#1939418 - 05/08/08 06:09 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: DavidMPires]
|
JazzerT
Member
Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 6
|
Offline
|
|
I played through the GB 3.0 - Great amp!
Since I play fretted and fretless, I like to EQ them differently. saw the Euphonic Audio iAmp 300 - looks like just what the doctor ordered. Anyone used it on a gig? Whadda ya think?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939435 - 05/08/08 06:38 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Nicklab]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
Online
|
|
It seems that gradually the bass world is embracing the concept of the Class D amplifier. Small, lightweight amps that might be so compact that they can fit in the front pocket of a gig bag, but powerful enough to run 1 or 2 cabinets easily. But are you buying them? Here are a few that are being offered by amp manufacturers.
I ain't buying any of them, simply because I know I'm paying for a name in that situation.
How do I know? I'm a former home theater guy. The Class D circuit revolutionized the HT market - all over the place there were dirt-cheap high-power digital amplifiers, thanks to TI releasing their class D all-in-one chip, which left the rest of the circuitry to do nothing but supply power to it or handle DSP. The only justifiable expense in any of these things is what DSP they add to it to make it sound better, because the core of the unit (the amplifier) costs next to nothing.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939440 - 05/08/08 06:46 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Online
|
|
BTW - the Boogie Walkabout (as advertised on the page) is a MOSFET (not class D) with tube preamp circuitry.
There's nothing in the Eden literature or the Ashdown literature to indicate that theirs is a class D either.
The only one on your list that actually advertises itself as a Class D is the Genz-Benz, and for the money, they can keep their starved-plate preamp.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939472 - 05/08/08 08:42 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
natobasso
Senior Member
Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 98
Loc: USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
There's nothing in the Eden literature or the Ashdown literature to indicate that theirs is a class D either.
Well there's a bass player magazine article on the WTX260 that disagrees with you.  Not sure why it's not easier to see on their actual website under 'product' but oh well:
http://www.eden-electronics.com/info/reviews/pdf/BP9-07_WTX260.pdf
_________________________
Bass is key.
----
Warmoth custom 4 string
* Quilted maple top/mahogany
* Maple neck, ebony board
* Audere preamp; Lindy Fralin pickups
* Badass bridge; Hipshot tuners.
Thx Joe Mergens at Mojotone.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939506 - 05/08/08 11:42 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: natobasso]
|
slowfinger
Senior Member
Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Melbourne, Oz
|
|
Online
|
|
Not that it's authoritative - in their blurb about the Mark Bass Little Mark II the Bass Centre (Melbourne) sez:
"The Mark Bass Little Mark II delivers 500 watts and weighs about 2.5 kilo. Four band EQ, VLE and VPF controls. These amps are incredibly simple to run and sound great. D series transformer gives unrivaled power to weight ratio whilst this simple yet incredibly effective preamp delivers great tones without the need for an engineering degree."
Maybe Nicklab was thinking about transformers, not amplifier class?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939516 - 05/09/08 01:05 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: slowfinger]
|
DavidMPires
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: England
|
Online
|
|
As per email from MB the Little MarkII is a class AB amp. Anyway that's not the point, they are light powerfull and with great tone, and the price is not that different from all the others around.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939524 - 05/09/08 02:05 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: DavidMPires]
|
C. Alexander C.
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 5075
Loc: Brighton, UK
|
|
Offline
|
|
Just to clarify things, you need to divide an amplifier (or more specifically a power amplifier or the power amplifier section of a head or combo) into it's two key parts, the power amplifier and the power supply. The heaviest part of an amp is normally the power supply.
There are two ways of making an amp lighter (for the same performance). Either increase the efficiency of the power amplifier section and thus reduce the size of the power supply, or change the power supply to working on a higher frequency and thus reduce the size of the transformer in the power supply.
A standard amp has a Class AB power amplifier section and a power supply whose transformer runs at mains frequency (50 or 60Hz). If you use a Class G or H amp (which are about 25% more efficient) you can reduce the size of the power supply by about 25%. If you then use a Class D power amplfier section instead (whose efficiency is about double that of a Class AB amp) you can halve the size/weight of the power supply.
Class D amps are not digital, they are high frequency switching amplifiers. Class G amps are Class AB with continuously variable rail voltage. Class H amps are Class AB with switchable rail voltage (usually two or three different voltages).
