#1914651 - 03/23/08 05:30 AM
Recording Hardware
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Darcy H
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Happy Easter! I'm looking into some recording hardware and thought I'd hit you guys up for some input.
I want to keep it simple, mic my amp and record a guitar track, maybe add some drums, then somehow monitor that and lay down the vocals, being able to adjust the mix - how much I can hear the guitar and how much I can hear my voice. I'm not really looking to produce cd's or anything, more to concentrate on weak vocals without having to worry about playing, but also to help record ideas for stuff I'm writing, and perhaps be able to put out something for close friends.
My first try was a Sony mini-disc recorder, and mix everything on a computer, but that's overly complex and not very user friendly for what I wanted to do. I have a M-Audio Black Box with a USB interface but latency issues and complexity made it far more work than I want to put into it. I've tried recording directly with a mic and my laptop, but monitoring something and listening to my voice monitored doesn't work. I don't wish to spend too much either...
I've been looking at a Boss BR-600 or a Fostek MR-8mkII 8-Track Digital Recorder, but figure they may be overkill, and then there's the Boss MICRO BR Digital Recorder, and one that really caught my eye, the Zoom H4.
http://www.zoomh4.net/
But I wonder if it's a little gimmiky for my needs. I just want simple. Most of this stuff seems to run from $250 to $400.
Any input most appreciated. I can rent that Zoom H4 locally for a month to see if it works for me, but it's one of the pricier options if I end up liking it.
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#1914657 - 03/23/08 05:48 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Strategery
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Go with a Digidesign MBox through your computer.
It comes with the software as well, mine with ProTools.
Randy
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#1914661 - 03/23/08 06:01 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Darcy H
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I'll take a look, thanks!
I did have a USB thing (the M-Audio BlackBox), that allowed me to mix the monitor and whatever I was recording, but for some reason (latency?) the tracks never lined up properly and I wasted alot of time trying to get things lined up.
I kind of liked the stand-alone idea of the options I listed, and the H4 comes with Cubase LE. But I will definitely look into it, thanks!
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#1914669 - 03/23/08 06:21 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Dr. Ellwood
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I like the US 144 by Tascam, it was recommended to me by Bill@welcome.... it comes with CuBase LE and at the time came bundled with two condenser recording microphones. It does a good job using it with my laptop. http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASUS144
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#1914674 - 03/23/08 06:32 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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A String
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I like the US 144 by Tascam, it was recommended to me by Bill@welcome.... it comes with CuBase LE and at the time came bundled with two condenser recording microphones. It does a good job using it with my laptop. http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASUS144
Yup. The US144 comes highly recommended.
The great thing with recording now a days is, you can spend a much or as little as you want. You can head out to the dollar store and buy a 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor for a buck, plug your mic in and record using any one of the free programs out there (such as Audacity). Half decent results. Not professional, but heck, it cost you a buck!
Tell us how much you want to spend, and we can recommend the best "bang for your buck" so to speak.
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#1914684 - 03/23/08 06:40 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Justus A. Picker
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I'll take a look, thanks!
I did have a USB thing (the M-Audio BlackBox), that allowed me to mix the monitor and whatever I was recording, but for some reason (latency?) the tracks never lined up properly and I wasted alot of time trying to get things lined up.
The latency issue is probably due to the drivers. You want to use ASIO drivers for minimum latency.
The hardware options actually have a steeper learner curve than PC-based recording, mostly because you have to scroll through 18 zillion tiny little menus to find what you want!
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#1914686 - 03/23/08 06:45 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Justus A. Picker]
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Dr. Ellwood
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I don't know if Craig will agree or not but the songs we have collaborated on I don't think latency has been a issue at all! not even a little bit! we shoot files back and forth all the time with no issues and we convert back and forth from .wav to Mp3.
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#1914744 - 03/23/08 08:30 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Dr. Ellwood]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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The whole 'monitor through the computer' thing..... there are several things that you could be trying to do, so I'm not going to comment, other than to say that most software has latency compensation adjustments for when you are recording along with a prerecorded track, and you should not be trying to monitor what you are playing (it's just too long of a trip through all the various algorythms and pieces of hardware and OS layers) THROUGH the recording software.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1914776 - 03/23/08 09:20 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Scott Fraser
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The whole 'monitor through the computer' thing..... there are several things that you could be trying to do, so I'm not going to comment, other than to say that most software has latency compensation adjustments for when you are recording along with a prerecorded track, and you should not be trying to monitor what you are playing (it's just too long of a trip through all the various algorythms and pieces of hardware and OS layers) THROUGH the recording software.
