#1928569 - 04/17/08 01:56 PM
Live Vs. Layering
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CMDN
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OK, just looking for a few opinions...
I'm recording a rock band in a rehearsal space. It's got a good ceiling hight--maybe 13 feet--but the floor space isn't huge. It's maybe 20x20?
Two guitars, bass, vocals, drums.
Isolation of the amps will be difficult--there's just not a lot of space for such things when everyone is in the room at once.
Consequently, my idea is to track the band with the bass and guitars direct (via Pods and DI) as scratch tracks and get "keeper takes" on the drums as everyone plays down the songs together. The next move would be to re-track the guitars (and possibly the bass) with miked amps and overdub the vocals.
The band doesn't like this idea much--they consider such recordings sterile and time-consuming and want the vibe of the whole band playing together. They want to try playing at a lower volume on the amps with the rigs facing away from the drums in order to capture everything live and then overdub the vocals.
I'm guessing we can close-mic the drums, which I'm thinking will kill any chance of using condensor overheads to get the "drums in the room" tone, so I'll most likely have to invent a room with reverb in the mix.
My concern with this is getting a clean drum sound in such an environment and maintaining the ability to fix possible mistakes on the other tracks due to the close proximity of the amps and bleed. I also have the feeling that recording with the amps facing into the corners or into the walls will have about the same effect as recording via Pods in that the players aren't going to be getting the kinds of tones they generally prefer, and they'll end up wanting to re-track for the "right" tones, anyway, which kind of eliminates the whole "we're trying to capture the live vibe" thing in the end.
So... am I crazy for thinking my idea might actually be less time-consuming in the end?
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Erik
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#1928575 - 04/17/08 02:15 PM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: CMDN]
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miroslav
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You will not get much isolation of the drums...though you can get a bit of it using gobos and such.
Heck...if they want a live sound...just throw up the mics and go for it. Close mic as much as you can...and then work with what you have.
Can you stick the guitars amps in another room, and have everyone use cans? That way it will still go down at the same time, but with isolation?
Another option is to build some thick tents over the guitar rigs using heavy blankets and quilts...draped over the backs of chairs (or whatever) with the amp inside along with the mics.
You will still get some sound into the room...but it will not be overwhelming.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1928632 - 04/17/08 05:31 PM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: miroslav]
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CMDN
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Well, all we have is the one room, so there's no chance of putting the amps in another space, but I sure do wish we could do that--we'd be all set!
The idea of making tents over the guitar amps sounds like a good strategy. We'll get a better shot at keeping the drums sounding clean.
Thanks for the ideas. I'll let you know what I get.
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Erik
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#1929040 - 04/18/08 12:23 PM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: CMDN]
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DdubBdrum
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Loc: Seattle, WA
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I really enjoy tracking my band live. You get the vibe of what its really like to hear it live, however it does present some challenges. Like you, I'm in a room that's not huge, about 24'x15'x8', and we don't have access to another room for isolating cabs.
I wouldn't worry so much about isolating the instruments from each other, but isolate the mics from the different sound sources. If you have a cardioid 57 on a guitar cab, just use the polar pattern to reject the drums, bass, etc. as well as possible. There will of course be bleed, but that's part of the live vibe right?
You're right about the fixing mistakes part, though. It's always easier when the band gets a fairly clean take as a group. With our set up, though, there's usually enough isolation to overdub solos or bass parts as necessary.
Good luck!
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#1929250 - 04/18/08 11:08 PM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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audiofreek
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I think your intial strategy is a good one,it is fear of the unknown that is causing the band to baulk.Re-tracking guitars is usually inevitable,and layering guitars is standard practice.I would record a DI from the original track, and re-amp using the guitar players rigs for mix, or whatever you wish. Bleed can be cool, but you can't go back in time and take it out.If the guitars bleed too much into the drums, editing the drum tracks can become impossible.Try a take both ways and let the band hear the difference and decide for themselves,let us know what happens if you can,and let them know their options.
You can always leave the kit mics open when you re-amp, and that will give you the live sounding ambience,and phase of a live band at once.
If the room is really 20x20 and acoustically un-optomized it's room modes are not in your favour,and you will be stuck with that ambience on everything,and the drum bleed into the guitars will have gobs of it,and the guitar bleed into the drums will have it in spades.
I personally like the sound of the drum bleed into 57s on my guitar cabs, but that bleed is mild and coming through a glass door,and about 40 dB below the source.Your bleed may be only slightly below the source level.It's an unkown.
