#1928694 - 04/17/08 08:57 PM
Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
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Virtual Jim
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Hi all. Long time no post. Sorry about that. But I do have questions for those that might have an answer.
I'm a rock electric guitarist that would like to get into fingerstyle playing so that I can play complete pieces by myself. Ultimately, I'd like to learn both classical and folk styles, but since I like classical music more than folk, I'm going with classical first.
First question if I may: can someone suggest a good book and/or video for an electric guitarist trying to go classical? Perusing some method books at a classical guitar store around here, not surprisingly, it seems like they're all geared toward the total newbie or advanced player. Know of a middle ground?
Second: right now I'm jamming it out on a combination of my PRS CE22 and my steel string acoustic. This is partly by design as I'd like to be able to readily adapt any skill I learn in this quest to electric guitar. I'd be lying if the final scene in Crossroads wasn't at least a small inspiration on this. Does the wider neck on the PRS make this seem not-quite-out-there as an idea? The cost of buying a classical guitar is not the point here as I can swing a beginner model, even after Tuesday.
Can anyone argue for or against this idea of learning on my PRS and acoustic?
If anyone would like to comment on my questions or share their experiences learning classical after years playing rock, I'd really like to see them.
Thanks!
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#1928738 - 04/17/08 11:53 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Virtual Jim]
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Gifthorse
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I played classical when I started for 3 years. You have to learn to sight read if you can't already. Thats why you start as a beginner. Also the fingerstyle is very calculating and efficient. Thats also where the beginner books come in. Can you do rest strokes and use your thumb for the low 3 strings and other 3 fingers on the top 3 strings? These are why you have to start over for classical.
Classical guitar is the most technically advanced form of fingerstyle. If you hear a master playing classical the technical brilliance is awe inspiring.
As for learning it on steel string, I think you could but the dynamics transfer differently to nylon string. Nylon is its own animal. Whenever I play a nylon stringed guitar my tone really sux compared to someone who plays it exclusively. It has a softer feel and more sublte approach.
Also that solo in Crossroads really isn't 'classical guitar'. It is rock guitar loosely based on a violin solo. Actually advanced classical guitar is FAR more difficult than that single note composition that is more flash than classical technique. I am sure it is flat picked cuz I learned it when I was in highschool.
I have even read Steve Vai recorded it and then sped up the recording.
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#1928801 - 04/18/08 05:33 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Justus A. Picker]
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Eric Iverson
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I agree about the instructor. He could save you lots of time by showing you efficient techniques right from the start.
BTW, there is vastly more to fingerstyle playing than "folk". Quite a number of people have done excellent things: check out Chris Proctor, Lenny Breau, Chet Atkins and many, many others!
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#1928841 - 04/18/08 07:13 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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Scott Fraser
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I play fingerstyle (lapsed & corrupted classical) & use a PRS SE as my main gig axe. The fingerboard is the most accommodating I've encountered thus far.
I'll second the mention of any of the Fred Noad instruction books. He had a PBS show here in LA for many years through the 60's & 70's, & I engineered & edited many of the accompanying tapes/CDs for those books. I would say he had an exceptional grasp on leading the novice through the process of classical technique & repertoire.
I also see lots of really cheap nylon string instruments for sale on Craigslist. For under $100 you could get something which will at least be a start. All my lessons were on a cheap Gianinni, the Harmony Stella of classical guitars.
Scott Fraser
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#1928951 - 04/18/08 10:11 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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MILLO
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If "Eugene's Trick Bag" is your thing, then just study Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony Macalpine, Vinnie Moore, etc.
If you'd like to learn classical guitar for the first time, consider yourself a newbie ESPECIALLY if you're not an extremely fluent sight-reader. Feel free to learn on the acoustic, Id avoid the PRS. However, I'd buy a classical... Yamaha makes some decent cheapos (higher than $300) or you can go online and this company's cheapest model: http://www.pavanguitars.com ...Of all the "cheap" classicals out there I've tired, this one sounds and plays the best.
Frederick Noad's First Book of the Guitar, or Solo Guitar Method is not bad. Matteo Carcassi's method has been making the rounds since the 19th century. I also like Cristopher PArkening's book for teaching, but because of the music--I'd advice you to bypass any pics/info on "correct" right-hand technique, for that go Aaron Shearer's books. DEFINITELY check out Scott Tennant's book Pumping Nylon, and William Kanengiser's DVD Effortless Classical Guitar.
Also, I'd recommend these recordings:
Manuel Barrueco--300 Years of Guitar Masterpieces
Denis Azabagic--Guitar Recital (Naxos)
John Williams--Concierto de Aranjuez/Fantasía para un gentilhombre (CBS/Sony?)
Sérgio & Odair Assad-play Rameau, Bach, Scarlatti, Couperin
Franco Platino--Guitar Recital (Naxos)
These will give you an idea of the "classical sound", a big part of playing the classical guitar.
ENJOY!
Edited by MILLO (04/18/08 06:12 PM)
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#1929074 - 04/18/08 01:16 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: MILLO]
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soggybomb
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I am learning classical technique, and I must say that an instructor is an invaluable resource. But make sure the instructor has a wide breadth of knowledge. It is also important to be able to read standard musical notation.
