#1897763 - 02/25/08 05:26 AM
Live drum micing quandry.
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9354
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
Offline
|
|
So my drummer was looking to "upgrade" his drum mics (he's got some ancient "kit" he paid $300 for back in '99 that sucks on ice)
Problem is, he didn't seem to learn anything about "kits" last time through, and now he's hell bent on repeating the mistake.
After some extensive discussion, I convinced him that the smart money for him (since he's dirt poor and can't afford to drop a grand on mics right now) is to replace one or two at a time, rather than spend $200 on yet another crappy 7-pack of microphone.
Now I got another problem: He was more than happy to spend $200 on that silly kit, but trying to convince him that it really is worth it to spend $200 on a Beta 52A for his kick has been, in a word, challenging. He's all sold on these CAD KBM412's that run $50 apiece.
So now the question: What are your general opinions of the following mics that fall between these two? (remember, this is a live application, not a studio recording) Are any of them going to provide a substantive increase in performance over the CAD?
Audix F-14/D-4
Shure PG-52
Samson Q
(other suggestions welcome)
Seriously, if it were up to me, he'd have the 52A's, a Rode NT4 (o/h), and 3 SM57's, and be done with this. However, I'm spending money on my own setup (just dropped a grand on PA reinforcement so the band leader will stop squawking about me playing the bass through the PA) so I can't spring for him too.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1897816 - 02/25/08 06:53 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Griffinator]
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 11866
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
I have the CAD KBM412...and I also have the Sennheiser 602.
I tried them both in a recording environment, and the CAD has been sitting in it's box for the last 4 years. 
Not sure how they measure up for live.
But let me ask you this Grif...forgetting the specific mics he is using for the moment...what exactly sucks about his drum sound?
I agree that better mics = better sound, but maybe you can help him get more out of his present mics by adjusting his application...?
I would think that unless you really needed the mics to carry the drum kit (like in a HUGE hall or arena)...most *decent* mics should be able to supplement his stage sound.
But...without hearing what you are hearing, it's hard to make specific recommendations.
The Audix stuff seems to get good points…but, they have so many models…so not sure which one will be an improvement over his present mic selection.
I had one of those 4-mic Audio Technica sets. Not sure why I even bought them, but they sat in the box, on a shelf, for a couple of years...and then I gave them to my studio drummer as a "Thank You" for doing some tracks one day, 'cuz he was in need of live drum mics for his band gig.
He said he really likes them...but I never heard them used live, so I can't comment further.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1897906 - 02/25/08 09:00 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: miroslav]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9354
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Miro, trust me, I've tried the mics he had in a variety of applications, both live and studio, on several different kits, and could never get a decent sound out of the kick mic. That's really the only thing I'm pressuring him to upgrade, and I just can't see, looking at the CAD's specs, where it'd be much of an improvement over his existing mics.
(edit)
It occurs to me, the kit you refer to is probably the same one he has.
Edited by Griffinator (02/25/08 09:01 AM)
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1897963 - 02/25/08 10:11 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: miroslav]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9354
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
OK, Senn 602 - I'll file that away in the "possibilities to throw at him" pile.
If I have to I'll spring for these and just tell him "when we go our separate ways, they're coming with me..."
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898377 - 02/25/08 04:58 PM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Griffinator]
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7294
|
|
Offline
|
|
I love that sucker play... 'drum' mics? Hmmm... that would indicate to me that they are not good enough to be 'real' mics. Seriously. look at the recordings and stages of the past.... do you see any 'drum' mics? The closest you come is the D-12, which, as a mic, pretty much sucks but was used on kick just because we were stupid enough to buy it in the first place (and we had 2.... sigh....) or its sibling the 112 and the Beyer version....both okay I guess....but never my go-to choice.
But WHO has spare dough to dedicate money to mics to only use for drums?
Meanwhile, a guy interested in saving money can usually get Shure 545s or similar (there were a bunch of these things from Shure, and also bearing the Radio Shack imprint, the numbers and letters designate varous housing and switching options) for abut $30 each or less (used, of course)and they are basically a 57 in a silver and black housing (various housings, as I mentioned above) and work very well on snare and toms. (Little trick, put one between the two rack toms pointed up with the capsule at skin level... great tom sound.)
For low budget overheads and snare, the Oktava MK or MC012 is hard to beat, and sold new for only $50, though I paid $265 each for a pair of the complete kits with pads and multiple capsules, just to see how they would compare with the bettter (and much more expensive) mics that we had.
For a kick I would pick an RE-20, undervalued Beyer M-88, or Sennheiser MD421. These are seldom found for low bucks, other than the 88, which often flies under the radar. But again, (depending upon the type of music...) you can drop in a cheap $100 condenser on the kick and get a much better sound than you'll find in a drum mic kit.
