#1938261 - 05/06/08 07:07 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: guitar_randy]
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Zephyr
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sounds like this guy got the raw end of a deal concerning a "vintage" guitar.
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#1938262 - 05/06/08 07:09 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Zephyr]
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A String
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sounds like this guy got the raw end of a deal concerning a "vintage" guitar.
I'd concur.
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#1938264 - 05/06/08 07:14 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: A String]
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Dr. Ellwood
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LOL!!! 
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#1938279 - 05/06/08 07:53 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Well, some of the points are rather valid, IMHO.
There's nothing intrinsically valuable about vintage guitars: they're worth what they're worth because collectors are willing to pay those prices for them. But one day, investment fashions MAY WELL CHANGE and the guitars probably won't be worth jack. But I guess most investments, besides precious metals and term deposits run the same risk. One day people will get tired of collecting old stamps, too.
Anyway... I don't think I'm going to be losing sleep over my $800,000 Les Pauls anytime soon! 
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#1938367 - 05/07/08 04:04 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Rampdog
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Well, some of the points are rather valid, IMHO. There's nothing intrinsically valuable about vintage guitars: they're worth what they're worth because collectors are willing to pay those prices for them. But one day, investment fashions MAY WELL CHANGE and the guitars probably won't be worth jack. But I guess most investments, besides precious metals and term deposits run the same risk. One day people will get tired of collecting old stamps, too. Anyway... I don't think I'm going to be losing sleep over my $800,000 Les Pauls anytime soon!
I gotta' roll with Vince on this... And not because I don't own or can afford collectables... Good article... Long article... But some great points and facts AND opinions in there...
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What Key Do I Play In? I Play In The Key Of "Fun"!!!
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#1938494 - 05/07/08 07:45 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: A String]
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Mike Gug
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sounds like this guy got the raw end of a deal concerning a "vintage" guitar. I'd concur.
Nah, there's much more to the article than that. He's got a vast amount of knowledge.
I wouldn't take his $10,000 challenge except for one '65 Strat I played in So. Cal at a vintage shop. That'd be an easy $10,000. 
Not all vintage is worthless, but some old guitars are just old and nothing more. Buy what sounds and plays good. If you can afford it, go for it. There are worse ways to spend money. I don't think the vintage market will go the way of beanie babies, but you never know.
My uncle owned a Gibson reverse Firebird (first production year). He was the original owner and he hated having it. Dozens of fellow musicians (many alcoholics and drug addicts... he hangs with a tough crowd) knew what it was and in what house it was kept. BTW, it played like crap IMO.
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#1938525 - 05/07/08 08:25 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Mike Gug]
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Caevan O'Shite
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I'll say this: only a very few of the truly vintage guitars that I've played in shops, market/conventions, and occasionally in private homes, were particularly extra-special enough tho have made me want to own them (even had they been much more reasonably priced, akin to used guitars of more recent make);
Many were of an overall quality that ranged from excellent to very good to nothing exciting, but "I'll pass";
Some were just plain dogs that no amount of set-up, skilled luthiery, and modification could improve past being playable but boring mediocreties at best (and polished turds at worst), no better than most any used budget- to mid-priced garden-variety guitars of more recent make.
This includes all the big-name makes, as well as notable also-rans and beginner/cheapo instruments of their day. All were overpriced, some tagged at five or six figures ten years ago...
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#1938543 - 05/07/08 08:57 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Caevan O'Shite]
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miroslav
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Mmmmmm....ahhhh....yeah....
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#1938555 - 05/07/08 09:20 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: miroslav]
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RobRose
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yeah, but Ed Roman's a bit of a crank. Bottom line: Vintage guitars are valuable because PEOPLE VALUE THEM.
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#1938658 - 05/07/08 11:59 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: RobRose]
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Matt Blackett
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He makes some interesting points, for sure. I don't buy the fact that there's no difference between new guitars and vintage pieces. Old Martins do sound different. Old Strat pickups get degaussed and they sound different. Plus, when instruments have been played for years and have some history, it does impart a certain vibe and mystique. I'm not saying I could tell this blindfolded like he suggests, but we all know that some guitars just have more magic than others and plenty of vintage guitars fall into that category. I can't afford to buy old Les Pauls either, but I have a blast playing them. And this guy should ask Seymour Duncan if there's any difference between a PAF and a new pickup. Like I said, there are some perfectly valid points in his article, but a lot of it to me is cynical and kind of sad. By his reasoning there's no difference between Jeff Beck playing a D chord and me playing a D chord. It's the exact same notes! It's nothing more than a D, an F#, and an A!