As far as the axe question, IMO it is substantially harder to play fingerstyle with steel strings. I recommend either buying a regular nylon string acoustic, or either of these two guitars, as you expressed interest in transitioning back to electric.
>Carvin NS-1
>Godin Multiac
Edited by soggybomb (04/24/08 02:47 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#1929113 - 04/18/08 02:44 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: MILLO]
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Justus A. Picker
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Also, I'd recommend these recordings:
Manuel Barrueco--300 Years of Guitar Masterpieces
Denis Azabagic--Guitar Recital (Naxos)
John Williams--Concierto de Aranjuez/Fantasía para un gentilhombre (CBS/Sony?)
Sérgio & Odair Assad-play Rameau, Bach, Scarlatti, Couperin
Franco Platino--Guitar Recital (Naxos)
These will give you an idea of the "classical sound", a big part of playing the classical guitar.
ENJOY!
You forgot Julian Bream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mZvdGAGlOo
and, horror of horrors, Segovia!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG7y_CD9rMg
_________________________
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#1929144 - 04/18/08 04:09 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Justus A. Picker]
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Warthog
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The king of fingerstyle. Sorry I've posted this before...
Doyle Dykes
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ATTACK!
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#1929175 - 04/18/08 05:20 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Warthog]
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Fingerstyle_Jim
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I agree with all of the above advice, learn classical technique first, including the part about sight reading and getting a nylon string guitar. Even a cheap plywood top will get you started and these can be found pretty cheap. I was a rock player first but once I decided to go fingerstyle I quit my band, got a nylon string and spent 2 years getting the basics down. Now(a few years after the initial 2 years) I can play a big repertoire that includes Bach, Sanz, Guiliani, Sor and many others from the past plus a lot of contemporary pieces from bands like the Beatles, Genesis, Kansas, Lep Zep, and a lot of my own compositions, once you get a handle on it you can apply it to anything. I often practise this music on a solid body electric just because it's quiet and light. This is not a road everybody will want to take but I have found it to be very rewarding, I can take bookings for weddings and banquets and (did I mention this before?) have TOTAL CONTROL and ALL THE MONEY bwahahaha(oooops, sorry, again!).
Jim
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#1929209 - 04/18/08 07:02 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Fingerstyle_Jim]
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Virtual Jim
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Thanks, guys. If anyone else has thoughts, I'd like to see them.
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#1930692 - 04/22/08 10:22 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Virtual Jim]
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Traktor Topaz
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It's not the same as classical, of course, but if the goal is solo play, then the two-handed tapping or touch-style technique, properly done, permits solo performance either on normal guitar or on a specialty instrument.
Although the ability of people playing Chapman Stick or Mobius Megatar to do solo work is fairly well known, many of these techniques can be done on normal guitar. It's slightly faster to learn two-handed tapping -- like chords left-hand over which you play melody with right -- on an instrument made for the technique; however, many people have learned how to do it on normal guitar.
I'm not talking about Eddy Van Halen two-handed runs, but of playing the two hands separately, more like a piano (chords and melody). There's a forum called Tappistry Org where many of the members play different styles on normal guitar.
You could of course play classical music with this technique, or pretty much any kind of music.
I fell in love with the touch style technique many years ago, and eventually got into building specialty instruments. However, although specialty instruments make it easier (and usually provide low bass strings for a wider range), the technique can absolutely be done on a normal, 6-string guitar. (It does have to be electric, and it becomes easier when positioned upright, and with the action set very low.)
I have a few videos about tapping on YouTube, and one of them is how to make yourself a modified strap to hold an electric guitar upright, which makes two-handed tapping easier to do. Hopefully, as time permits, I'll be able to make more videos showing this two-handed touchstyle technique as applied to your existing guitar.
Approached correctly, it's actually pretty easy to do, and lots of fun.
-- Traktor Topaz
Edited by Traktor Topaz (04/22/08 10:23 AM)
Edit Reason: Left off signature
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#1930696 - 04/22/08 10:28 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Fingerstyle_Jim]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Figerstyle is one thing, classical quite another.
For my money, the top fingerstyle players are Michael Hedges, Lawrence Juber, Ed Gerhard.... but you cannot skip Chapedelaine, Anderson, Huttlinger, and a few dozen others.
If you want to learn classical, I can't help. But both Lawrence Juber and Ed Gerhard have instructional materials, DVDs, etc.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1930699 - 04/22/08 10:49 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: soggybomb]
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MILLO
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I'd stay away from those unless you specifically want to use midi synths, fingerstyle.
The Godin is a good instrument (I've used it A LOT, from two friends) and I'm sure the Carvin is as well, but they're a far cry from what a regular-size classical (even a cheap one) can give you, tone-wise.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake." --from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche My MySpace Space
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#1930883 - 04/22/08 06:21 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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fantasticsound
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Figerstyle is one thing, classical quite another.
For my money, the top fingerstyle players are Michael Hedges, Lawrence Juber, Ed Gerhard.... but you cannot skip Chapedelaine, Anderson, Huttlinger, and a few dozen others...