Bill
In the overdub scenario, latency is dealt with with hardware DSP in the interface. MOTU interfaces come with a software app called CueMix which allows monitoring yourself live, i.e. not delayed through the computer, while hearing the prerecorded tracks in perfect sync. You just have to realize that you don't get to hear yourself through a ton of plugins without latency.
I personally feel an all-in-one dedicated recorder/mixer device is going to be easier to learn & use for anybody who is not a major computer geek.
Scott Fraser
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#1914811 - 03/23/08 10:53 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Fumblyfingers
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The nice thing about a software app is the ability to take your laptop on the road with you and work in your hotel room. Beats spending the extra cash for the adult channel! There are several USB mic's available now.....while they are not the best quality they will get the job done. Low Latency Monitoring in Tools is good enough to get the job done although it will disable some plug in's so perhaps you won't have the nicest sounding tracking mix.
Yeah.......laptop, recording app, soft guitar amp sim, a USB mic and some nice headphones and away you go.
You must have a really good laptop though!
MOTU has that portable rig that has always looked attractive to me.
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#1914815 - 03/23/08 11:10 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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MOTU interfaces come with a software app called CueMix which allows monitoring yourself live, i.e. not delayed through the computer, while hearing the prerecorded tracks in perfect sync. You just have to realize that you don't get to hear yourself through a ton of plugins without latency.
Scott Fraser
Well, that is the problem with new users, they just don't understand that. Which is why I said that I'd reserve comment. Could be any number of things going on. (RME offers zero latency with ToyalMix, same idea. In my world I prefer RME's implimentation, but I have not used CueMix in many years.)
"I personally feel an all-in-one dedicated recorder/mixer device is going to be easier to learn & use for anybody who is not a major computer geek. "
I think that since the advent of the little usb or firewire interfaces from the major players with lite versions of major software, that is no longer true. I also think that it is a lt easier to learn how to do what you and I are alreay familiar with, when you have a big video screen on which to access info rather than a three or four line LCD screeen. But computer answers aren't for eveyone. For many years I was very much against using a laptop for audio recording. But the technology has changed.
From a pure dollars and time invested standpoint, the computer based recording model offers more, sinvce the learned techniques do not change and portions of the investment can be saved if you choose to upgrade; while with the stand-alones, you have to abandon the whole thing and start from scratch. The investment in money is a total loss, and the investment in time spent learning the rig may be lost if you choose a different vendor for your upgrade.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1914877 - 03/23/08 01:48 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Darcy H
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All great feedback guys, I'm learning a ton! Thanks for taking the time.
A good friend is highly recommending the stand alone unit, he's got a HUGE one (lots and lots of tracks) and has recorded and released a few independent CD's for his students (he owns/runs a local music school) but he's completely computer illiterate as well. I must admit I found the computer based stuff confusing, even without any understanding of how to fix latency issues, and my laptop isn't anywhere near state-of-the-art.
That Zoom unit has some pretty good built in mics but I have a pretty high end condensor mic already, so I am looking harder at the Fostex (phantom power - 8 tracks).
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#1914909 - 03/23/08 02:55 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Strategery
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No latency on the Mbox or with ProTools.
You hit mute...and keep on going...Zero latency.
Question you guys...
How much better are these "HD" units I'm reading about?
Are they worth it?
Thanks,
Randy
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"What we have here is...failure to communicate."
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#1915062 - 03/23/08 09:28 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Fumblyfingers
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HD is state of the art..industry standard...whatever you want to call it.....I call it very expensive....you do not need it for what we do...it is way beyond that.
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#1915075 - 03/23/08 09:53 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Scott Fraser
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HD is state of the art..industry standard...whatever you want to call it.....I call it very expensive....you do not need it for what we do...it is way beyond that.
