#1938584 - 05/07/08 10:24 AM
Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
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jeeps
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Registered: 03/27/08
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I hope someone can explain the difference say between the speakers in a Bass 4x10 cabinet (8 ohms),compared to a 4x10 for a guitar? has anyone hooked up a good guitar amp head to a 4x10 cabinet intended for bass guitar?. You see where I am going with this ,trying to make some old bass equiptment double up as guitar use-able
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#1938615 - 05/07/08 11:05 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: jeeps]
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Eric Iverson
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I have seen guitarists play through bass speakers, but I have heard that is a very bad idea to play a bass through a guitar amp - not sure if it damages the speakers or the head. At any rate, I never let any bass players use my amp! (They have their own anyway!)
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#1938627 - 05/07/08 11:16 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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Danzilla
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I think that bass speakers are designed to handle a larger range of frequencies more efficiently, especially the lower frequencies; partly by design of their cone excursion. So playing a guitar through bass amps is fine, and some people prefer the sonic qualities it provides (i.e. the Fender Bassman, used by more guitarists than bassists).
Eric is right about a bass running through a guitar amp being potentially dangerous- the guitar cones aren't designed for the longer excursion produced by lower frequencies and can blow or rip.
But I'm no scientist or engineer; others can give the real reasoning for this.
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#1938634 - 05/07/08 11:25 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: jeeps]
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paully
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If you looked at the front of the speakers, it's usually apparent. Most bass speakers have cones that have contiguous, concentric ridges pressed into the paper, which allows for longer excursion and less initial shock on the cone. Guitar speakers usually have flat cones. Also, the diaphram might have heavier windings to accomodate the extra power needed for bass tones. Again, the excursion is greater, so travel length is
different in a bass speaker.
If you can stand the sound, there's nothing wrong with using a bass speaker for guitar. Not so the other way around.
Best, Paul
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#1938637 - 05/07/08 11:29 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: Danzilla]
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miroslav
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Most bass speakers have a steeper High Frequancy roll-off, as they have little need for that range, and often there's not much after about 3k. They may also have a better/extended LF response, or may be tuned to a particular LF range for specific response.
Guitar speakers have a bit more HF range...often with a bit of sike in the upper-mids/lower high (around 2k-5k)...and a soft LF roll-off.
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#1938655 - 05/07/08 11:56 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: miroslav]
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Mudcat
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A more critical consideration is the cabinet design. Playing a bass at anything other than relatively low volume through an open back cabinet can be very detrimental to the speakers (Although the original 4x10 Bassman was open back. They didn't play quite so loud back in the fifties). The sealed cabinet helps control the length of the cones' excursion. A bass could easily launch a speaker cone in an open back cabinet.
If you have a closed back 4x10 cabinet I would think it would be fine for both bass & guitar. I don't think this would be advisable with metal coned bass speakers though.
Note that back in the sixties & seventies several Fender sealed back cabinets were marketed for both bass & guitar (Showman & Bassman cabinets come to mind).
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#1938660 - 05/07/08 12:11 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: Mudcat]
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caprae
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Clean guitar through our Ampag BA-112 sounds great.
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#1938680 - 05/07/08 01:00 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: caprae]
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miroslav
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I occasionally use a 15" speaker that is part of an old style Cerwin Vega 3-way bass reflex cabinet (V34...the ones with the gray carpet covering).
I would disconnect the tweeters and the horn...and just use the 15" speaker...which is not voiced for HF and would make a killer bass speaker/cab as-is, but on guitar it sounds pretty cool too, though a bit dark, but you can take a real bright guitar/amp and get some sweet smoothness out of it.
If you go for big crunch/OD....you don't get any of the high-end sizzle/grit...just the low end rumble/crunch, which is great for some stuff.
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#1938685 - 05/07/08 01:05 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: miroslav]
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Zack Pomerleau
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Stevie Ray Vaughan played Texas Flood album through a Bass Amp and a TubeScreamer, from what I have read...
