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#1890508 - 02/12/08 04:33 PM

Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:)

Audionut
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Registered: 02/12/08
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Hi all:)

Been watching and reading this site for a long time, getting lots of great ideas and such.. thanks a lot..

Hoping someone can help me answer some questions:)
I looked everywhere in my area and cannot find any rigid fiberglass.. But I can find lots of Roxul Safe and Sound...

I would have preffered getting Rigid fiberglass because the info on here and elsewhere tells me it works great when layered together 4" and wrapped to make very good low frequency bass traps.. Plus it is simple, I like simple:) ..But since all I can get is Roxul I guess I'll have to build a frame to put this stuff in right? I think I can do that easy enough..

I would like to make 7ft tall traps and stand them across my corners just like I would have done if I had Rigid Fiberglass...(I am unable to secure traps to walls) But obviously If I just stack this stuff 7ft high and wrap it it probably won't stand up to well..

First question, If I do use 6 inches thick of Roxul, 2 ft wide and 7 ft tall would it be just as effective or better than 7ft of 4" thick 2 ft wide Rigid Fiberglass?

Second question, If it is just as good or better , do I have to build a frame for it (not a big problem) or is there another way of somehow making them stay together..(stand up) maybe a wire mesh type frame? probably too complicated:(

If I do make a frame (1"x6" board) could I just cover them up with good material and thats it, or should I go with the plywood in the front type and seal them leaving a space in between the plywood and Roxul.. And how would I seal them (so air won't escape)? just cover the entire trap with plastic to make it air tight? that would be easy enough I think:) Comments suggestion, would be greatly appreciated.

Michael

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#1890583 - 02/12/08 06:29 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Audionut]

Speaker Boy
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Santa Barbara, California

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Here is a link comparing absorption for many different companies and panel thickness. http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
It is a very nice site because it also has links to company websites.
Based on Roxul's stats the 6" Safe and sound(2.5 pcf) might be similar in low bass absorbtion to 4" thick 703(3 pcf). But if you can afford to give up 6" you might as well take full advantage and use 6" of 703. NOTE: Talking to several suppliers it appears that most mineral wool type materials are rated at peak density and not nominal. So a 6pcf peak density mineral wool would have a nominal density of about 4pcf. 703 is 3pcf nominal.

Where are you located? I can't believe there is not a place there who carries Roxul RXL60(6pcf) or 703 or could at least order it. Try calling an industrial supply store there and ask them who they think might carry that stuff.

Another thing you could do is call up different companies to find local vendors. I talked with Randy from Fibrex at 419-535-6245. Just tell him what you are looking for and what you are using it for.
These guys have a store locator
http://www.bayindustries.com/bay_ins/
You could also use ultratouch cotton insulation. Several people on here have used it. If you trust the numbers it is better than 703 at absorbing low bass frequencies. Plus you don't have to wear haz-mat gear to work with it. Although some people have mentioned it is quite dusty. I found 5.5in thick for $70 for 63sqft(2.5pcf). They also have a dealer locator.
http://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouch_tech_specs.htm

If you are not going to seal the panels to the walls--then you should not add a plywood membrane. Just build a wood frame or whatever frame you want. I cant think of anything wrong with putting mesh on the front and back and sides, but the more surface area you block the more absorbtion you are going to lose. Any mineral wool denser than 6pcf should be rigid enough not to need a frame, but it will look better and be easier to mount with a frame.

Edited by speaker_boy (02/12/08 07:01 PM)

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#1890626 - 02/12/08 07:24 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Speaker Boy]

Audionut
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Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 7

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Thanks speaker_boy:)

Wow those are great links and a lot of helpful information..thanks

I live in Eastern Canada, New Brunswick. I've contacted many hardware stores, and construction material outlets but none have the Rigid Fiberglass and seem to know little about it.. I will try again tomorrow and see if I can track some. I am also wondering how much this stuff will be for 4'x8' sheets. probably not very cheap.

If I do go with the Roxul, and use three 3" thick pieces and compress it to 6", I wonder if that would be better yet. Probably lose some of it's absorbtion value ?

I will check with some of the companies you gave me, and see if there are any local dealers of their stuff, the Ultra Touch Cotton sounds interesting enough..

Thanks for the help
Michael

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#1890662 - 02/12/08 08:35 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Audionut]

Speaker Boy
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Santa Barbara, California

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Canada really messes things up. You would think Canada would carry insulation at every corner store in town. I found several options here in Santa Barbara, CA and I don't even have insulation in my apartment(It was 80 yesterday).

You probably should just email/call Roxul, Fibrex, Bay insulation, Bonded Logic. And see what they can tell you. Randy at Fibrex was very helpful and knew what he was talking about if you can I would call him. Also they sell 703 on ebay for $80 for 6 2" 2'x4' sheets(48SqFt total). He might be willing to ship to Canada.

