#1920374 - 04/01/08 11:54 PM
Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
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suraci
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This Post has been "brewing within me" for some time now.
I invite all professional players who deal with all issues of playing bass lines with left hand and all the rest of it with the other hand to enter the discussion!
Critical sounds being:
B3, Rhodes, Acoustic piano, pads, strings, and at least 2 kinds of basses acoustic and electric.
Everything from tips on independence
to weighted versus synth action
to whether you like sliders or pedals for blending on the fly.
to the special amp set up that really does it , or sucks.
etc
My initial reason for post is I have a Kurz PC88 that is dying
the Organ sucks on it, passable Rhodes, but Motif is better, \
I need another keyboard soon!!!
Finding ONE keyboard that does it all surpassingly, is a challenge for me. I've
been mulling it over for years with no clear solution.
Speed of set up is a factor
Size ( I am open to a 61 again!! ) , weight.
Cost is an issue for many of us as well.
"Our" needs are unique, so here's your opportunity to voice your ideas, frustrations, wish list etc.
Any takers to start this thing off?
Nord stage has the best blending of B3 with another piano
Motif, best Rhodes
Kurz one of the best Ac pianos
Roland best basses in my experience
Thanks
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#1920381 - 04/02/08 12:30 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Analogaddict
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For me, the key is in the amplification and dynamic control. A good sounding bass patch becomes a great sounding patch when played through a bass amp. Also, having separate amps for your sounds helps, having a separate bass amp really defines the sound. EBS amps are my favorites for key bass due to their wide frequency response, great sub frequency handling and general un-coloured sound.
I've done a couple of gigs playing the Scarbee Black Bass and if you want a natural electric bass sound, it really delivers. The Kontakt scripting is absolutely brilliant, and with a little practise (and a sustain pedal!) you can easily do bass player trademarks like glissandos and legato phrasings. I have a macbook with 4 GB Ram, and Black Bass is no problem at all @ 2.8 GB.
When it comes to acoustic bass sounds, I havent found anything I dig. I usually reach for my Moog LP and tweak something there.
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#1920384 - 04/02/08 01:51 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Analogaddict]
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Dave Horne
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If you replace a bass player with your left hand, do you receive his salary as well?
Is this the kind of issue you were referring to?
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#1920387 - 04/02/08 02:02 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Dave Horne]
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suraci
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I AM a bass player!
Do you play left hand bass?
Do you think B3 players ought to hire a bass player to make it fair?
----------------------------
Analogaddict thanks, it's late here. I'll get back
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#1920392 - 04/02/08 02:18 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Aidan
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If you want to play LH bass in splits, you're realistically not going to be happy with a 61-key board. A 76er rompler, like an Motif XS7, is probably your best bet, from what I've gathered of your needs. The Motif has pretty good Hammond sounds, very good EPs and a decent range of bass guitar patches beside all the usual stuff.
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#1920398 - 04/02/08 02:39 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Dave Horne
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I AM a bass player!
Do you play left hand bass?
Do you think B3 players ought to hire a bass player to make it fair?
----------------------------
Analogaddict thanks, it's late here. I'll get back
I AM a piano player!
For me the issue is replacing live bass players by mimicking their sound.
Are you a solo keyboard player who occasionally plays left hand bass to keep the sound interesting or are you replacing a full time bass player and want tips on how to better replace him?
And while everyone is aware of my views on this, I feel it necessary to bring it up ... time and time again.
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#1920460 - 04/02/08 06:06 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Dave Horne]
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Mr. Nightime
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I agree with AnalogAddict in that there should, when possible, be a dedicated bass amp for the left hand bass.
I played in a country band for a while where the bass player doubled on fiddle, mandolin, and guitar. When he'd pick up one of these instruments, I'd have to pick up the bass. This was back in the late 70s early 80s, so having a rompler that I could split was not a possible solution.
I used a Rhodes Piano Bass. The bass player's rig consisted of an Alembic preamp, a Shure active crossover, a Yamaha P2201 power amp, a Crown DC-300A, a pair of JBL 1-15 bass cabs, and a pair of Thiel designed 1-12 loaded with JBL. (I was running a Yamaha CP-70B, Hammond 49-note solid state through a Leslie, Hohner D6 Clavinet, Rhodes Piano Bass, Tapco board, Crown D150 Power amp, EV S15-3 3 way cabinet.)