Anyway, I believe that the smart man puts his money into multipurpose mics that he can use on many things. He may not want to spend the kind of jack that a few of us have, and that is certainly fair enough. Just pick a pricepoint, and shop carefully.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898408 - 02/25/08 05:41 PM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 11866
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
I love that sucker play... 'drum' mics? Hmmm... that would indicate to me that they are not good enough to be 'real' mics.
Mmmm…...maybe not always a sucker play.
There are other mics often defined for more specific use...like "vocal" mics...or "overhead" mics...or "instrument" mics...etc.
I see "drum" mics as mics that are more tuned for drum frequencies, and made to withstand very high SPL's, though I agree that there are many multi-purpose mics that could be used on drums too.
But...if you are going to have mics that are always dedicated for the drums...then it may not be that important for them to be multipurpose, as you will not use them on anything else.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898434 - 02/25/08 06:23 PM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: miroslav]
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7294
|
|
Offline
|
|
There are other mics often defined for more specific use...like "vocal" mics...or "overhead" mics...or "instrument" mics...etc.
Not in recording.
Yes, there are 'vocal' mics for stage work. But the 251, 47, 67, 4038, 77, 44, or whathaveyou are not listed as 'vocal' mics, neither are the 451/460/480/83/84 listed as 'overheads' or instrument mics. A good mic is a good mic. For example, the RE-20, which makes a fine kick mic, was one of the more popular radio 'vocal' mics, and really takes the rough bright edge off of saxes and brass, almost as good as the 441. Few quality mics are listed as a specific purpose mic, though the manufacturer might make some recomendations. If you've got some specific examples, cool, but I can't think of any qaulity mics off the top of my head that are specifically called out like that, other than the ones I mentioned in my previous post.
Anyway, you gotta do what you gotta do, but as we've talked about before, I choose to buy one good thing rather than 6 or 8 mediocre things, whatever they might be.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898626 - 02/26/08 05:56 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 11866
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
There are other mics often defined for more specific use...like "vocal" mics...or "overhead" mics...or "instrument" mics...etc.
Not in recording.
My point is that often there are mics that are defined by the user (not the manufacturer) as their "vocal" mic or their "overhead" mics…etc… and than 9 out of 10 times they will reach for those specific mics when needed for those specific situations.
I think many people do that in the studio.
Sure...you can use a $3000 "vocal" mic inside a Kick drum and make it work...but I doubt you would. 
Instead, you will go more for other specific mics that you know work well for Kick...and so they become your go-to "Kick/Drum" mics....do they not?
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898634 - 02/26/08 06:08 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: miroslav]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9354
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Well, certainly, the Kick is one area where having a mic specifically designed to both capture sub-harmonic frequencies and withstand enormously high SPL's is advantageous. The rest of the kit can certainly be mic'ed up with items you'd use for other applications (57's for the toms and snare, the Oktavas or some other sort of pencil condensors for the overheads)
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898649 - 02/26/08 06:30 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Griffinator]
|
audiorulez
Gold Member
Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 510
|
|
Offline
|
|
Ever try singing into a Beta52 or D6? If not try it and you'll know why they are called kick drum mics.
My first question has to be does his kit sound good acoustically? If not, then it's a polish the poop scenario, and IMO the kit should be addressed before the mics.
AFA low budget, Those CAD mics are pretty poor quality. The Samson CO2's are great and stupid cheap ($120 pr with shockmounts) for overheads, a used 57 on Craigslist fetches $50, and a use Beta52 can be had there for not much over $100. That's $270 to cover kick, snare and overheads, a great start to a drum mic setup. A few more used 57's and you got good mics all around.
It's all kind of moot if the kit sounds like poo poo though.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1898678 - 02/26/08 07:01 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: audiorulez]
|
Griffinator
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 9354
Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
AR - kit sound is definitely not an issue here - his Gretsch sounds great, so does his full Mapex stage kit (10 pieces, double bass) - he used to have a Pearl that kinda sucked, but he got rid of that one.
Good call on the CO2's - didn't even think about them.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1899412 - 02/27/08 06:22 AM
Re: Live drum micing quandry.
[Re: Griffinator]
|
audiorulez
Gold Member
Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 510
|
|
Offline
|
|
Have you used them? (CO-2's) They are amazing, I cannot believe that for $120 you can buy 2 of these with shockmounts. The CL2's are also incredible, even at the new $299 price (They just went up from $160, again for a pair!!!)
I'm also not a big fan of the NT4/NT5, I find them a bit brittle, and very lacking in low end response. The latter is obviously not a big issue for live overheads, but IMO it adds to the brittleness of the mics. I'd much rather have CO2's than NT4/NT5's.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: FoxTick, Bunny Knutson
|
|
|