Mineral wool costs less than half the price of rigid fiberglass. It is about $48 for 2" thick 64sq/ft. The Bay Insulation dealer in LA seemed willing to ship anywhere as long as you paid shipping.

From what I have read you can compress the three 3" thick pieces to 6" and get better absorbtion than 6" uncompressed. Some people even use 12" pink fluffy stuff and compress it down to 4" to use for a bass trap. If the material is similar it is just all about pound per cubic foot(pcf).

It just seems so much easier to buy rigid fiberglass or equivalent if you can.

The Ultratouch cotton looks great on paper. Per Volume it is cheaper than Mineral Wool and has better low bass absorbtion. My only issue is that fact that it sounds too good to be true. In experience too good to be true means there is a catch. Plus I dont trust anything that is good for the environment. Those people use fuzzy math sometimes. I am going to pick some up this week to build my bass traps. I will let you know what I think.

Later
Jeff

Edited by speaker_boy (02/12/08 08:41 PM)

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#1890684 - 02/12/08 09:20 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Speaker Boy]

Audionut
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Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 7

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I must say I envy you $\:\)$ living in such nice weather.. We have had the most snow in the last 2 months than we had in the last three winters put together $\:\($ ..Just got done one storm two days ago (20cm) going to get another one tomorrow (15-20cm) .. O well:)

Thanks for all your great help..I will try and call randy tomorrow see what he can tell me..

If no luck for now, I will compress the Roxul and see how that works for me.. I'll let you know how it goes..
Doing some other room treatments too, so I'll be a while.. Enjoy the warm sun:)
Michael

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#1891042 - 02/13/08 11:54 AM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Audionut]

Speaker Boy
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Santa Barbara, California

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Here is a how to on building a compressed material bass trap. You might even just use the same material and everything. You should be able to find 8" R-25 thick fluffy stuff in your area. Maybe other people on here can comment on whether this will work well for you.

http://webpages.charter.net/jdgeisen/BassTraps/BassTrap1.htm

Jeff

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#1891117 - 02/13/08 01:56 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Speaker Boy]

Audionut
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Nice:) thanks for the link, probably use his ideas.

I just used two bags of the R28 pink stuff packed into my ceiling joists. My basement is only 7ft tall:( after packing the outer parimeter (double thick packed tight) and then all the other joists with just eight inch R28, I really noticed an improvement in the upper bass and mids.. Much tighter than it was, detail clearer, Made a significant difference..Happier:)

I was thinking I might cover up the R28 and floor joist with Sonopan, to keep the fiberglass from floating around the air..
Sonopan is suppose to be a good sound absorber too. I guess it has
a 15lbs/cuft density ratingAccording to brochure,$27.00 4'x 8' sheet.. Maybe this stuff would even make a good bass trap layered up? Its made of wood shavings and some kind of "wax"

I didn't call Randy today but did source out another local supplier of Owens Corning, hoping they would have Rigid Fiberglass 703.. he didn't even know what it was, I had to point it out to him from a brochure on his wall:) anyway he is suppose to call me back as soon as he finds out if he can get it, with prices:)

Michael

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#1891263 - 02/13/08 06:22 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Audionut]

Speaker Boy
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Santa Barbara, California

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What size room are you looking to treat? Have you done any measurements to see where the problem frequencies are?

I don't know about using the Sonopan on top of the fiberglass. That stuff is pretty dense. Plus they are an environmentally friendly company(You know how I feel about those) and they dont show any absorption coefficients. It looks like people usually use it as part of a sound barrier. It might absorb bass, but the more dense something is the less mid and high frequencies it absorbs. So your mid and high frequency absorption will change.

Ethan just recommends to put fabric over the fiberglass in setups like yours. Figure 3b shows a picture. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Maybe Ethan can comment on Sonopan as an absorber. It is made of wax and wood filling. It appears to be pretty rigid and I dont think it allows much air to flow though. I guess I really don't understand why it wouldn't work, but I don't think it would.
http://www.materiauxspecl.com/en/acoustic.html

Jeff

Edited by speaker_boy (02/13/08 06:25 PM)

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#1891288 - 02/13/08 07:12 PM

Re: Can't find Rigid Fiberglass but Lots of Roxul, Now what?:) [Re: Speaker Boy]

Audionut
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Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 7

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The basement room is 14'w x23'x7' concrete floor, all ceiling joist are exposed..
I havn't done any measurements, I use to have a Stereophile test cd with different frequencies, but can't seem to locate it at this time.

The fabric idea will work ok for me, didn't notice that from Ethans info page.. Thanks again.. I was a bit suspicious about the Sonopan changing mids and highs a little too much too. Best to forget about that for now.

I got my fingers crossed on the Rigid Fiberglass, hope he can get some for me:)

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