quality, but rather that one cannot make that assumption. I read it as saying the opposite of what you're reading, so if it is a misunderstanding which is touching on raw nerves here, I'd suggest a clarification is in order. And a bit of a cooling down period. It is continually proven that written communication lacks the nuance we can observe in face to face conversation. I feel what's going on here is an example of that.
Scott Fraser
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#1940386 - 05/10/08 07:08 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Bluesape
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Great insight, Scott!
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Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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#1940387 - 05/10/08 07:11 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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Bluesape
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Well put, Reif. Another example of why your presence is so valued here. Variety is the spice of life!! Viva la differance!! Sorry about the french.....LOL
Been into the French beer(biere) again, Don?  
_________________________
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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#1940389 - 05/10/08 07:19 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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mdrs
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You could be right, Scott.
I could be misinterpreting that sentence. A clairification might help. I was asking for an explaination for that very reason.
I'm happy to agree with the concept that not all specimins of any guitar maker are great.
I'd critically re read, as I believe that Miro was saying that someone else had said that all guitars of a particular name were good or bad.
If that happened, I must have missed that. That was the point I was making. I think that Miro brought that concept into the discussion.
I could be wrong. I'd have to re read myself to be sure!!
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#1940401 - 05/10/08 07:39 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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miroslav
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Thanks Scott...you read my posts exactly as intended. 
Don...I will just say that you are mistaken when you say that I "seem to be most often involved in these kind of arguments".
Review some of the recent threads on these topics...and then tell me who's had the most to say in all of them....
If you use old debates from a year or more ago as the basis for interpreting things I say today...then you will continue to misread my posts.
In all posts that I’ve made recently about these topics…I’ve not once said anything negative/argumentative about Fender or Gibson or vintage guitars or you or anyone here for that matter.
I think you have been reading what some others have been saying in recent topics, and then superimposing it on two or three rather neutral posts that I’ve made (judging by the statement you made that I quoted above).
As I’ve offered before...feel free to PM me if you want to talk this out…but doing it here on the forums is obviously only going to lead to more misinterpretations…
…and I really don’t see any benefit from that.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1940423 - 05/10/08 08:44 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: miroslav]
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mdrs
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I'll just say that I officially do not belong to any camp. I am an equal opportunity guitar enthusiast. LOL
I will speak out against things I don't agree with, in spite of any camps or teams that might be on the playing field.
I respect whatever guitar a person decides to put in their hands, and makes them happy. That's why I will speak out when someone incites a flame war, such as the comments of Guitarzan6000 earlier on this thread.
And, if I see someone trash a "non big two" guitar, I will similiarly speak out.
Miro, forgive me if I find some of your comments hard to, let's say, interpret. Given your previous record regarding topics such as vintage guitars, or the old name brand vs. "off brand" flame wars that have been like a herpes fever blister....they just keep coming back!!!
Perhaps you have truely turned over a new leaf, and I am just misreading your comments in light of your "old ways". I am NOT being smug here. I'm saying that I will in fact try to read your posts in a new light. Maybe old dogs can learn new tricks. I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt.
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#1940447 - 05/10/08 10:05 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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Fumblyfingers
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I do not know how true it is but I have heard that wood is not what it used to be a long time ago.I don't know if it is because we are felling trees more than ever and they are not having time to get really old but I have heard this. I do know the price of lumber has really gone up...even construction grade is way more expensive..we buy a lot of it...tons of it....and the quality sucks. Try going to your local lumber yard and finding consistent straight lumber that is reasonably clear and is not too wet or too dry. Granted exotic and specialty woods are different but still, I have heard the quality nowdays s not the same, that it is difficult to find really good wood.
I also believe that many bargain guitars might not use the quality of wood that a more expensive guitar might use.
I always notice that the wiring and electrical components in cheap guitars are ...well, cheap. Chrome plating seems thinner and plastic binding seems way more...er, plastic. Then there is the construction, the attention paid to tolerances, the amount of hand making as opposed to machine made mass production, bracing in acoustics, the tuning of the tops in acoustics etc etc. No way a Carlo Robelli or other bargain brand resonator can compete with a National...no way.
While the pickguard on my Strat is starting to warp a bit, I do notice that other than the clay dot markers, my Gibson Les Paul and my Strat seem to be aging gracefully. Not something I will expect from my Ibanez's.
A lot comes down to quality control. I am certain that the bigger USA manufacturers have more stringent quality control and that instruments that do not pass do not end up in a store for sale. A guitar assembled in China, Korea, Mexico, etc might not have the same strict control.
Again....if you look at the greater majority of guitar players and their quivers you will mostly see Gibson, Fender, PRS, higher end Ibanez, Gretsch, Epiphone, Dean, ESP etc. This is the majority with Reverend, Danelectro and other less played brands being more like guitars used for a certain sound. Nobody can sit there and tell me that the reason most play Gibson and Fender is only because of clever marketing and brainwashing.