If you turn the mains electricity from AC to DC and then turn it back to AC at many kHz instead of ~50Hz then you can use a very small transformer to step down the voltage. This is called a Switch Mode Power Supply - SMPS. These are found all over the place - if a wall wart feels light then it has an SMPS in it. Although an SMPS is much more complex than a traditional power supply it contains much less copper in the transformer and with the rising price of copper this can make it not only lighter but cheaper!
So in decreasing order of weight (assuming equal quality/power implementations):
Class AB + Conventional Power Supply
Class G/H + Conventional Power Supply
Class D + Conventional Power Supply
Class AB + SMPS
Class G/H + SMPS
Class D + SMPS
Alex
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939547 - 05/09/08 04:39 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: C. Alexander C.]
|
Flemtone
Platinum Member
Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1344
Loc: Mine Hill, NJ
|
|
Offline
|
|
I like cheese.
_________________________
http://www.flemtones.net"Poor writing skills are the 60 cycle hum of the written word" -Brother Dave Brown
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939586 - 05/09/08 05:52 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: C. Alexander C.]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Online
|
|
Class D amps are not digital, they are high frequency switching amplifiers.
Class D amplifiers can be controlled by either analog or digital circuits. The digital control introduces additional distortion called quantization error caused by its conversion of the input signal to a digital value. Most HT applications employ digital front-end.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939587 - 05/09/08 05:54 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
rizzo9247
Gold Member
Registered: 04/12/07
Posts: 923
Loc: NYC
|
|
Offline
|
|
You're a digital front-end.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1939820 - 05/09/08 10:46 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: rizzo9247]
|
Big Daddy from Motown
Platinum Member
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 1140
Loc: Detroit, Mi.
|
|
Offline
|
|
Rizz what makes the same lame joke over and over, seem funny to you?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940053 - 05/10/08 02:47 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Bumpcity]
|
Bumpcity
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 5584
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
|
Offline
|
|
The Walkabout Scout went on its first gig tonight. My cover band played a decent sized bar down south in Tacoma. Holy hell that thing can put out some sound! Lots of low end as well. The sound man was none-more-impressed by how great it sounded and he was shocked that so much volume was coming out of something so tiny.
Big huge thumbs up. I'm taking it to my gig tomorrow night as well. Should be fun to see if it can keep up with a loud-ass rock band.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940061 - 05/10/08 03:34 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Bumpcity]
|
jitter
Senior Member
Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 110
|
|
Offline
|
|
@Bumpcity: http://xkcd.com/37/
SCNR,
jitter
_________________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
-- Leonardo da Vinci
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940226 - 05/10/08 11:38 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: jitter]
|
Bumpcity
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 5584
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
|
Offline
|
|
That's my new favorite website.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940228 - 05/10/08 11:42 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Bumpcity]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Online
|
|
That's my new favorite website.
Mine too - did you see "Pwned"? http://xkcd.com/91/
Either I'm an ultra-geek, or that's the funniest damned thing I've read in weeks. (Could be both!  )
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940269 - 05/10/08 12:55 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
jitter
Senior Member
Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 110
|
|
Offline
|
|
I stumbled across http://xkcd.com/202/ a few weeks ago and have been hooked ever since.
Obligatory music content: http://xkcd.com/119/ and http://xkcd.com/193/
jitter, who likes using this site's "Random" button while waiting for the compiler
Edited by jitter (05/10/08 01:07 PM)
_________________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
-- Leonardo da Vinci
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940407 - 05/10/08 07:52 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: jitter]
|
Tom Capasso
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 7394
Loc: east meadow,NY,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
I haven't tried any of these (except the walkabout), and don't need them since I'm playing a 14lb. EA 500. A heavy-weight in this crowd, but fine for me. I will try to test them (I love to learn about gear).
Griff - I haven't checked the pricing on these, but your criticism seemed a bit harsh. The fact that the technology isn't completely new doesn't necessarily set the pricing....
Tom
_________________________
www.stoneflyrocks.com Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1940415 - 05/10/08 08:16 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: jitter]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Online
|
|
Griff - I haven't checked the pricing on these, but your criticism seemed a bit harsh. The fact that the technology isn't completely new doesn't necessarily set the pricing....
Tom - I'm just saying that price per watt on these is way out of line with existing implementations of same.