I'm just saying . . .
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#1938666 - 05/07/08 12:25 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Matt Blackett]
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Big Red 67
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9. Guitars are just tools. Takes one to know one. LOL!
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#1938705 - 05/07/08 01:37 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: stamplicker]
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fantasticsound
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I'm definitely of the opinion that guitars are tools that are built essentially the same over decades. However, all the materials in instruments age. Some of that aging is good and some isn't, but on the whole I do believe both acoustic and electric instruments that are played regularly and well cared for get better with age. But that assumes they weren't dogs to begin with. 
I love finely crafted wood and metal instruments but I'll play any instrument that sounds, plays and feels good in my hands. I've played all synthetic guitars that sing and supposedly great wood instruments that sound horrible.
I agree with the writer of the article that, in general, there is no good reason to buy a vintage instrument for the insane prices that are now commonplace. The risks, as he aptly pointed out, are too great unless you know the clear providence of the instrument. And by true providence I mean something in the order of the history of my Peavey T-60. My parents bought it for my brother at Gand Music & Sound when they were located on Old Skokie Rd. next door to Radio Shack and a clothes cleaner around 1978 or '79. I was there. I don't ever want to rely on someone else's information to know providence of an instrument. I'd rather not give a damn about exactly who owned a particular instrument. It would be really neat to know Les Paul owned a specific instrument I was considering for purchase, but it wouldn't be why I bought that instrument. That could only come from my liking its' sound & playability.
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#1938714 - 05/07/08 01:55 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Matt Blackett]
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miroslav
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... but we all know that some guitars just have more magic than others and plenty of vintage guitars fall into that category.
IMO the "magic"...the vibe...is in the eye and ear of the beholder.
A kid with his very first no-name-any-brand guitar might feel the same sense of "magic" that we veterans get from something much more defined/specific.
It's no different than when meeting someone for the first time and you really click or even fall in love...while for other people that same person has no special effect.
Guitars are a very personal experience...and while one may give off lots of magic and vibe to one person...someone else may not see it as anything more than just another guitar.
I think that applies to vintage and/or new guitars....but with vintage there is also that “old-time magic”, because you are holding something that was made 30-40-50 years ago...which is no different than any other antique.
Many people really do love old stuff…because there is automatically some "history" associated with a vintage piece and the wondering who might have played it...where has it been...etc...etc..
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1938728 - 05/07/08 02:16 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: miroslav]
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Zephyr
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I can agree he has some valid points, and most are pricey investments and should be researched thoroughly, but the real deals have earned their title; but he's saying every vintage guitar isn't worth it. To me, that's a load of BS. Is there anyone here that currently owns a "vintage guitar" and is unsatisfied?
Edited by Zephyr (05/07/08 02:19 PM)
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#1938763 - 05/07/08 03:32 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Zephyr]
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fantasticsound
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I don't hear what you hear exactly, Zephyr. I don't think he's making a case against all vintage instruments. If you read the entire piece he specifically states a vintage instrument that's priced around 5x the going rate for a modern equivalent could be a good investment if you really want a vintage guitar.
Your statement is contrary to many comments he made in the essay. He's absolutely not against all vintage instruments. He simply doesn't believe they are inherently more valuable (as a group) than the modern equivalent. Certainly not ridiculously more valuable, as is the case with most of the vintage market these days.
He never said anything about owners of vintage instruments being inherently unsatisfied, either. Just like his goofball challenge, the answer to your last question means nothing in regards to the quality, sound and playability issues when comparing new vs. used vs. vintage.
Like Ed Roman, I agree with much of what the writer states although not all of it and to varying degrees depending on the specific point he makes.
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#1938783 - 05/07/08 04:03 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: RobRose]
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Squ
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Bottom line: Vintage guitars are valuable because PEOPLE VALUE THEM.
Yes!