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#1938691 - 05/07/08 01:14 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: paully]
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BrianWren
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Most bass speakers have cones that have contiguous, concentric ridges pressed into the paper, which allows for longer excursion and less initial shock on the cone. Guitar speakers usually have flat cones. Also, the diaphram might have heavier windings to accomodate the extra power needed for bass tones. Again, the excursion is greater, so travel length is
different in a bass speaker.
If those rings aloowed "less initial shock on the cone," the character of the soundwave would be affected.
I have had many guitar speakers with those ridges in them, and some without.
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#1938701 - 05/07/08 01:24 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: BrianWren]
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BrianWren
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One aspect of musical instrument speakers that a lot of people don't know is how they differ from hi-fi speakers.
Hi-fi speakers are designed such that for the entire travel, the voice coil is within the magnetic field.
Musical instrument speakers are designed so that the voice coil is past the main part of the magnetic field at the extremes of excursion. This does two things: 1) it protects the speaker from banging into the back of the magnet structure in one direction and from tearing the suspension materials in the other, and 2) it allows for largely uncontrolled current from the amp just at the edges of travel.
Accoustically, of course, this changes the sound a t extremes of volume (whatever is extreme for that speaker). The crest of the wave is unformed, and flattened out.
But to the topic at hand, it could be very bad for a guitar speaker/cabinet comination to be subjected to really low frequnecies at a high power (especially if the cabinet is bass reflex or open back), because there is a greater chance of overextending the speaker. It would be a lot more dangerous, but for that coil-out-of-the-magnetic-field construction I mentioned above.
As for guitar through a bas rig, it would be hard to imagine a way for that to harm the bass speaker.
My gueass on the main difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers would be one of voicing. Different speakers have different personalities, and I would guess (it's a guess) that MFRs take speakers with a voice for bass, and market them as bass speakers, etc.
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#1938773 - 05/07/08 03:52 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: BrianWren]
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jeeps
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I see Im not the only one doing this . I had bought a 75 watt guitar modeling amp combo with a 12" speaker . When i tried doing some recording with it ,I was suprised to learn the headphone jack muted the speaker(this combo had no output for extension speaker.)Or no input for second guitar!So I ended up routing the sound to my bass setup ,a SWR bass combo (15" speaker w/h a switchable horn). After seeing how excellently (IMO) the 15" Bass combo sounded compared to the 12" Guitar combo , I returned the $300.00 12" guitar combo right away.
Also I like to play along with drum machine ,cds ,and really LOVE the wet chrisp highs from the tweeter. Playing the same cds ect through the 12" guitar combo sounded muddy and flat ,regardless how much i tweaked the settings on the amp.
So to cover the guitar tones I loved so much from the modeling amp ,I went cheesy and bought a usb interface(Toneport w/h Gearbox) and plug the guitar into that and out into the 15" bass combo .
I really think a lot of the tones of the toneport are really excellent and just make my mexican standard strat sound nice with a wide range of cover songs.I do like to play the popular songs and try to find the right patch or tone to replicate it. It sounds good ,clean and tight and can get brutally loud .I can be happy with that for now. But as far as finding a tone that defines me or my style (to be), still leaves something to be desired.
So now I have this seperate 4x10 cabinet(also with SWRs tweeter) in the garage,and I DONT need this extension speaker for inside so I am thinking well why not try power it with a Epiphone Valve jr or a Blackheart BH5H Little Giant. That way I dont have to drag any equiptment down there when Im feeling it. That way if I play out(unlikely) I can have two options for amps and cabinets.
Is anyone out there using a laptop with usb interface(for tone generation) plugged into the combo?
Noticing the Epiphone Valve Jr has No EQ, would I be better to get the Blackheart BH5H that has some EQ? So far I am into this pretty cheap utilizing the existing combo and cabinet I have .
Do some of you have both solid state modeling amps AND a tube head to cover the different type of music you want to play?
I dont want to give up the modeling tones to copycat my favorite band sounds ,theres so much effects you get without buying any pedals! I want to test drive the real tube sound ,and see what my guitar itself is capable of creating tone wise.