Figure on about $20,000 for an HD system which gives about the same flexibility as you get with about $2,500 of MOTU hardware.
Scott Fraser
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#1915085 - 03/23/08 10:20 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Fumblyfingers
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And again.....$499 for Logic Studio....which I do not know if it compares to MOTU but it has so many cool features. I am seriously wondering if I am going to jump to Logic......I just do not like the look of the interface, too dark and Gothic almost......that is what is stopping me....LOL!!!
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#1915086 - 03/23/08 10:21 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Fumblyfingers
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Darcy is this going to travel with you or stay at home?
I am not getting a good vibe from the reviews of the MR8-MkII...it is only 16 Bit, the way it formats the CF card you are limited to 2 Gb regardless of the size card...no mp3 format only .Wav...it seems not the best way to go.
What is the budget if you do not mind me asking?
My friend has done some homegrown CD's on a Yamaha all in one that sounded very good...they are around $1000-$1200 I think.
I think he has this one maybe...the CD burning is built in, it has a bunch of effects,24 Bit etc etc.
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-Y...tm_medium=feed&
I still think you are better served with a computer app such as Pro Tools, Cubase, Cakewalk, Sonar, etc etc. DP and Logic are Mac only.
Maybe one of the Cakewalk apps would be a good way to go for you, like Home Studio. You should ask our Rampdog.......I have sort of forgotten the pain of the Pro Tools learning curve......well the basic stuff.......but young Ramp has just really only got started a few months ago and he is wailing on his setup, writing some nice stuff and the mix sounds very nice also.....he could tell you about his experience with the learning curve on Home Studio
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#1915125 - 03/24/08 03:51 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Fumblyfingers]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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And again.....$499 for Logic Studio....which I do not know if it compares to MOTU but it has so many cool features....
We're not really comparing the same things here.
First: Pro Tools made their bones on the Mac,with their dedicated and proprietary Mac-based system. Like so many other proprietary systems (SADiE on the PC, for example...) the use of the Mac hardware is minimal. The power of the system and it's serious capabilities are contained within it's proprietary nature.
In my opinion, anyone using a Mac-based version of Pro Tools with their dedicated proprietary hardware iS ACTUALLY using Pro Tools. Those not doing so are using something else... Pro Tools Junior, if you will..., that is comparable to most any other mid-level PC audio application in form and fuction. It sells as well as it does mostly because it says "Pro Tools" on it, and people outside of the pro studio environment seem to make no differentiation among the various products, mostly because they are either believing that they are getting the best audio app (good marketing on the part of Digidesign) or they are hoping to sucker customers not thinking that they will get full-blown Pro Tools in a budget studio at budget rates.
The low budget Pro Tools should be examined withn it's price/performance class like any other piece of audio software. As I have said so many times before, we each find the fit that we like, just as we do with guitars and amps.
The higher end verisons of audio software and hardware bring a lot to the table... I have a pretty darned high end rig, and I can tell you that I love every minute of it froma working and listening standpoint (I don't always like the projects so well....<g>) But we all have to live within a budget. I'm glad that I have what I have, but I would not likely buy it if I had not gotten in within the context that I did.
It is hard to beat Cakewalk products for functionality.
But Band IN A Box is seriously plenty for most of us.
Samplitude is very, very nice.
Vegas has a lot to recommend it.
SAW Basic is not real expensive, and is probably the best fixed-point product for the PC.
Most everything from PG Music is inexpensive, practical, and easy to use.
The list goes on...
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1915148 - 03/24/08 05:21 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Darcy H
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Thanks for that Fostex feedback, I'm starting to side with the Zoom, it has pretty much everything, runs around $300, which is the max I want to put into it now. I really want something stand-alone. Something I didn't realize is that it has amp models and lots of features so I can just use it to just jam. I do travel alot and take one of those little electric travel guitars with me, and that Black Box USB Amp Modeller. I doubt I'll be recording abroad but that Zoom can replace the Black Box for jamming in the hotel room, and it's about 1/4 the size.
The local shop will let me rent one for a week, with the option of putting that towards purchase, so I'll try that next week and see if it does what I need.
http://www.zoomh4.net/
Thanks again for all the great feeback!