Why are certain guitars worth $400,000? Because certain people will buy them for $400,000! Do they sound $399,000 better than any of my guitars? I would say no.
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#1938973 - 05/07/08 11:08 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: guitar_randy]
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GuitarPlayerFL
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Vintage guitars don't affect me as I can not afford them and would only buy them as an investment. I have a friend with a late 50s Les Paul Black Beauty and he's counting on it towards his retirement. I hope it's value goes ridiculously high for his sake.
With the exception of acoustics(that I understand can sound better and mellow with age), I totally prefer new guitars. I believe they can be made better today. The technology and design has gotten better. And I love how a shiny new guitar looks. 
The Relics that companies make are really ugly and non-appealing to me.
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#1938975 - 05/07/08 11:26 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: GuitarPlayerFL]
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Part-timer
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I wish I kept a lot of guitars, not because they play better, but they are worth retirement money.
I have played 58 and 59 LPs and found many new LPs that blow them away. I have my Strat exactly the way I like it. It plays better than any Strat I have played, no matter what year.
But to be fair, it plays the way I want it to. Not everyone would agree.
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#1939075 - 05/08/08 06:27 AM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Part-timer]
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Eric Iverson
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I wish I still had my '62 Strat, (stolen in 1974) which sounded great, with an unusually full mid-range, albeit with a lousy neck. Not sure what the resale value would be. To make it play as good as it sounded, I would have had to make it less VINTAGE.....
I do have a beautiful old Fender Precision bass, '60s vintage, that my dad gave me - it cost him $150 - from some musician down on his luck, I presume. It's a great instrument, worth far more than $150 of course! But when I play it, I think of my departed dad, not the money it MIGHT be worth!
In general, I think the vintage market is grossly inflated and that there will have to be a market correction, and that certain instruments go in and out of style. So, unless you're desperate to have a certain instrument for other reasons, maybe you might not want to be in a HURRY to get a second mortgage on your house!
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#1939369 - 05/08/08 04:17 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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blueross
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I'm just glad I got my mid-60's guitars when I did. I couldn't afford them now. I kind of like the idea that I'm playing guitars that are almost as old as I am. It was worth a small premium, but not worth what I would have to pay today.
I got my '66 335 for about a grand more than I might have paid for a new one. I'm ok with that. Same for my '67 Tele. But now, with the Tele, I've had to replace pickups because the bridge PU died and the neck PU turned out to be a cheap copy. So, it's not original, but so what? I still love playing it. And one of these days I'll have the bridge PU rewound... But it kind of makes one of the points in the article. They are old and they don't have warranties. I think there are a lot of good thoughts in the article and I had started thinking that way since the vintage prices went off the charts. Next one I buy will likely be new-ish.
Anyway, they're my toys and my second (and third, and fourth, and fifth... ) loves. Money doesn't matter (much).
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#1939956 - 05/09/08 05:56 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: blueross]
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guitarzan6000
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I gotta admit I agree with him. Although I still wish I had my old '67 L.P. back, not for "investment reasons" it was just a good guitar.
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#1940001 - 05/09/08 08:48 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: RobRose]
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Picker
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There's a guy who's big in collecting '59 Les Paul 'bursts, owns a bunch of them, named Tom Wittrock. He lives in Springfield, Missouri, and he doesn't think much of me. He didn't like it when I told him anyone who had a lot of guitars like that locked up so that no one could play them ought to be forced into Liza Minelli drag & made to sing "New York New York" on the stage of a gay bar, then tarred & feathered, kneecapped, and tied spread-eagle to a tree so that anyone who never got to play a '59 'burst could come by and kick him in the crotch a time or two.
I think that's fair...
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#1940016 - 05/09/08 09:40 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Picker]
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Fumblyfingers
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Boy that guy has a size 10 hair up his ass. I'll tell you what makes me sick is all the bullshit that pours out of peoples mouths sometimes. Who the hell cares. Play your guitar and enjoy it and if you don't enjoy it, go and buy one that does give you enjoyment.
What I find so often is the people going off about vintage gear being not worth it, cannot afford it, so they start bagging on how the prices are out of control. I would imagine most of them secretly wish they could own a really nice old instrument with all the right stuff...good action, nice old aged wood, sweet old wiring and electrical parts....ton's of mojo and vibe.
