#1936808 - 05/04/08 11:11 AM
VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
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DusanZ
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Hi there!
I need advice. I want to buy an guitar amp, not large one, I will use it for practising home and practising with band and maybe for recording my tunes. I thought about combo amp around 30 watts. I would like it to have nice jazzy clean but also tight overdriven sound good for rock music. I don't have much knowledge about amps. I saw video presentation of Line 6 spider but I understand it uses amp modeling to achieve large variety of sounds. My budget is 400-500 euros. Do you think it would be good for me? Or, do you have any suggestion?
Thanks
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#1936811 - 05/04/08 11:24 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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mdrs
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First, WELCOME TO OUR FORUM. RETURN OFTEN!! 
I'd go valve. And, I'd check out Rivera Clubsters or Pubsters, or Fender Tweed Deluxe reissue, or even a reissue Fender tweed Bassman (might be ?? over your budget??).
Rivera and Fender combos are great for clean headroom, and when pushed will crunch nicely.
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#1936829 - 05/04/08 11:52 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: mdrs]
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guitarzan
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First, WELCOME TO OUR FORUM. RETURN OFTEN!! I'd go valve. And, I'd check out Rivera Clubsters or Pubsters, or Fender Tweed Deluxe reissue, or even a reissue Fender tweed Bassman (might be ?? over your budget??). Rivera and Fender combos are great for clean headroom, and when pushed will crunch nicely.
true about those esp Rivera.
a 30 watt modelling amp will not hang with a band unless it is miked or put through a PA direct. i have not heard of any modelling combos with really rich cleans, they seem to favour crunch.
one exception is Yamaha's discontinued DG100 , those kick major butt. and i have used the direct out with great results. i had one and i must say it was a very useful and tonally sweet amp.
if you go modelling a used DG100 or DG80 is an option.
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#1936838 - 05/04/08 12:02 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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GuitarPlayerFL
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I love my POD 2.3's versatility, but if I could be happy with 1 or 2 really good tones, I'd get a nice tube amp. Good for finding your own signature tone.
If you're going to play cover tunes with a band and need to get a lot of different tones, modeling is the way.
Or, get both. 
_________________________
A great Jazz/Chord Melody Master (my former instructor http://www.robertconti.comLP/Strat/Tele/PV/Wolfgang/POD/JTM 45 Keys: RD700SX/XP-10/Karma (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal) "I Love L.A." - Randy Newman
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#1936841 - 05/04/08 12:12 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: guitarzan]
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mdrs
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First, WELCOME TO OUR FORUM. RETURN OFTEN!! I'd go valve. And, I'd check out Rivera Clubsters or Pubsters, or Fender Tweed Deluxe reissue, or even a reissue Fender tweed Bassman (might be ?? over your budget??). Rivera and Fender combos are great for clean headroom, and when pushed will crunch nicely. true about those esp Rivera. a 30 watt modelling amp will not hang with a band unless it is miked or put through a PA direct. i have not heard of any modelling combos with really rich cleans, they seem to favour crunch. one exception is Yamaha's discontinued DG100 , those kick major butt. and i have used the direct out with great results. i had one and i must say it was a very useful and tonally sweet amp. if you go modelling a used DG100 or DG80 is an option.
Well, the Roland JC-120 (or the JC-60......I've owned both, and still have the 120) are great for loud clean tone....many Jazz guys gig with them, esp. the 120. Also, their on board stereo chorus is the finest chorus effect I've heard....And, with a pedal like a Boss MT-2 Metal Zone, it will do the metal thing fairly well too.
I'd still go with a tube amp....
BTW...I keep the JC-120 as my secret weapon.....DON'T TELL ANYONE!!  If I was playing out, I'd have the JC-120 running at all times along with a Marshall. And, I'd have the on board stereo chorus on. The Roland JC-120 played low in the mix along side of a Marshall makes your sound wide, fat, and fantastic...it really gives your tone some character...it's not far off of the way Frampton is set up live.
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#1936874 - 05/04/08 01:39 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: mdrs]
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Dr. Ellwood
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"BTW...I keep the JC-120 as my secret weapon.....DON'T TELL ANYONE!! "
Doc..............> You little stinker you!!
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#1936887 - 05/04/08 02:28 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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Bluesape
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Perhaps some of our European members can offer accurate pricing on amps they know of, but valve(or tube, as we say here) is the way to go for a long term amp. Line 6 has the Spidervalve, which is highly reviewed, but beyond your budget.
_________________________
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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#1936891 - 05/04/08 02:41 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Bluesape]
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Zephyr
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Perhaps some of our European members can offer accurate pricing on amps they know of, but valve(or tube, as we say here) is the way to go for a long term amp. Line 6 has the Spidervalve, which is highly reviewed, but beyond your budget.