One quick question on recording, you typically see a dynamic mic hanging right against the front of an amp, is this the best way to capture my amp's tone or would moving back with a condenser be better?
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#1915254 - 03/24/08 08:36 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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...If I'm an old dawg trying to learn NEW computer tricks, would you suggest me going to another recording program or stick with ProTools LE?
.... if there's a more intuitive ....
First, let us address the concept "INTUITIVE".
There is nothing in the computer experience that is even remotely intuitive to anything in the real world. But it was a totally brilliant marketing term employed by Apple with the introduction of the Mac, which somehow caught the public mindset and made the machine seem less threatening, and proved to be one of the smartest applications of a nonsense term ever promoted.
In terms of what software you like, here is the problem.... you'll never know if you've chosen the best one for you. When you start out, you don't know what you need or want; and after you have a little experience with one tool, all the others will be tainted by the paragim you have developed in working with the first one.
When I started out working in the computer there were not many choices and most weren't very good. The MIDI offerings were very keyboard-centric, leaving us guitarists scrathing our heads. (Well, forced me to buy a keyboard..>) I found that, as a tape guy, I understood audio softwares pretty well. So I gravitated to that type of application, and eventually found that SAW was my favorite app. After a while, the MIDI apps started adding audio support as best they could. Not long after that, the audio softwares started adding MIDI support to some degree or another. Pro Tools and SAWStudio are probably the last audio-only apps to add MIDI, so they have a lot less maturity than other choices. If MIDI looms strong in your plans, you might be better served to look at an app like Sonar.
But unless you have a problem with the version of Pro Tools that you're using, why switch? Is there an issue that you can describe? There is no doubt that a person will grasp certain ergonomic interfaces better than others, and the response is individual... there is no "Best", just a "best for me..".
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1915257 - 03/24/08 08:43 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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... you typically see a dynamic mic hanging right against the front of an amp, is this the best way to capture my amp's tone or would moving back with a condenser be better?
That is NOT typical.
First, point the mic at the speaker.
Now there are many ways to mic a cabinet, and many choices. Most work to one degree or another. The "typical" Shure SM-57, usually centered on the speaker cone and backed off the grille about 1 inch is a fine way to do it. Or you could use a pair of Royers. The options are wide open. You would be amazed at the many options. But this is a great place not to make rocket science out of a process.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1915260 - 03/24/08 08:49 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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miroslav
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In terms of what software you like, here is the problem.... you'll never know if you've chosen the best one for you. When you start out, you don't know what you need or want; and after you have a little experience with one tool, all the others will be tainted by the paragim you have developed in working with the first one.
And if I may…
One can take those thoughts and apply them to ALL audio equipment…not just software.
I know a lot of guys are on a tight budget, so they want to spend their hard earned cask on the right stuff, and not end up with gear they don’t like or that is crap.
But it’s not always that simple…not matter how many reviews you read or questions you ask…there is always a good chance that you will find some gear lacking AFA your SOP is concerned…or when you realize you need something better than what you thought would do the trick, after you’ve spent a little time with the gear you bought.
Unless you have some serious cash and can afford to buy ALL top-shelf items right from the start…chances are you will need to deal with a learning curve and a purchasing curve. It’s a process that most people have to follow.
You may be able to cut some corners thanks to the advice of others…but in the end, you WILL waste some time and money on gear that just doesn’t do it for you.
AFA intuitive audio software…well, some apps are better than others…but if you never worked with any audio software…there IS that learning curve.
But…the more different apps you work with, the more intuitive others become, right out of the box. 
I still have my “DUH” moments with software/hardware I’ve had for awhile now! 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1915287 - 03/24/08 09:38 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: miroslav]
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Fumblyfingers
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One definition for intuitive is readily learned and understood. I can apply that to Pro Tools.
I personally have never thought I have anything near a higher end Pro Tools system. I have the Pro Tools I can afford and the damn software is not that far off HD.
Strategery, I cannot tell you what to do man but you and I have the same software..Pro Tools LE. I have 7.3 installed....I purchased 7.4 but have not installed it yet.
The difference is our soundcard hardware.....you have the MBox and I have the 002Rack. You should be able to do anything I do...I rarely record more than two tracks at once....I import a lot as far as drum tracks and you can edit and work MIDI at will....this thing that Pro Tools does not do MIDI well is not accurate any more. Pro Tools MIDI is fine for you and I.