So what if he feels he can prove a new guitar off the shelf sounds as good or better.....I can probably also prove a Hyundai is just as good as a Mercedes if I sprout a load of crap for long enough that I start to believe it myself.
I have a bunch of guitars some decent, some bargain basement.....my real '64 Strat is light years away from the rest of them in all respects.
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#1940019 - 05/09/08 09:46 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Picker]
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Dreamer
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[quote=Picker]I told him anyone who had a lot of guitars like that locked up so that no one could play them ought to be forced into Liza Minelli drag & made to sing "New York New York" on the stage of a gay bar, then tarred & feathered, kneecapped, and tied spread-eagle to a tree so that anyone who never got to play a '59 'burst could come by and kick him in the crotch a time or two.
Ouch...  
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#1940032 - 05/09/08 10:39 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Picker]
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Bluesape
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There's a guy who's big in collecting '59 Les Paul 'bursts, owns a bunch of them, named Tom Wittrock. He lives in Springfield, Missouri, and he doesn't think much of me. He didn't like it when I told him anyone who had a lot of guitars like that locked up so that no one could play them ought to be forced into Liza Minelli drag & made to sing "New York New York" on the stage of a gay bar, then tarred & feathered, kneecapped, and tied spread-eagle to a tree so that anyone who never got to play a '59 'burst could come by and kick him in the crotch a time or two.
I think that's fair...
C'mon, tell us how ya really feel, without all that sugar coating! 
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#1940035 - 05/09/08 11:09 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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So what if he feels he can prove a new guitar off the shelf sounds as good or better.....I can probably also prove a Hyundai is just as good as a Mercedes if I sprout a load of crap for long enough that I start to believe it myself.
Whoever wrote the article goes into a lot more than just the sound. You are picking on ONE point, whereas the guy makes several interesting other points.
The way that YOU may be buying a vintage guitar in good faith but if it's stolen, that's your problem sounds like a real worry. If the guitar you buy turns out to have been stolen thirty years ago then, apparently, you have to give it back with no compensation to you. Mind you, one wonders whether there may not be a status of limitations on this stuff.
The growing possibility of counterfeits being pushed onto the market is another valid point. IIRC, the author's points out that there's so many counterfeit paintings in museums out there, even with the modern level of expertise and technology that the chances of buying a counterfeit guitar are pretty high. Especially seeing how vague production details on early guitars can be.
The lack of specialized "collector's guitar" insurance (also mentioned) could also be a problem, especially in situations such as the author describes, where most insurance companies are only set up to offer basic home and contents and have difficulty understanding why an AC malfunction in your guitar room while you're on six weeks holiday could be a reason for claiming.
Yeah, I think it's a well thought out article, not that I've ever had any of those problems. But if I had to invest in something, I'd probably put the money in term deposits or real estate or something a bit more tangible than a guitar.
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#1940271 - 05/10/08 12:57 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Eric Iverson
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[quote=Picker]I told him anyone who had a lot of guitars like that locked up so that no one could play them ought to be forced into Liza Minelli drag & made to sing "New York New York" on the stage of a gay bar, then tarred & feathered, kneecapped, and tied spread-eagle to a tree so that anyone who never got to play a '59 'burst could come by and kick him in the crotch a time or two.
-------------------------
I wouldn't have put it that way, but it IS pretty selfish to keep these instruments out of the hands of people who would actually PLAY them, by keeping them in your basement or raising the price so much that the same result occurs.
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#1940296 - 05/10/08 01:46 PM
Re: 10 reasons why vintage guitars are not worth the money
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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Fumblyfingers
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It's the same with art innit? I went to a guys house who had a Rodin sculpture and all this art including a Piccasso valued at over a mil and a half....this was in 1992 or 1993. This dude was an oil guy from the Middle East, one of the richest men in the world, and he only lived in the house for a couple months in the year...... not all at one time.
A mutual friend ran the estate and my band went to party there a couple times...this is an old Elvis house and Marilyn lived there,originally a famous silent movies directors house.... Esther Williams house was on the estate as well......friggen HUGE with lasers in the yard and killer dobermanns LOL.......but the point is that this art is out of the view of the public only to be enjoyed by him a couple months out the year.
It's unfortunate but hey, that's how it goes.
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