Let's see, 400-500 euros is a little more than 600 USD and a little less than 800 USD, so a Spider Valve is a possibility.
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#1936915 - 05/04/08 04:01 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Zephyr]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Let's see, 400-500 euros is a little more than 600 USD and a little less than 800 USD, so a Spider Valve is a possibility.
Well, yes and no. I think you're probably right, but you also have to factor in the actual shipping costs from the USA to Europe, eventual import duties and all that. Gear in Europe is usually more expensive than in America.
A straight out exchange-rate calculation doesn't always work.
I don't see anything wrong with the modelling option except that a: they can be a tad noisy for recording (with headphones you can hear the electronic humming and stuff, at least on my Vox) and b: 30W is not loud enough to keep up with a rock drummer.
But if I ws you, I'd go and have a look at all the amps I could. I mean, how "jazzy" is "jazzy"? Only you know that for sure. Go check out what amps are available and take them on their own merits. And then maybe if they cost too much, you can find a second-hand one. But 30W is a bit small. 50W is much more reasonable. I've seen hardcore gigs played with a Valvetronix 50W amp. And that was a two-guitar band, too.
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#1936920 - 05/04/08 04:23 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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miroslav
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I say valve without any reservations...but you might want to check out who the European tube amp manufaturers are...and score one of those...or just visit you local music stores and see which ones they are importing that fall within your price range.
It's hard to tell you what to buy for your 400-500 euros, since prices may be quite different from country to country depending on where the amps are coming from.
Some of the Epiphone valve amps may be a good introductory step for you before you drop bigger $$$ on something more substantial.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1936965 - 05/04/08 06:02 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: miroslav]
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's mel gibson
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My problem with modeling amps or multi fx pedals is that you have to go hunting for your next sound effect.
You can set up a few fx for foot button activation but any more than a few and you have to peck thru the one's you don't want.
Go valve and get a nice pedal board. Used Fender Deluxe Reverb RI's and used Marshalls are out there.
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#1937018 - 05/04/08 07:58 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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It's hard to tell you what to buy for your 400-500 euros, since prices may be quite different from country to country depending on where the amps are coming from.
Well, to give you an idea, I paid €315 for my 30W Valvetronix. I found out later I could have bought it at another store for about €290. That's not exactly cheap by US standards.
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#1937129 - 05/05/08 06:44 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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Caevan O'Shite
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I also highly recommend going with a real, live all-tube amp for your stated wants and needs- it'll more easily cover all those bases than any digital-modeling/solid-state amp will, despite the seemingly obvious "versatility" promised by modeling. In real-life live/band settings, few, if any, modelers really hang in there with the rest of the instruments, and I speak from experience here.
Some great suggestions here so far; I'll kick in a vote for a Fender Deluxe Reverb- "blackface", "silverface", or "bf-second-series" (early '80s versions), or a Deluxe Reverb "Reissue"; the RI has the greatest chance of these of being within your price-range. A bit under your stated power rating, but not exactly anemic, either, not by a long stretch.
If you run across a Carvin "Vintage 33" 1x12 combo, it'd be worth trying out, as well. I have one, and I have a sort of a love/hate relationship with it; and while I want (and have) other amps, I don't think I'll ever part with it.
With any good tube-amp, try setting its volume a bit louder than you intend to play, and roll back the guitar's volume-control; use the guitar's volume-knob to govern not only how loud, but how clean or overdriven and biting the tone is. Learn to literally "play the amp". I can't recommend this enough, I was very late in truly appreciating this approach and technique myself, and if I had genuinely grasped this long ago I may have kept some great amps that I so stupidly traded and sold over the years! Hind-sight's 20/20, right?  
A possible exception- and I'm going by second-hand but probably quite reliable information here- is that newer Spider Valve (sp?) amp powered by a tube output-section, if I recall correctly; "Gifthorse" has been mightily pleased and impressed with one, and he's had some particularly snazzy all-tube amps before. (I have yet to try one of these amps for myself.)
And I'll second Guitarzan's recommendation of the Yamaha DG modeling amps, they were quite stout-hearted performers amongst the modeling crowd that managed more than most to sound and feel like "real" amps.
But I'd still recommend a real tube-amp in the 30-watt range first.
_________________________
~Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite~
_ _ ___ _ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
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#1938064 - 05/06/08 01:18 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Caevan O'Shite]
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RobRose
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As a long-time modeler user and tube amp user, I can say that there are some best-of-both-world options.
But first you need to do some soul searching:
Are you looking to establish YOUR tone? Are you looking to faithfully recreate sounds you've hears before?
Answers to these questions will help you decide,. I've found that using modeling amps are terrific if you are playing in a cover band and you want the flexibility of playing a wide variety of sounds. If you are looking to establish your own identity, then a tube amp is the way to go.