Bill
You can't call that a list of top fingerstyle players without including the aforementioned Doyle Dykes and Tommy Emmanuel, both of whom are in a another league up from Michael Hedges. I love Michael's playing but he wasn't really that accomplished compared to others on the list. He was wise enough to bend the instrument to his will by using odd tunings to simplify playing his compositions. He said it himself on more than one occasion. He did have an amazing touch for the percussive techniques he brought to the masses (among them, Kaki King) but he was light years behind Doyle and Tommy in technique and both are easily his equal in feel and style.
Omitting Chet Atkins must have been an oversight.  Without Chet there might never have been a Doyle, Tommy, Pete (Huttlinger), Juber, etc.
And to say that classical playing is so much more difficult than fingerstyle just isn't true. Being serious does not make playing classical any more difficult than playing a Tommy Emmanuel arrangement. I'm quite sure there are Doyle Dykes compositions that would be just as challenging to a classical master as anything in the classical repertoire.
You can argue the point if you wish. I won't respond. I've learned that trying to argue my position is futile against the dogma that classical music is somehow more legitimate or difficult to play.
Enjoy!
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#1931576 - 04/24/08 05:33 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: fantasticsound]
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Eric Iverson
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The question of which kind of music is the most difficult is not as simple as it sounds. Some classical pieces are much more demanding technically than others, and some styles of jazz and fingerstyle also! And a person might be able to play great classical and not be able to improvise on even simple tunes, whereas another might be a great improviser and not be very good at classical. Few people are able to excel at everything, though some are quite versatile.
I read recently that some of your great Indian musicians, who are fantastic improvisers in a modal style, are totally lost when confronted with music that modulates... it's simply not part of their training and experience!
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#1931601 - 04/24/08 06:16 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: fantasticsound]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Figerstyle is one thing, classical quite another.
Bill ...Dykes and Tommy Emmanuel, ...Chet Atkins... And to say that classical playing is so much more difficult than fingerstyle just isn't true.
Yeah, the list of great players is long. Even guys like Dave Edmunds, though I found his enthusiasm for fingerstyle to exceed his abilties at this point, I'm happy to see him growing.
I'm not making any comparision about "hard" or "legitimate". I work with classical musicians regularly, and the approach and dicipline and rules and such that govern the life and playing style of a classical musican are far different than those that 'us other players' follow. It is a far different world, and not one for me as a player, though I enjoy listening and recording.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1931978 - 04/24/08 06:00 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Fingerstyle_Jim
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To add to the "how difficult is it" part of this, I am a classically trained guitarist that has always looked at music outside of the classical genre(including playing in rock bands). I have worked on learning music by Bach, Beethoven and flamenco masters and I have also worked on music by blues artists Robert Johnson, Blind Blake, etc., and I can say without hesitation that all of the above have a very high level of difficulty of close to equal value. In particular, some of Blind Blakes work rivals anything I have worked on for high level of difficulty. On top of that there is a new breed of fingerstyle player out there that has surfaced in recent years, Don Ross is one, that uses alternate tunings and percussive techniques in a solo guitar context that take it to another level. But having said that, one can gain some satisfaction from learning to play a simple Guiliani study from the grade one Royal Conservatory of Music book and decide where they want to go from there.
Jim
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#1932021 - 04/24/08 08:21 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Fingerstyle_Jim]
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Gifthorse
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You can take any technique to a higher level so really you can't argue what the hardest things are to do.
I personally think nobody can do it all, but from a technical standpoint classical guitar pieces are a chore to play. I am not into classical guitar much for my listening pleasure.
I prefer classical piano cuz there are more things going on. But I think classical guys have the biggest technique chore ahead of them--cuz they have to be perfect playing someone else'es music. Also they are perfect usually. Pretty amazing technique. I wouldn't compare fingerstyle guys to classical guys cuz they are in different arenas. Like comparing sports.
Doyle Dykes is incredible, so is Tommy Emmanuel but could they play as well as Christopher Parkening on classical? Probably not. But I doubt Chris Parkening could smoke one of them on steel string.
I like Leo Kottke, he has some cool songs but he has a nice percussive feel I like and has been an innovator with open tunings before some other guys.
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#1932122 - 04/25/08 05:24 AM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Gifthorse]
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Eric Iverson
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Then there's the question: can you come up with a simple but MEMORABLE solo or arrangement idea? There are people out there who can run scales at high speed but can't do the former!
What's hard is determined in part by the nature of the person's gifts, and there are many ways of being talented - not just in music!
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#1933190 - 04/27/08 01:32 PM
Re: Calling classical and/or other fingerstyle guitarists
[Re: Eric Iverson]
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Virtual Jim
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I bought the book/dvd Pumping Nylon yesterday. So far it look pretty good. Thanks guys.
I played a few nylons at the same time, and I think I like one. Like the kid that gets an ant farm before a puppy, we'll see if I'm still interested in this a little down the road before I plop down the cash.
Oh, and as for Crossroads, I only mean being able to transfer technique(s) from classical guitars to electric guitars. Not so much being able to play ultra-80s-neo-classical-infatuated-with-violin-solos type music.
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