I might add that I keep referring to the big two because I firmly believe they hold the market for a reason. Many other fine instruments out there though.
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#1940452 - 05/10/08 10:29 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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guitarzan
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the design of a LP or a Strat is pretty darned next to perfect. variances have popped up but you can't really stray to far from what was originally designed. funny how the early electrics are still being made and copied today.
50 yrs later, wow.
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#1940453 - 05/10/08 10:57 PM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: mdrs]
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miroslav
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I'll just say that I officially do not belong to any camp.
My parents sent me to summer camp when I was about 11 years old.
I was supposed to stay there for the summer.
After about a month...I got bored and hithced a ride back home with a family that was visiting their kids.
Needless to say...my parents never sent me to any camp again after that.
(True story)
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1940493 - 05/11/08 04:12 AM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: miroslav]
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mdrs
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So, getting back to the wood........
Lister mentioned about old wood.....the thing about wood is that it's alive, or at least it was. As such, wood varies a lot. No two pieces are entirely alike. This is one of many reasons that two of the same guitars, even ones made sequentially, can be so different.
There are generalities that you can make, such as maple may lead towards a more trebly and clear tone, while mahogany will give you more mids and lows and a warmer tone, etc. etc..
Historically, there have been types of wood that were prized for their tonal qualities.
Flamed maple was prized by violin makers. Check out the '58 and '59 bursts, or the PRS (or really any guitar maker these days) "wall" at your local guitar center, and you'll see that guitar makers have caught on to flamed maple's alure!!
There was a time around the late 1800's and early 1900's, when there was a stock pile of old growth Brazilian Rosewood that had been harvested, and stored for something like a hundred years before it was cut up, processed, and used for guitarmaking. My understanding is that a lot of this wood was also used to make furniture. It was harvested in the day that the rain forrest was being clearcut with impunity. This old wood occupies a very special place in guitar making history. First, Braz rosewood has great tonal characteristics. Secondly, this old stock pile of wood had been aged naturally (ie no vacum wood kiln to accelerate the "ageing") for such a long time, that once it was cut up into "guitar parts" it had already done much of the major "changing" it would go thru due to the aging process having been so long. So, not only did you have the premier tone wood, but it was likely as stable as any that ever was or ever will be. It is unlikely in this day and age that we will ever see any kind of wood harvested, and stored for 100 years before it is used to make guitars!! So, the pre WW II acoustics made of this old Braz rosewood have become highly coveted.
Also, many of those old pre WW II Martins just happen to be fantastic guitars. That, combined with the Braz story accounts for their iconic status.
I've played a handful of pre war Martins, and can say that they do have remarkable sonic attributes. The Braz that makes up the bodies seems very thin, and the guitars are amazingly light weight. When you strum a chord, the volume and intensity of vibration of the sound box is remarkable. It's almost as if the acoustic guitar amplifies the energy you put into it. Even a small bodied 000-28 resonates with remarkable intensity. If you ever have the opportunity, try to play one of these old pre WW II Martins.
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#1940627 - 05/11/08 09:40 AM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: guitarzan]
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Scott Fraser
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the design of a LP or a Strat is pretty darned next to perfect. variances have popped up but you can't really stray to far from what was originally designed. funny how the early electrics are still being made and copied today.
50 yrs later, wow.
Those two, along with the Telecaster, are like Levis. A perfect design that can't really be much improved upon, although little refinements have come along over the years, like replacing the buttons with a zipper.
Scott Fraser
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#1940629 - 05/11/08 09:52 AM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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guitarzan
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the design of a LP or a Strat is pretty darned next to perfect. variances have popped up but you can't really stray to far from what was originally designed. funny how the early electrics are still being made and copied today.
50 yrs later, wow.
Those two, along with the Telecaster, are like Levis. A perfect design that can't really be much improved upon, although little refinements have come along over the years, like replacing the buttons with a zipper. Scott Fraser
but they still have the 501's with the buttons.
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#1940659 - 05/11/08 11:25 AM
Re: about wood/s and tone etc
[Re: guitarzan]
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Rhino Madness
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the design of a LP or a Strat is pretty darned next to perfect. variances have popped up but you can't really stray to far from what was originally designed. funny how the early electrics are still being made and copied today.
50 yrs later, wow.
Those two, along with the Telecaster, are like Levis. A perfect design that can't really be much improved upon, although little refinements have come along over the years, like replacing the buttons with a zipper. Scott Fraser but they still have the 501's with the buttons.
And you can also buy new "artificially aged" relic'ed jeans!!! 
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I'll drink to that! 
I'll drink to that other thing, too....whatever it was....hic!