The Line 6 Spider Valve and the Hughes&Kettner Switchblade are two excptions that can cover offf the middle ground between them...
Good luck.
_________________________
LP, CS-336, TA DropTop T, Gretsch 6121 Nashville, ASAT Cstm, Ravelle Cstm, Cstm Shop Strats, Reverend Charger290 & Parris Models, Custom Variax, Martin DC16RGTE
Bogner Shiva, Carr Vincent amps
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#1938072 - 05/06/08 01:29 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: miroslav]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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A bunch of us here ... Lee, Doc, Miro, etc... are solidly into what we consider 'real' amps. Not all fo them are tube. But few of them are modeling amps. We all have various reasons as to why we prefer that path. Most of us have been through various modelers or emulators.
Were you to come over and ask that question, I would without reservation show you a bunch of amps and outboard effects and you'd get the "why" we have that preference.
That does not mean that you would not find a modeler to be a perfect solution for your needs.
However, I am willing to bet good money that, as you continue on your journey, eventually you'll find yourself also looking at non-modeling solutions.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1938082 - 05/06/08 01:44 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: mdrs]
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Mudcat
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...I keep the JC-120 as my secret weapon.....DON'T TELL ANYONE!! If I was playing out, I'd have the JC-120 running at all times along with a Marshall. And, I'd have the on board stereo chorus on. The Roland JC-120 played low in the mix along side of a Marshall makes your sound wide, fat, and fantastic...
Hey Doc,
I just noticed your comment. The arrangement you describe was used by Billy Duffy on the first album by the Cult. I absolutely loved his tone on that one. It was before he started ripping off Malcom Young's tone.
_________________________
Mudcat's music on Soundclick "Work hard. Rock hard. Eat hard. Sleep hard. Grow big. Wear glasses if you need 'em."-The Webb Wilder Credo-
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#1938126 - 05/06/08 03:05 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: RobRose]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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If you are looking to establish your own identity, then a tube amp is the way to go.
Erm... tube amps are not one offs, thet are mass produced and thousands of people buy the various makes and models.
What makes you say that by buying a Marshall, for example, you are establishing "your own identity"?
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#1938233 - 05/06/08 06:02 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Gifthorse
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Dude, get a Line 6 Spidervalve. I have played for 28 years now and I am picky about tone. I hate the way modellers feel. But I have 0 qualms about the Spidervalve. Sounds reacts 100% tube.
It has to be loud, and it is VERY VERY loud. 40 watts. By the way, I disagree with Kramer about 30 watts not being loud enough for a drummer. I owned a THD Bivalve and it was plenty loud.
I could go on and on and list teh reasons why the Spidervalve is a superior choice in your price range to everything else but you probably won't believe me. Most tube purists have this prejudgment in thier minds about modellers. I know I did, until I owned this thing. No amp I have ever owned sounds as good or cuts through a mix as well. I also can notice 0 of that modelling compressed fizz when it is loud. It also cleans up on every channel as if you are playing a single channel amp (with your guitar volume).
Keep in mind it is a very complex amp with tons of variables. It is something that you have to experiment with before you can judge it. In other words if you go to GC and plug into it for 3 min and play at low volume don't come and tell me it sounds like a modeller. You have to read the manual and realize that every amp channel needs to be eq'd differently just like the real amps.
I think for the money it is the best amp EVER offered guitarists. The power section totally opens up with volume. I would put mine against most amps in a $1000 price range and feel confident it could compete and even beat some/most of the competition.
Not to say there aren't other good amps to choose from, I just think this one is better for the money.
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#1938237 - 05/06/08 06:04 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Gifthorse]
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Gifthorse
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Maybe I didn't mention the SV has a 6l6 tube power section designed by Bogner. Maybe it doesn't compete with a Bogner amp, but they are thousands of dollars. But my buddy from Line 6 said Bogner specifically said, "i will not put my name on a piece of sh*t"
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#1938250 - 05/06/08 06:35 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Gifthorse]
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soggybomb
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hughes and kettner are a great european amp company, and therefore shipping costs are lower, and you will be able to find a better amp to suit your needs. i think that a Hughes & Kettner Edition Tube 20th Anniversary Combo Amp fits into your price range if my conversions are correct.
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#1943677 - 05/18/08 06:53 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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DusanZ
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I wanna thank you all for help about getting an practice amp!
I got an VOX AD30vt XL and I am still testing it. I don't have much experience with amps so it could be quite possible for me to try finding something else so keep me informed about your favorites and experience! Thanks again!
http://www.soundclick.com/dusanz
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#1943681 - 05/18/08 07:09 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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RobRose
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Erm yourself.