There are pro audio guys and there are musicians trying to make a little music and record it themselves because they cannot afford the expense to go into a big studio and perhaps many other reasons.
Most of us are not going to become highly skilled Pro Audio guys, engineers, mixers, mastering engineers......so who cares how great this app is or that app. Who cares who has the best system in the friggen world. For most of us being able to get a few tracks down is all we need....some of us will require more depth and some less.......it does not negate the experience.
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#1915347 - 03/24/08 11:19 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Darcy H]
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Scott Fraser
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One quick question on recording, you typically see a dynamic mic hanging right against the front of an amp, is this the best way to capture my amp's tone or would moving back with a condenser be better?
Both. I generally put a Sennheiser 421 up against the front & a C414 or U87 back in the room a ways. Best recent results were on a Nels Cline (of Wilco) session with the Sennheiser in front & a B & O ribbon on the back of the open back cab.
Having two mics gives you a bit of depth & three dimensionality.
Scott Fraser
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#1915724 - 03/24/08 08:56 PM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Scott Fraser]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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... MOTU interfaces come with a software app called CueMix ....
Scott Fraser
I think that it is interesting how the hardware guys are pushing each other. MOTU alwys had an (Mac only) audio app, but RME brought the idea of interface routing and zero latency monitoring to the fore, pushing MOTU to bettert their app, then RME added a recorder to the interface, and now MOTU has added effects to theirs.... they each have a fine line to tread, as how far can you go beofre you piss off the audio app manufacturers and they stop supporting your product... but at the same time, they are one-uping each other to our definite benefit.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1915901 - 03/25/08 08:30 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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I still have ProTools 6.1 I think it is. I haven't updated it yet. Will ProTools work well with a drum program then? Great info you guys, thanks! Randy
Randy,
You've put time and money into a popular program. If you have seen someone else work with something else and it makes more sense to you, then you should consider switching. If not, then maybe what it takes is to find someone using what you use, and hang out with them until the switch goes off in your head and you suddenly 'get it' (audio is like that...) The time that you have alreasy spent on the learning curve will need to be spent again if you change softwares, so this should also be factored into your considerations.
Most of the popular drum programs use MIDI to trigger samples. If your program supports MIDI, you should have no trouble with EZDrummer. I think we have strong evidence of that in another thread here, where a new user created a new piece from scratch in a couple of hours.
My own program of choice, Sequoia/Samplitude, has MIDI and IT'S OWN drum machine built in, but I can't get the lightbulb to go off in my own head, so I'm doing exactly the wrong thing... I'm throwing money at the problem by buying EZDrummer instead of working just a little harder at learning how to use what I already have. (sigh....)
And just a note of caution to those embarking on their own home recording setup: if you are smart, you'll buy good quality, buy once, and get on with the business of making music. If you are as stupid as I have been, you'll get caught up in audio and the next thing you'll know, you will have spent a lot more of your life making other people sound good than you had intended, and a lot less time making the music that drove you to this place than you wanted. ("Run.... run like the wind... run toward your guitars...run fast, run far, and don't look back....)
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1915953 - 03/25/08 09:54 AM
Re: Recording Hardware
[Re: Strategery]
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Fumblyfingers
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 3906
Loc: Los Angeles, California.
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Almost any of the DAW's will work with almost any of the drum software's these days.
Randy, Pro Tools 7 is a whole different deal to PT6. There was a version of 6 that was not that stable...I forget which, but 7 is a much better deal......as long as you have a goodly fast computer.
I have 7.3 now and it is stable. 7.4 has Elastic Audio which allows you to stretch tracks, change tempo's and they both have Beat Detective which PT6 did not have as far as I can recall. I have never needed it because I use grooves that have solid meter.
I would pay the upgrade to PT7 ....$99 or $49 I forget....but it is worth it. Randy do you have a lot of plug-ins?
When you do the upgrade to 7 you will get a nice EQ, a dynamics suite with a limiter, compressor and de-esser and a soft synth called Xpand and sampler called Structure....and of course the Bomb Factory free plugs.
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