Please excuse the confusing nature of this post mentioning multiple set ups and configurations,try to bear with me .Thanks all.
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"warm smell of colitas,rising up through the air"
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#1938777 - 05/07/08 03:55 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: jeeps]
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Big Red 67
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15" speakers sound great with guitar to me as well. I have an old cab with a Carvin driver in it and it rocks!
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#1938801 - 05/07/08 04:30 PM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: Big Red 67]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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generally speaking, guitar speakers are prised for their ability to quickly break up, while bass speakers are prised for their ability to take a lot of volume without breaking up. Also, the performance of speakers over a given frequency range is tailored to the instrument for which they are intended.
In the 70s, we were throwing PA speakers into everything. which mostly proved to be way too clean for everybody. But it is a neat sound, too. JBLs were the most popular, followed by EVs. Once I got rid of my massive 10 cabinet rig, I had a combo rig of a pair of JBL 12s and a pair of Gauss 10s, in Gauss designed cabinets. Really was a pretty sound.
But not long after that I 'discovered' low wattage speakers (which break up more quickly) then low wattage amps, and now I'm using Celestions, like most everyone else. But I went through a period of experimenting with various stereo cabinet drivers dropped into Fender or Marshall cabinets. The results were unreliable and unrepeatable since most stereo makers change driver suppliers or models too quickly, but they were always interesting. It was also weird to go from a Gauss, with a magnet the same size as the speaker, to some no-name speaker with a magnet smaller than a can of tuna.
Bill
Edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios (05/07/08 04:31 PM)
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#1939197 - 05/08/08 09:33 AM
Re: Difference between bass speakers and guitar speakers
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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jeeps
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The 4x10 Bass cabinet I have DOES have a closed back. I ended up doing some experimenting (its free)and hooked up my Bass AMp combo to the extension speaker cause I just had to hear my guitar through it NOW. I isolated the combo from the cabinet so I could only hear the the 4X10 cabinet. In my opinion it sounded clean,loud and good tone .For tones-sounds I was trying both using a laptop w/h Toneport/gearbox into an amp and out to cab, which really sounded nice and very versitile . Then I tried using (yet another piece of eqipt)a small cheap 15w 8" GUITAR speaker combo amp to create the tones,route through the Bass Combo for amplification (not overdriven) and then into the 4X10s. Again the result was a sound I can be happy with . But when listening to the 8" combo amp JUST BY ITSELF -no add ons or interface,the distortion and effects of the amp just sound small tinny and scratchy.id roll off the treble and mid to tame that buzzy torn scratchy sound. But its meant for a guitar? I recently returned a 12" solid state modeling guitar amp combo because the 15" bass combo sounded better.(the 12" sounded way better than the 8" both celestions. Maybe I just like the fuller sound of big speakers ,I dont know.
What does it mean ,speaker breaking up ? And how does this effect tone? Is breaking up the speaker the same as emulation-or digital distorion?
I always like to practice with a cd or even drummer loops from a laptop. For those doing this (play along)how do you get the clean wet tight high hat sound from the drum generator ? Considering both my bass outfits have a switchable horn /tweeter,I am just hooked on the spank of that chrisp tight response of it. I even like the way all my guitar tones-patches come through the horn /tweeter.So bright and clean sounding,maybe thats why it could pass? Not muddy at ALL.
Additionally I tilt all my cabinets upward somewhat,or elevate on milk crate to get the sound to come right at me.
I am not saying I wont shell out the bucks for a REAL guitar setup -combo like what forum member here say they like ,blues jr ect.At that time (money tight right now)I would be ok to shell out 500-600 bucks for one.
As for now I ve been able to try to make do with just the toneport for tones(route signal to amp -not computer speakers!)and a cheap 15w 8"combo either by itself or output into the existing Bass rigs. Out of pocket $150.00 total plus putting my old equipt back to work. If you have the patience to reply to my lengthy numerous questions,please do!
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