Panasonic is selling a 7-channel x 100W HT amplifier based on the same technology for less than $300. Oh - and did I mention that the digital front end was far more complex (SPDIF for the Sony DVD players, TosLink for Toshiba, HDMI to make the RIAA happy) and the analog front-end even moreso (3 pairs of L/R + one set of 5.1 analog) than the Genz-Benz could dream of being, yet Genz wishes to rack me up for more than double the price-per-watt for what is essentially a lesser implementation (600W @ 4 Ohms, as opposed to 700W @ 6 Ohms) with a simpler front-end (a single mono input, with a cheap starved-plate "tube" preamp, similar to that of the ART Tube Pre) and output stage?
Call me what you will, Tom, I'm calling a spade a spade. The Class D and T digital switching amps have been around for a long, long time. Folks like Genz-Benz (and Crown, and everyone else who are dabbling in it) have the opportunity to take their good names and put them on a high-quality, inexpensive product that could straight-up crush bottom-feeders like Peavey and Behringer, yet they don't. Why? Because they're so protective of their brand image, they can't see the advantage in destroying competition that exists only because they won't price aggressively.
If Genz sold that amp for $300 (what they should) then Behringer's only response would be to leave out the fake tube pre to beat the price point. Hence, Genz protects their brand, because they offer something other than their brand for the higher price.
By throwing out a price point that leaves sooooo much room for Behringer to undercut them with a reverse-engineered version of their own product, they practically INVITE such tactics.
Edited by Griffinator (05/10/08 08:17 PM)
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1941732 - 05/13/08 04:38 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
TimR
Platinum Member
Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 1837
Loc: Hertfordshire (next to London)...
|
|
Offline
|
|
Does anyone have any reccomendations for a dealer selling the Shuttle 6.0 in the US that will sell overseas?
_________________________
Feel the groove internally within your own creativity. - fingertalkin Check us out here: REVIVAL
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1941745 - 05/13/08 04:59 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: TimR]
|
Bumpcity
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 5584
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Does anyone have any reccomendations for a dealer selling the Shuttle 6.0 in the US that will sell overseas?
Bass Northwest ships world wide.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1941783 - 05/13/08 05:59 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
Tom Capasso
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 7394
Loc: east meadow,NY,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
I'm not sure that you're wrong, Griff. I'm also not sure that the equation necessarily scales that way (because I'm not an engineer). And let's not forget that old cartoon character Caveat Emptor. It could be that some of these companies are just trying to improve their profit margin. Another question that I don't know the answer to is how many of those Panasonic amps will be sold vs. bass amps. You can do interesting things price-wise with the right volume. The fact that the price per watt is out of line may have many factors - higher profit margins may be only one of them. I do appreciate your bringing your experience along here.
Call me what you will, Tom, I'm calling a spade a spade.
I questioned your comment - I didn't call you anything. We're not allowed to call people things on this board
Tom
_________________________
www.stoneflyrocks.com Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1941900 - 05/13/08 11:32 PM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Tom Capasso]
|
DavidMPires
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: England
|
|
Online
|
|
I bought the mark bass @ a £1.15 per Watt, I think that's pretty good.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1941987 - 05/14/08 06:02 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
DavidMPires
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: England
|
|
Online
|
|
I do recognize that's cheap, but for instance if you want the mesa 400+ you know that you will have to pair more than that.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1942023 - 05/14/08 06:52 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: DavidMPires]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9361
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Online
|
|
Absolutely, and, if I had a mind to go get a Mesa 400+, I know someone who'd sell me the head with a 2x15 cab, all racked up in a flight case, for $1200.
But, I have no such inkling.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1942030 - 05/14/08 06:59 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: Griffinator]
|
DavidMPires
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: England
|
|
Online
|
|
That's a good deal... I don't know how much it costs the F1 in the other side of the pond but here it's about £600, I wouldn't consider that to be a crazy price, and i'm not loaded.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1942046 - 05/14/08 07:19 AM
Re: Class D amps / Compact Bass heads
[Re: DavidMPires]
|
forceman
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 4937
Loc: Metro-Detroit, Michigan
|
|
Offline
|
|
The F1 is going for $799USD new in the US.
a USED one just sold on eBay for $688USD...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Bob Gollihur (bob@gollihur.com), Tom Capasso, _Sweet Willie_
|
|
|
