#1899513 - 02/27/08 06:59 AM
Live sound question - stage acoustics
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dennisc
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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I have a less-than-perfect stage situation at church that I am trying to address. The problem - poor stage design(shallow stage), no stage area acoustic treament - rear wall of wood - all equals very loud stage volumes.
FYI: Right now, in-ears monitoring is not an option for a couple of reasons.
Band-aide #1 is an enclosed drum cage which we are putting in place this week. It has 3/4 of it covered in fiberglass type absorption. It is a ClearSonics cage. I think it will help.
My question regards a potential Band-aide #2. It involves two musicians, the bass player and the electric guitar player. These folks represent two of the remaining four monitor wedges on stage and they are the two closest monitors to the rear wall of wood. I would think that a free standing mini wall of DIY absorption (kind of like gobos) would go a long way to stopping those monitors from adding to the stage volume by keeping them from being reflected by the rear wall.
The question is, with the monitors on the floor facing the players and the DIY walls behind the players, how tall and wide do the mini walls need to be to be effective? OR is it a bad idea because the beam spread of the monitors is so wide that you could not "catch" the sound with a reasonably small mini wall/gobo?
Thanks,
Dennis
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#1899517 - 02/27/08 07:02 AM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: dennisc]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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So, why can't they wear wired headphones?
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1899699 - 02/27/08 09:44 AM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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Ethan Winer
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Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
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Dennis,
I think this is one of those things you'll need to experiment with.
--Ethan
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#1899771 - 02/27/08 11:20 AM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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dennisc
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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So, why can't they wear wired headphones?
Bill
Bill,
I am glad to have your input. You, along with Ethan, are among a group of folks I have interacted with on other forums with great value. thank you.
The reason we can't use headphones or IEMs has to do with the current skill level of the monitor mixing volunteers. It just isn't safe to have folks' ears vulnerable to the potential risks as well as the high-reliance on that mix being the only thing they hear.
Dennis
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#1899849 - 02/27/08 12:44 PM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: dennisc]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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The reason we can't use headphones or IEMs has to do with the current skill level of the monitor mixing volunteers. It just isn't safe to have folks' ears vulnerable to the potential risks as well as the high-reliance on that mix being the only thing they hear.
Dennis
Dennis,
I see.
It is very possible to make a set it and forget it monitor mix, so long as you know that the mixers are not going to touch the mix once it is set, and it is not hard to supply a volume control for the headsets. But you are correct, this could be dangerous in the wrong hands.
" ...the bass player and the electric guitar player...represent two of the remaining four monitor wedges on stage and they are the two closest monitors to the rear wall of wood. I would think that a free standing mini wall of DIY absorption (kind of like gobos) would go a long way to stopping those monitors from adding to the stage volume by keeping them from being reflected by the rear wall.
The question is, with the monitors on the floor facing the players and the DIY walls behind the players, how tall and wide do the mini walls need to be to be effective? "
More and more I am into DI solutions for these types of shows. If you've isolated the drummer, and move the other instruments to DI situations, you have total control.
What is always going to affect your plan is their current stage volume, and how loud their monitors need to be to overcome this. Personally, I could place sidewash monitors or overhead monitors and satisfy most people... but some guys will never be happy with anything other than a cabinet blaring at their feet.
Possibly the cheapest personal on stage monitor mixing setup is that from Hear. But, depending upon the number of channels in the mix, it may be possible to set up a second mixing console (like a Behringer) on stage, simply use wye cables to split the mics to this and FOH, and let each guy on stage mix his own, to his own haedphones. I know that you said that you want an acoustical solution, but this idea is worth considering, when you only need cheap open air phones and a cheap mixer. Just a thought.
The problem with those rear firing monitors you described is that they have to be loud enough to overcome the stage volume of the amps for the bass and guitar, and are pretty much going to leak into all the other mics on stage, making mud of everything. We've HAD to work around this problem for many years because of the technology of wedge monitor mixes and amps on stage. But if you mix a show without the bleed, you'll never want to go back.
If you have a really tight band that plays as an ensemble and plays together at low levels, then a couple of sidefills will suffice for everyone. If your band is the more typical offering that I see today, you might want a different option.
If you do build mini walls, they will perform best if set some distance from the existing wall, and all of the other performance characteristics of frequency control that are talked about here come into play... each one that you adopt will make the walls a little more expensive, a little larger or thicker, and a little more trouble to build. In the end you may never get the low frequency control that you seek, likely as much a problem from the bass amp as from the monitors, and the characteristics of low frequency signals, with huge wavelengths that just wrap around everything and keep on coming.
Sharing more specifics to your situation with the forum are in order, and you are likely in for a LOT of reading and head scratching.
Good luck!
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1899872 - 02/27/08 01:11 PM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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dennisc
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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Bill,
Thanks for the detailed input. I did not mention this but the bass is DI.
The electric is not but we have tried to minimize the bleed from th electric by using a closed back cabinet with the back facing the rest of the stage (the e. guitarist is in the back left corner) so that the sound from the cab is coming at the player just like the wedge sitting next to the cab (the wedge having the rest of the desired mix. This gives the e. gtr player some control over the "mix" as he has his own cabinet with his stuff and the wedge with everything else. Both of these face diagonally away from the stage toward the back corner.
That's why I thought of the mini walls behind the e. gtr player so as to catch much of the monitor/cab sound before it is reflected off the back corner walls.
There is a dedicated monitor mixing board side stage with a splitter sending the stuff to monitor and FOH. It's just, for now, we don't have enough skilled mixers to trust in ears. Perhaps if we had some protection mechanisms, then we could take a leap into those in ears.....I would like to use the Aviom because there does seem to be a need for changes from song to song.
Any more thoughts?
Dennis
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#1900202 - 02/28/08 03:21 AM
Re: Live sound question - stage acoustics
[Re: dennisc]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7419
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Bill,
Thanks for the detailed input. I did not mention this but the bass is DI.
The electric is not but we have tried to minimize the bleed from th electric by using a closed back cabinet with the back facing the rest of the stage (the e. guitarist is in the back left corner) so that the sound from the cab is coming at the player just like the wedge sitting next to the cab (the wedge having the rest of the desired mix. This gives the e. gtr player some control over the "mix" as he has his own cabinet with his stuff and the wedge with everything else. Both of these face diagonally away from the stage toward the back corner.
That's why I thought of the mini walls behind the e. gtr player so as to catch much of the monitor/cab sound before it is reflected off the back corner walls.
There is a dedicated monitor mixing board side stage with a splitter sending the stuff to monitor and FOH. It's just, for now, we don't have enough skilled mixers to trust in ears. Perhaps if we had some protection mechanisms, then we could take a leap into those in ears.....I would like to use the Aviom because there does seem to be a need for changes from song to song.
Any more thoughts?
Dennis
It looks to me as if you have thought this out and come up with reasonable solutions. With a seperate monitor mix on each side of the stage, why can't each player mix his own, and wear headphones? (not trying to beat a dead horse here... too much...) Put the guitarist on a POD or RP200 or somesuch, and the job is done.
Bouncing the sound from the back corner floor and walls just puts a couple of out of time reflections into the room and changes the tone. Panels mounted diagonally across that corner can mitigate the effect. I would suspect, the larger, the better.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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