A tube amp still has a narrower range of sounds. Most guitar players like to think that their tone is their tone. When you play through a modeling amp, it's most often someone else's tone. When I play with modelers, and still do in the studio, I eschew all of the factory patches and build up faithful amp models of my 6 favourite amps or so, and basically build out custom rigs. It's time-consuming, but rewarding. The knock that many modeling amps get is that they sound like every one else. That's not my knock, that's a common complaint. I don't believe it's necessary that they do, but unless you're willing to painstakingly program them, they absolutely will.
I never meant that with a tube amp, one's sound will be utterly unique, but it will be consistently yours, and will help to establish a playing tone that one can identify with.
_________________________
LP, CS-336, TA DropTop T, Gretsch 6121 Nashville, ASAT Cstm, Ravelle Cstm, Cstm Shop Strats, Reverend Charger290 & Parris Models, Custom Variax, Martin DC16RGTE
Bogner Shiva, Carr Vincent amps
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#1943709 - 05/18/08 08:05 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: RobRose]
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Fumblyfingers
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I think also that it has to do with the outboard gear added.My 100W Marshall JCM 800 with my particular set of pedals, rack preamp and delay, reverb and multi EFX along with my particular guitar/pickup combinations, speakers AND my personal tone and style that I would hope is in my hands LOL....will give a MUCH different sound to someone else with the same amp.
Plus too I would imagine there are much bigger differences amp to amp off an all tube amp assembly line than with modeled amps. I could be wrong but I would imagine digital/solid state/single 12AX7 type setups to be way more consistent than an amp with multiple tubes in it.
I think the modelers will also get some differences depending on pedal boards and rack stuff and the players own sound, but perhaps they are so heavy on the modeling that it is harder for tonal individuality to really shine through.
I am no amp specialist, this is just my opinion.
Rob I liked the Garageband music...that B3 is a bit high in the beginning of Frunk and buries the crunch guitar a bit, nice clean funky groove...Serengeti is cool too...I like your writing style.....are the synth thingy's all loops or are you triggering stuf as well?
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#1943710 - 05/18/08 08:12 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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Fumblyfingers
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Hey DusanZ man you play great, I was listening to some stuff at your Soundclick....good stuff. I like Rock Trio......you get down there....excellent!
How is the music scene in Yugoslavia? Feel free to fill us in
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#1943812 - 05/18/08 11:18 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: DusanZ]
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Rhino Madness
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http://www.soundclick.com/dusanz
Cool tunes there DusanZ! It was cool to see Vlatko Stefanovski as one of your influences. A buddy from Macedonia who used to live down the street from him gave me a tape of Vlatko's Cowboys and Indians about 15 or so years ago and it was filled with great music and playing!
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#1943819 - 05/18/08 11:29 AM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Rhino Madness]
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Dr. Ellwood
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Yes, I like Rock Trio also!! and some of the other tracks on the site too! Very nice work!!
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#1943897 - 05/18/08 01:45 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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My 100W Marshall JCM 800 with my particular set of pedals, rack preamp and delay, reverb and multi EFX along with my particular guitar/pickup combinations, speakers AND my personal tone and style that I would hope is in my hands LOL....will give a MUCH different sound to someone else with the same amp...
I think the modelers will also get some differences depending on pedal boards and rack stuff
Ah, and that's an interesting point. Has anyone managed to get a decent sound happening with a modelling amp + a multi FX?
I once tried running a Zoom GFX into my Vox Valvetronix and got nothing but really weird (and unuseable) distortion for my trouble. It was a bit like listening to a radio that's not quite tuned into the station. Apparently, the signal, as it comes out of multi FX boxes with amp modeling is too "whatever" (strong? processed?), at least for the Valvetronix.
The problem MAY just be limited to Zoom + Valvetronix, but I wouldn't be surprised if "modeler into modeler" was not a problem with other amp/FX combinations as well. I must admit that it never occurred to me at the time that it may have been the modeler on the multi FX so, perhaps, it would have been sufficient to disable that option on the patches I was using.
On the positive side, I've never had any probs when running analog pedals into the Valvetronix.
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#1943947 - 05/18/08 03:05 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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GeoffB
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Generally speaking, the received wisdom for MFX boxes into amps is to take off the cab sim. I've tried it with and without and some need it and some don't - it's a Digitech GNX-1. Also, it's got a volume knob, so output gain is adjustable.
I've found it works pretty well using it as a pre-amp and running it into the FX Return of the Laney VC30, as does also the Digitech Genesis 1, although the output from the Genesis isn't high enough to really drive the output stage of the Laney - the GNX has bags of output.
G.
_________________________
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix
Frank M:Back in the day you could have a trio with two people.
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#1943988 - 05/18/08 04:08 PM
Re: VALVE OR MODELING AMP ???
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Zephyr
Platinum Member
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 1339
Loc: CT, USA
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I'll third Rock Trio, good stuff
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