In order to make the transitions between his bass and my bass smooth, I ran the Rhodes through a channel in his amp. He played an Alembic bass, and he would set the tone to match the Rhodes tone. No one could tell where the transition was.
Now, any time I need to play a gig with bass, I'll use my normal 3rd board set to my left hand in an L, and run through a seperate amp.
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#1920514 - 04/02/08 07:02 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Joe P
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Suraci,
There was a comprehensive thread about this subject several months ago. I couldn't get the Search function to cooperate today, or I would have posted the link. Maybe you will have better luck. It addressed most things about LH bass, techniques, amplification, boards, etc.
Regards,
Joe
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#1920630 - 04/02/08 09:57 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Mr. Nightime]
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The Real MC
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I agree with AnalogAddict in that there should, when possible, be a dedicated bass amp for the left hand bass.
Or at minimum, a biamped system capable of supporting bass and keys.
In order to make the transitions between his bass and my bass smooth, I ran the Rhodes through a channel in his amp. He played an Alembic bass, and he would set the tone to match the Rhodes tone. No one could tell where the transition was.
Heh... When I was playing LH bass in the R&B/funk band, there was this discriminating bass player - whom I had mucho respect for - who heard us play a few gigs. He liked the bass player but couldn't find him. There was the occasional song I would strap on a bass guitar and he caught that, and it took him a few gigs to realize the bass was coming from my left hand.
It's cool when you fool discriminating bass players like that 
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#1920670 - 04/02/08 10:43 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: ProfD]
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suraci
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I appreciate the ideas-
separate bass amp, eh?
Be back later, I have to put another bass player out of work! ( Kidding, I am not working today )
After some research, I'm back.
I obviously disagree with Mr Horne. I am not putting a bass player out of work any more than
a "keyboard" player ( many of you ) is putting a
Hammond player. or a series of string players out of work.
Or a drum machine puts a drummer out of work.
Or those musicians who play along with RECORDED** tracks put most of us out of work.
It is a time consuming futile debate against forces that are bigger than any one of us.
I have always disliked the melding of "music" and "business", but that's life. I dislike it but I conform to reality.
**Here is my personal favorite : the RECORDING industry put most of us out of work!
Can you imagine our present music opportunities if we never recorded!
Far fetched I suppose, but if I might fantasize for a sec, I would opt for
no recordings as was put before the musicians of that time ( 1942-44) the President Petrillo of AFM, who was against recording! To be succinct,
President Petrillo stated: "When you make a recording, you're playing for your own funeral"
IDEALS versus Reality.
While I wholeheartedly agree with him, I am also a survivor, a realist. My sole living has been playing- almost no teaching. The problems are economic in nature- club owners, restaurants, hotels, are seeing less business, and so we see the gradual attrition of big bands to sextets to trio to duo etc. It is painful to witness. Right now I play in a duo to an essentially empty bar- I expect to be let go soon!! After forty plus years I may am finally more seriously thinking about non playing kind of work.
I have always played Organ, Piano, "keyboards" and basses.
In the beginning, I found only a small minority of pianists had my particular knack for playing bass lines. Why should my particular constellation of talents for rhythms, harmonies, improved lines and basslines not have its rightful place?
I have found that time annihilates many if not all our pet loves.
If you indict me Mr Horne , you have to indict Organists of the B3 variety as well.
Can anyone help me find the extensive post on Left Hand Bass?
Edited by suraci (04/02/08 11:34 AM)
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#1920692 - 04/02/08 11:21 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Bill H.
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Although I've done it off and on for years in clubs, my LH bass duties these days are confined to Wed. and Sun. in a volunteer praise and worship band.
I'm using my ES7 in Performance. I used to think that Motif Performances were pretty lame until I needed to set this bass split up, routed to it's own aux out, just before service awhile back (the bass player didn't show).
Yamaha performances may be stripped down with practically no features but it sure does make them fast and intuitive to set up. I did it with no manual in just a few minutes.
I've kept the bass on the ES7 instead of my other 76 board in the service, a Roland XP-80, not because of it's bass sound (I actually like the XP-80 a little better) but because on the Motif I can control bass volume with slider one only. On a Yamaha you can set up each part to be totally independent of the main volume slider. So no matter where I have the right side of the board set the left stays the same. Or I can cut or boost the bass without affecting anything else.
Bass goes into it's own amp. A Hartke 4000 head and a 15.
For 4-5 hour club jobs I like using a separate keyboard for LH bass, positioning it at a slight angle. This one is only 20 minutes or so so I don't get arm fatigue.