Edited by audiofreek (04/18/08 11:29 PM)
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#1929672 - 04/20/08 10:10 AM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: audiofreek]
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CMDN
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OK, gang, here's what happened...
We tracked live.
The room itself is a fairly dead space, with the usual carpet tiles on the walls... that was something a previous band did to the room, and these guys saw no reason to change it. This makes the room kind of flat-sounding to my ears, although I am sure someone with better ears might have a different opinion.
First off, we miked up the drums with a pair of overhead condensors and a close mic on each drum. We then surrounded the shells with gobos. We tweaked in a drum sound we liked through trial and error (move the mics, record a little playing, listen back, adjust, rinse, repeat).
Next, we moved the amps so that the speakers faced the walls away from the drum set. Naturally, we faced the controls of the heads into the room so that we could adjust the tones. We then miked the cabs in the little space between the speakers and the wall. Then, using Miro's advice, we covered the cabs with blankets to minimize bleed to the drums.
We then worked on getting guitar and bass tones. Obviously, we couldn't run the amps at regular rehearsal/show volumes, so it was a little weird to hear the rigs this way.
Then we got a headphone mix, since the amps were significantly quieter in the room than usual. The tones were good--everyone was pretty happy.
I had the band play down a song while I recorded it, just to check the bleed. After this was done, I went through the individual tracks. Here's what I found:
Bass: Nice, clear signal.. some drum bleed.
Guitars: Nice clean signal, minimal drum bleed.
Drums: Great sounds... no bleed from the other instruments at all.
I was impressed... somehow we pulled it off.
Since there was no bleed into the drums, we decided to play with the levels on the other instruments until we had the highest possible levels (in order to better replicate a "live" vibe.)
It took a little extra time to do this, but, in the end, we actually got the guitar amps to a level where we could achieve feedback without bleeding into the drums, and we actually got a nice growl out of the tube bass amp, too.
It took about three hours to get this set-up happening, and band finally got to put down a take. The band was well-rehearsed and got a take of the song in one or two runs. The results made the whole band pretty happy--very real, live vibe and tones, every track a "keeper," so there was no need to re-take any of the instruments... although I was confident I could have re-taken any of the instruments without bleed worried. I've heard similar amounts of bleed come through headphone mixes into drum mics.
With the guitar and bass levels a little higher, the close mics, combined with the blankets on those amps really canceled out the drum bleed, and I think the gobos around the drums did a decent enough job of keeping the other instruments out of the instrument mics.
It's a very delicate balance, especially in this room, but the results were worth it. Thanks for all the advice. Once I get a real mix, I'll see if I can throw it online so you guys can hear the results.
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Erik
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#1929717 - 04/20/08 01:00 PM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: CMDN]
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miroslav
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Yes...sometimes when you first set up the instruments using gobos...and really covering up guitar cabs...
...it sounds a bit weird in the room, but you then work up the mix in the cans to compensate.
After a short while, everyone’s ears adjust to the can mix...and you can then find the vibe you need.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1930002 - 04/21/08 07:07 AM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: miroslav]
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CMDN
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You said it, man!
I still can't believe how clean the drums are--basically no bleed at all.
I'm gonna do some more tracking tonight.
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Erik
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#1930561 - 04/22/08 06:25 AM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: CMDN]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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I like a bit more ambiance than this technique allows, though I am a BIG fan of everyone playing live in the same room, and I don't even care about the bleed... that just eliminates the possibility of punch-ins or overdubs if someone really smells the joint up. So everyone has to play the song, or part of the song, again.
But consider this... remote the speaker cabinets. Put them in hallways and bathrooms, and run the headset mix, with live drums in a live room. Drums get big, guitars and such can have a little air, and the sound is better. Used to read all the time in the 70s about major studios sticking Marshall cabs in halls and closets and empty rooms and guess what? It works.
Bill
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#1930571 - 04/22/08 06:38 AM
Re: Live Vs. Layering
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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CMDN
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Hey Bill...
I totally agree with you... I would LOVE to put the cabs in another place and mic them remotely. That'd make my life a lot easier. But we literally have just one room--the hallways and bathrooms are public, so we can't use them, and the other rooms in the complex belong to other bands, so there's simply nowhere to put the cabs but in the room with the drums. We don't even have closets, so that's not an option, either.
This is why I initally wanted to try and track the guitar and bass direct through Pods and re-cut them later with amp tones, but I was out-voted.
It seems like a non-issue now, though, since we have been getting some pretty nice recordings this way... it's just that getting levels set properly has taken a little extra time. The results have made us all pretty happy, though.
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Erik
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