Left hand bass - right hand keyboard playing is kind of like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time. It's hard to do at first but once you get it down it's second nature.
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#1920703 - 04/02/08 11:40 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Bill H.]
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suraci
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Why, Bill, do you like a separate keyboard for bass??
Thanks for your offering
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#1920712 - 04/02/08 11:52 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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Bill H.
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It gives you your other keyboard back, and also lets you position the bass board for minimal arm fatigue. Your right hand is constantly moving back and forth, and with two boards up and down. But if you are playing LH bass your left hand is held in the same place, over the same 2 octaves or so, all night.
I like angling it slightly so my wrist is straight.
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#1920719 - 04/02/08 12:08 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Bill H.]
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Dave Horne
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If you indict me Mr Horne , you have to indict Organists of the B3 variety as well.
I also played B3 and pedal \ left hand bass. I looked at that (at that time) as simply being part of the instrument - the bass, I mean. I typically played pedal bass.
I have a problem with guys splitting the keyboard and using a bass sound with the express intention of replacing a live bass player.
While I am aware of the difference between ideals and reality, I feel someone has to speak out for those ideals. I could easily play more jobs (and make more money) if I were to sequence tunes and become a one man band. I won't betray my own principles.
Also, there's really something nice about playing with a first rate bass player. I've only worked with a few but it's still a nice feeling. I'm working a job next week, a duo, electric piano and bass. I'm looking forward to it. I could have booked the job as a single but this will be more fun ... and sound better.
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#1920728 - 04/02/08 12:25 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Dave Horne]
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suraci
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I hope you have fun next week
I also hope you can wrap your mind around the possibility that my conscience is wholly clear about playing bass and piano simultaneously.
Great stride pianists did this in their time.
I am about equally a bass player and a piano player.
I get a groove that i prefer in many cases OVER most, not all, bass players.
I also have harmonic options that are self evident.
As i said , these issues are epic; much bigger than you or I.
If all synths crashed and burned, along with all recordings, I would be one happy and BUSY musician- the way I used to be in the mid sixties!!!!
I believe it was Sting who used the word "infrastructure", stating the infrastructure was no longer present to support the musician.
Sad stuff.
Thanks
edit: Let me say this, I despise greedy business ppl who have nearly ruined ( give it time ) the music business I love. I not only witnessed the recording industries damage to us, but also radio jocks who under the guise of entertainment, actually DICTATED the tastes of the public they claimed to serve. I despise most of this ugly end of the music business.
Business ppl dictating to artists how its going to be- I saw it first hand.
Edited by suraci (04/02/08 12:30 PM)
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#1920732 - 04/02/08 12:29 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Bill H.]
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Mr. Nightime
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I'm of the seperate board for bass school as well. I used to use a split, but I found myself handcuffed by the split point. If my bass line went above the split, or the right hand went below, it was very noticable. By having one dedicated to bass, I don't have that limitation.
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#1920737 - 04/02/08 12:34 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Mr. Nightime]
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suraci
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Thank you Mr N & Bill H,
but there is a musical advantage to one keyboard.
My left thumb plays a tenth ( or other interval at times ) above the root.
The left thumb is playing ABOVE the split, it plays a keyboard sound.
I find this rich interval ( usually a tenth ) very vital to my sound.
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#1920794 - 04/02/08 01:36 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Analogaddict]
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suraci
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The split point is critical.
And which octaves you choose for bass and right hand.
I can't immediately tell you what octave and spl point I use, but I was thinking
of duplicated Performances ( Performance #1 and Performance #2 ) with the split point being the only alteration and or octave/range.
I suggest experimenting with these two aspects. Split point and the octave you choose for Right and Left Hand.
I think my right side of split sounds is 128 Hz ( one oct below middle C ) and above
Left hand is 128 on down to whatever- 41, or 32 Hz Lowest C on piano .
When Bass and Piano both play the lower C (128 Hz ) it is not that disturbing, depending on the eq of bass.
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#1920836 - 04/02/08 02:25 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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New&Improv
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Well, I've been primarily a bass player for the last few decades, but in my new band I play key bass, so I guess I'm replacing myself.
This band was originally envisioned as a sax/keys/drums organ trio, so I originally used 2 nonweighted controllers driving a laptop running NI B4. I still mainly use a B4 pedal/lower manual combo layer for bass, I like the way the Hammond sound drives the low end. I use an 88key unweighted MAudio controller as the lower keyboard, and a 61 key controller on top. Ocasionally, I'll split the lower keyboard into Rhodes upper and Hammond bass lower, but mostly I have it all Hammond, in the upper ranges it works nicely as a hammond comping sound. I like having more range for the bass than a 61 key controller would provide, having those "Below C-Level" notes makes for nice emphasis.
For amplification, I don't run a separate amp, but I do run the output of both keyboards from the laptop to seperate channels on my mixer, so I can boost the bass when needed. Mostly, I mix everything around the bass. I think as a bass player (and recording dude), I have a pretty good idea about how the low end drives the band.
I don't solo a lot in this band, we have a brilliant sax player and a rapper now, so mostly I serve to accompany them. It's a very improvisational band, and I really like how quickly this band can change directions, since the drummer and I are the whole rhythm section, either one of us can suggest a new feel and we can go there quickly, something I find hard to do with 3-piece (or larger) rhythm sections.
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#1921027 - 04/02/08 09:24 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Mr. Nightime]
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jimmymio
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I'm of the seperate board for bass school as well. I used to use a split, but I found myself handcuffed by the split point. If my bass line went above the split, or the right hand went below, it was very noticable. By having one dedicated to bass, I don't have that limitation.
Slightly OT but i saw an Apple/Logic Mainstage demo recently and the split is intuitive and it can actually follow your hands if you cross above or below split points. I don't use Mainstage so i can't elaborate but i can say my jaw dropped at the demo.
JP
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#1921028 - 04/02/08 09:33 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: jimmymio]
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jimmymio
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I've earned at least half of my income over the past decade playing left-hand bass in a soul/funk band and believe me when i say I much prefer working with a bass player and I don't hesitate to request one if my input is solicited. However, when i'm hired to do a job I don't really feel that is my prerogative to dictate what other instruments are to be included.
It's all about making music and i think it is narrow minded to fret about what types of instruments are generating the sound waves. Tubas anyone?
JP
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#1921058 - 04/02/08 11:21 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: jimmymio]
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Analogaddict
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Slightly OT but i saw an Apple/Logic Mainstage demo recently and the split is intuitive and it can actually follow your hands if you cross above or below split points. I don't use Mainstage so i can't elaborate but i can say my jaw dropped at the demo.
JP
I have Mainstage, it's a very interesting idea and indeed jaw-dropping. I mean, you know where the split point is, but if you play a walking bass line... it's an octave higher! You have to set a limit for the floating split point, but if you use it a lot I'm sure it'll be second nature in no time.
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#1921100 - 04/03/08 05:12 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: jimmymio]
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Mr. Nightime
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I've earned at least half of my income over the past decade playing left-hand bass in a soul/funk band and believe me when i say I much prefer working with a bass player and I don't hesitate to request one if my input is solicited. However, when i'm hired to do a job I don't really feel that is my prerogative to dictate what other instruments are to be included.
It's all about making music and i think it is narrow minded to fret about what types of instruments are generating the sound waves. Tubas anyone?
JP
While I am very capable of playing a gig where I'm the bass player as well, and have done so on numerous occasions, I much prefer having a real bass player there. One more person to interact with. Plus, having to play multiple parts forces me to divide my attention. I'd rather be able to concentrate on just my part. I play better.
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#1921215 - 04/03/08 09:06 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: Mr. Nightime]
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kanker.
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For me it depends on the gig. Some gigs, there just isn't a bass player around with fast enough ears to be able to hang with the subs and rhythmic changes the drummer and I get into, and in those cases, I'd really rather not have to work with a bass player.
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#1921254 - 04/03/08 10:15 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: kanker.]
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keyguy
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I agree wih Kevin, it depends on the gig. One thing you can usually be sure of is that the keys and bass will be together. That being said, a good bass player makes me play better.
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#1921255 - 04/03/08 10:16 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: kanker.]
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suraci
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jimmymio
New&Improv
keyguy
kanker thanks for that
Edited by suraci (04/03/08 10:24 AM)
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#1921266 - 04/03/08 10:30 AM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: The Real MC]
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suraci
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"It's cool when you fool discriminating bass players like that :)"
So what amp keyboard(s) did you use to fool 'em?
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#1921542 - 04/03/08 07:18 PM
Re: Left Hand bass, keyboard players, let's talk our issues!
[Re: suraci]
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keyguy
Senior Member
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 164
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
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I use an Eden combo with 2 10's. CXC210, I think. Sounds great, light weight.
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